Questions on Club Foot - Update with X-Rays - Update *Hoof pictures!

[DiamondJubilee]

I did a search on here and on good old Google, but would love some advice on here as well as I have not had a horse or pony with a club foot before. Now my farrier is amazing and has been trimming my guy since I had him weaned at 5 months old (he is now 13 months) on a 7-8 week schedule and nothing looking amiss. He noticed a few months ago his left front was going a little clubby so we put him on a 3-4 week trimming cycle and he is slowly and carefully trimming his heel back. He asked me the other day to have the vet out so they can grade it (he thinks its a 1 or 2) and see if he should be doing something differently. He is happy with how it has been looking the past couple of months with the shorter trimming schedule, but wants the vets opinion as well. I have the vet coming out on Aug 2nd for health papers and have already asked them to look at him as well.

This is a wb/pony cross and has very long legs. Always has and he really hasn’t grown into them. I notice (and did mention this to my farrier) that he always grazes in that foal stance and his left leg is almost always the one thats back (so weight on that front left toe and heel off the ground). He mentioned maybe he should be fed with a hay net or have shorter turn out (currently on grass 4 acre paddock from 4am-2pm, then on small 1/2 acre dirt paddock from 2pm-8pm, then inside for the night with some second cut hay fed on the ground). I’m a huge fan of turn out and hate to cut him back - he was thinking he could be grazing less and not in that stance as much and to feed him inside with a hung hay net to stop or minimize that stance. I’m not a fan of hay nets due to the head up position, but maybe its a good idea?? We keep our grass about 6-8" long as we try to keep the grass not too short for the sugar content (I have 3 other ponies) and not too long as well. I read that a breeder with some club footed foals tried to keep the grass higher so they weren’t doing that foal split stance. But not sure if I want to let our grass grow too long?
I’ve also read overfeeding grain can contribute but I haven’t changed his feeding amount since I’ve had him and he’s getting mid range grain for his weight (about 4lbs of purina exel HD, 1lb purina athlete and 2lb essential K all split into 2 feedings - plus mad barns Omenity, natural vit E and a probiotic). He’s on pasture and then comes into 1 flake of second cut hay for the night but doesn’t usually finish it.

Any ideas before the vet comes out? Am I too worried as he could grow out of it with him being so young and having it addressed now or ? Farrier also said surgery could be a possibility but of course want to avoid that! I’ve attached a couple of not the greatest photos and he was fresh off his trim (2 days ago).

[sherian]

you’ll often here that called a “grass foot” in a baby and if it persists into adult hood as “high/low”, not uncommon in the long legged/short necked baby. The short trim cycle is a good idea, I will often leave the owner a rasp to do a bit at 2 weeks. I would be leery of cutting back turn out in baby as movement is critical for proper development in general. The xrays are a good idea and go from there. In my experience if you get on the short trim cycle early and keep it up the worst you end up with is a bit of a high/low conformation which to be honest doesn’t seem to bother many if they are kept on a regular farrier schedule. To me that does sound like a lot of feed for one with easy keeper blood, but I am not really familiar with purina feeds - may be a good idea to touch base with a nutritionist and have a good hard look at his body condition and joints for any abnormalities.

[DiamondJubilee]

“Grass foot” does make sense and I put him onto pasture (in Ontario) about 2 months ago which is when he started to get clubby. I actually didn’t put the 2 and 2 together until you mentioned that name!

He in not an easy keeper (my ponies are) and I would like some more weight on him actually, but he’s not too thin either - he’s lean but not ribby. I can for sure reach out to the Purina Canada rep and send them pictures and let them know of my issue. I’m sure they could always tweak what I have and maybe I am feeding him too much.

I’ll see what the vet says about xrays next week. They may want to do a set on him.

Not the greatest picture from so far away, but you can kind of see what his body condition is like and how long his legs are and short his neck is! My chubby ponies are beside him (14.2h and 15h).

[JB]

The foot that is forward all/most of the time, gets a sore and over-developed shoulder, and wears the heels more than the toe

The foot that is back all/most of the time, gets tight triceps, and wears the toe more than the heels.

More frequent trimming, every 2 weeks to take a few swipes to the high hoof’s heel, and the other hoof’s toe.

Get a massage therapist out to work on the triceps of the LF, and the shoulder of the RF

Have the MT show you the work they’re doing, and work on it a little every day, or every other day.

The age you listed is when most genetic clubs or just more upright feet start to appear.

I did all the above with mine exact same timeframe, and while he’s not going to have matching feet, they are a lot more matched now than what they started doing. It’s not really an over-feeding thing, mine was only ever on a ration balancer from 4 months on, and he wasn’t an overweight youngster (oh how I wish for those days LOL).

You can’t always just take the heels down on the more upright foot, because that ignores all the structures above it. All the things have to be worked on in tandem.

Keep the rasping frequent, which minimizes the differences, keep on the muscle work, and his movement patterns will start to change as well. It took a few months, but mine started doing the one-sided split stance much less frequently, and eventually he grazed normally, more or less even splits.

Yours may be a lower grade genetic club, but all the above still stands - frequent trimming to lessen the effects of his preferred stance, muscle work to not have that imbalance be a reason for him to stagger his stance full time

[Bonnie2]

That does not look just like a grass or foal foot. Highly recommend xrays ASAP.

[DiamondJubilee]

I had the vet out yesterday afternoon to take xrays of both fronts. They took some conformation photos from his knee down as well to show the surgeon (they just wanted to show they didn’t think the club foot was due to poor conformation).

The vet didn’t say too much as the xrays were going to a surgeon who specializes in club feet and surgery, but she did explain the check ligament surgery and the process. The surgeon should be getting back to me shortly. She said to continue to have the shorter trim cycles and I can help massage the area as others have suggested.

I just wanted to update incase this comes up with someone else in the future.

If he is a good candidate (I would think he would be), I will of course ask 1,000,000 questions, but I have heard of this surgery performed on a few other young horses with great success, so I would be leaning towards it for sure. I have also heard of a story where the owner did nothing about her club foot yearling but massaged the leg and did frequent trims saying the horse would correct itself and the horse totally buckled over after a few years and couldn’t do anything.

[shoer76]

This stuff is actually pretty simple when you break it down. The deep flexor inserts at the coffin bone and originates at the humerus. Therefore the angle of the shoulder joint will dictate the angle of the foot.

When you decide to trim some heel off the laminae is much weaker than the muscle and gives out creating a dish and short toe. Then it all cascades and you have a lame horse with surgeons wanting to cut ligaments…

[DiamondJubilee]

@shoer76- I’m not sure I follow you. Do you think it was a trimming issue or its because of the angle of his shoulder? How could this or could have it been prevented? I’m genuinely curious as I have no idea and its the first time I’ve faced anything like this!

[shoer76]

The upright foot is due to the shoulder angle. Actually, if you stand behind your horse, you might be able to see the shoulder blade sticking up a little bit higher on the low heel side. You can’t prevent it. The horse matures and naturally forms a preferred posture.

As far as trimming, look at the x-rays. Why is the sole so much thinner in the upright foot (vertical depth)? If you know trimming the heel is going to add pressure to the toe and cause a dish, reducing vertical depth and causing soreness at the toe, why would you trim the heel? If you leave heel the toe will start to grow and not dish. Eventually you should be able to trim even amounts of heel and toe.

[JB]

The upright foot isn’t caused by an upright shoulder. The horse wasn’t born with one scapula at a higher angle than the other.

Club feet aren’t caused by shoulders, they’re caused by genetics, Poor trimming can lead to “club” feet that are man-made. Injuries to shoulders can cause that foot to become upright due to movement changes.

The more upright the foot, the more it will affect the shoulder angle.

Horses with genetically upright feet, do have more upright scapulas. All else equal, they do mimic each other. Donkeys aren’t generally known for laid back shoulders `

What IS true is that you can’t just take heel off a club foot. That cascades all up the leg and is more likely to increase the angle, not decrease it.

[DiamondJubilee]

The vet got back to me saying the surgeon said “the club foot isn’t terrible but a check ligament desmotomy could help improve conformation right away. She says she does this in conjunctions with a shoe with a dorsal extension and has their farrier put the shoe on at the time of surgery or before. She also offered to have her farrier go out first and assess the yearling and put a shoe on and see how he does in it or he can go right ahead and book him in for surgery the week after next”

This was a text so I did ask for my vet to call me as I have 0 experience with a club foot and though I would prefer not to do surgery, I want to do whats best of course. I like the idea of having her farrier coming to see him and possibly trying a shoe to see if it helps.

[ThreeWishes]

Thanks so much for sharing ! Is the lipping on the front (tip) of the coffin bone on the clubby foot due to stress forces ?

[DiamondJubilee]

The vet who took the xrays did say the lipping (front L) is from the clubby foot and when I watch him graze, that FL is always back on the toe so I would assume a lot of his weight and stress would be put on there. His legs are crazy long right now and he still has that foal stance when he eats, even at 14 months old.

[shoer76]

The upright foot isn’t caused by an upright shoulder. The horse wasn’t born with one scapula at a higher angle than the other.

Club feet aren’t caused by shoulders, they’re caused by genetics, Poor trimming can lead to “club” feet that are man-made. Injuries to shoulders can cause that foot to become upright due to movement changes.

I don’t believe I said “caused”. If you want to dig a little deeper, the cannon bone on the low heel foot is thicker than the upright foot due to a weight bearing issue. As the horse develops its laterality the muscles will change the angle of the shoulders. The Germans call this crooked horse syndrome.

Trimming can change the Redden grading scale but it can’t cause a club foot.

The more upright the foot, the more it will affect the shoulder angle.

Actually, the feet are a reflection of the forces from above. Trimming does not affect anything above the fetlock.

What IS true is that you can’t just take heel off a club foot. That cascades all up the leg and is more likely to increase the angle, not decrease it.

I would say you should ask yourself why, but I’ll tell you instead. It’s because of the angle of the shoulder and the origination of the deep flexor muscle.

[shoer76]

The vet who took the xrays did say the lipping (front L) is from the clubby foot and when I watch him graze, that FL is always back on the toe so I would assume a lot of his weight and stress would be put on there. His legs are crazy long right now and he still has that foal stance when he eats, even at 14 months old.

You could always stand up and put one leg behind you on your toe and tell me how much weight bearing is on your toe compared to the forward leg.

The tipping of p3 is from the stress to the toe. I doubt the best care in the world is going to get around this. You do want to do what you can to minimize stress to the toe to prevent it from getting worse.

[JB]

@shoer76

I don’t believe I said “caused”.

when you say
“The upright foot is due to the shoulder angle”

that means the shoulder angle came first. Caused. I’m not sure how else to interpret that.

@shoer76

If you want to dig a little deeper, the cannon bone on the low heel foot is thicker than the upright foot due to a weight bearing issue.

I’ve never seen that researched, but I don’t doubt it can happen either, depending on how long the issue has been around

@shoer76

As the horse develops its laterality the muscles will change the angle of the shoulders. The Germans call this crooked horse syndrome.

Absolutely agree.

@shoer76

Trimming can change the Redden grading scale but it can’t cause a club foot

Right, you can cause a “club” foot by poor trimming, you can worsen a true club foot by poor trimming, but you can’t cause a genetic club foot by trimming

@shoer76

Trimming does not affect anything above the fetlock.

Trimming can absolutely affect everything above the fetlock. Poor hoof balances creates muscle imbalances above and through the body. Muscles supporting the whole shoulder sling can weaken the whole thoracic sling and allow the horse to “sink” into his sling and can change the angle and slope of the shoulder.

Look at any horse with NPAs, front or back. It changes the appearance of their muscles and their skeletal alignment above those legs.

[DiamondJubilee]

@shoer76

You could always stand up and put one leg behind you on your toe and tell me how much weight bearing is on your toe compared to the forward leg.

The tipping of p3 is from the stress to the toe. I doubt the best care in the world is going to get around this. You do want to do what you can to minimize stress to the toe to prevent it from getting worse.

Do you think the farrier who specializes in shoeing for this would be a good idea to come out and take a look and try using a shoe before thinking about doing surgery?

@JB - what would your suggestion be? To do some massage and try the farrier with a specialized shoe as well?

[shoer76]

@DiamondJubilee

Do you think the farrier who specializes in shoeing for this would be a good idea to come out and take a look and try using a shoe before thinking about doing surgery?

I would cancel your next 2 farrier appointments. Then question everyone why the vertical depth at the toe grew.

[JB]

That’s really pretty unhelpful

I would NEVER recommend ignoring a problem foot for 10-16 weeks. Maybe at 5 weeks the farrier checks things out and says “I like where this is going, let’s see what happens next”, but maybe he sees that things are heading South in a hurry. The last thing you want for unbalanced feet is for the imbalance to multiply

The opposite of “I think you’re farrier is doing a terrible job” is not to ignore the feet for 4 months.

[JB]

@DiamondJubilee

Do you think the farrier who specializes in shoeing for this would be a good idea to come out and take a look and try using a shoe before thinking about doing surgery?

@JB - what would your suggestion be? To do some massage and try the farrier with a specialized shoe as well?

Massage never, ever hurts. I would do that regardless of what your professionals recommend doing. If nothing else, it will help support progress if you choose surgery

I DO think you need to find a professional you trust, and go with their suggestion, after asking questions and doing homework.

There ARE lots of young horses with CL surgery who are quite athletic as adults, never any problems. But some don’t end up that way, and I don’t know any details that might suggest why that is.

What I DO feel is pretty certain is that something needs to be done now, while you can still manipulate bony development to some degree. That time is closing, but it’s not tomorrow, it’s just not as far out as a year. I think it’s absolutely worth a serious conversation with the other farrier - ask him why he thinks the foot is like it is, what he plans to do, the outcome he feels will exist, his thoughts on CL surgery, etc.