Quick question about a hoof injury! (UPDATE from good vet)

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

I’m speaking from the other side of the counter but withholding payment for services is a good way to make enemies and, believe me, word travels fast about problem clients.

I’m not saying that I agree with the treatment recommended by the first vet but you asked him/her for an opinion, took his/her time and you owe him/her payment for professional service provided.

Nobody is forcing you to use this vet ever again but the time may come that this particular vet is the only one available and an emergency is not the time to find out that you are on the “bad pay” list.

Not to mention that you could be turned over to a collection agency for the fee.

I’d advise paying the bill when it arrives and including a note describing your concerns over the recommended treatment, the treatment prescribed by your usual vet and the outcome. Maybe you can make the vet squirm and think a little deeper next time.

Nina

“We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan.”

Irving Townsend.

[Chanda]

Like I said the vet didn’t do anything and he is not charging me. No big deal.

The first wrap on Saturday was done by the barn manager. The first vet came out late on Monday and didn’t want to do anything. At the time I didn’t have anything to wrap the horse with. The Dr. didn’t want to wrap it and because of that the barn manager didn’t want to wrap it. I tried to tell the Dr. that I felt like something was more wrong with my horses foot that what the he thought but he didn’t listen. I can not MAKE the Dr. wrap my horses foot. He didn’t want to do anything and I can not make him. That doesn’t mean I have to like it though.

I called my regular Dr. when I got home that night and she called me back the next morning, confirmed what all of you said here and left soaking and wrapping supplies at the front desk for me to pick up on my way out to the barn (where I went immediately after the phone call).

I picked them up and went to soak and wrap his foot and it had already abcessed and come out of his heel. I soaked and wrapped that day and the other vet came out the next morning and confirmed that he should have been wrapped and that a swollen leg was a sign of something serious.

Everything seems to be going well now. I am soaking and wrapping daily, the swelling is down, he had his tentus shot and he seems to be doing well and healing. I wish the first vet would have done more but I can not control that. I was definitely very upset by him and what he did not do but I think I fixed that by having the other vet out and taking care of things.

I would have thought that you guys would have been proud of me for not listening to a vet I didn’t feel like I could trust and finding someone to REALLY help my horse, not yelling at me because I didn’t want to pay for shoddy vet work (which I am not getting charged for anyway). I am sorry that I was upset and made that post but I just want the best for my horse and that does not include using vets that see a problem and don’t want to do anything about it.

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[Triple_Crown]

HelloAgain beat me to it!

[lilblackhorse]

Yes Serendipity…

I look at it like this: He is either just getting over an injury, Has an injury, or is looking for a way to get injured again!

LOLOL-it IS life. That’s why God made horse insurance

“Perfect practice makes perfect.”

[Triple_Crown]

This board is often used for venting. I can understand Chanda being frustrated at the barn and at the vet and wishing she didn’t have to pay. But I doubt she was really going to stand there and refuse to pay!! I just thought she was getting some frustration out. No biggie. It seems to me that if you don’t like her problems and don’t want to help her, then don’t!

When you’re concerned and upset, isn’t it human nature to vent a little, especially to people you consider friends? I have to admit that I’ve dealt with a year-long problem that happened when the “right” people weren’t around. The accident was unfortunate and shouldn’t have happened, and the vet that was called (not mine) did not do all that great a job with the matter. But I wasn’t there and didn’t get the emergency message until too late…@#$% happens, and everybody makes mistakes (and nobody has a crystal ball!). Of course I paid and never blamed anyone…but sure I grumble from time to time to myself.

On a side note, I’d like to clarify that yes, my horses ARE indeed on a suicide mission. So there.

[Janet]

Pain threshold and pain tolerance are different.

Music has a very high pain threshold. But onse it crosses that threshold, she has NO tolerance whatever, and turns into a total wimp.

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:
The dentist let me stick my hand WAY into his mouth and feel the edges of his back teeth.

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you’re a braver person than I am! Hopefully his mouth was braced open? I have watched these dentists at work and can’t believe they don’t get chomped!

Glad things are going better. Feel free to vent anytime!

[AAJumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:
Great, thanks! It is good to know that Regumate might be a solution. That stuff seems to be a pain in the butt to handle but way worth it if it works.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It’s also really expensive!

visit www.victorianfarms.com

[Chanda]

Spotsnchrome, everyone has different ideas about what needs to be done with a puncture. Some vets say to wrap it with furacin, some say to leave it alone and watch it, some say to wrap with icthamol and so on.

I don’t think it is fair to say that I didn’t take care of it.

The barn manager of the layup facility used furacin to wrap it at first. This is something that they do commonly there.

The vet that came out the next day said to leave it alone because he didn’t think it went in that far and didn’t think it was a big deal. I personally didn’t feel that was the right thing to do so I called my regular vet as soon as I got home.

My regular vet told me to soak it in Epsom salts and wrap it with icthamol and I did.

Another vet came out the next day and said to not bother soaking it but keep it wrapped for two more days.

So in my estimation consulting 3 vets in 3 days and doing a lot of soaking and wrapping does not mean that I did not take care of it.

Yes, I did throw a bit of a fit about the vet that did not want to do anything and I apologized for that many times already. I was just worried about my horse. I was not used to dealing with that vet and did not know how to handle the situation. Sorry, I am not perfect.

My horse is perfectly fine and happy. Everything turned out just fine. I now know that I will not be using that one vet and I will always use my regular vets practice which has 4 wonderful vets to choose from.

Thank you for your concern. I love the wonderful help that everyone offered me in my time on need. It definitely lead me in the right direction.

NinaL, that is interesting! I am curious to see whether there really are hormones in his system. I pray that he does not have a retained testicle, that sounds like a nightmare. Since his ultrasound will not be for another month I am going to wait until then to do the blood test. His behaviour is not really a problem in the situation that he is in now. He basically just sits in his paddock all day and plays kissy-face with his friends. No one really handles him much so he should be fine until next month. They are also quite used to dealing with difficult animals there. Right now they have this little crooked legged Arab stallion that stands straight up on his hind legs and tries to clobber you with is front legs. Luckily Chase doesn’t do anything like that!

If it is all behavioural then I will have to deal with it. There is a girl at the farm where he is at that is great with difficult horses. She really likes Chase and wants to help me work with him. She will teach me how to be the leader and help me teach Chase that he must respect me. I am very excited to have met such a wonderful and giving person. She also wants to ride him when he is all healed and told her she is more than welcome to.

Hopefully everything will turn out OK.

Bowed tendon: 62 days down, minimum 28 days to go.

[Ghazzu]

I’m with those who would advise against pulling these things out in general–the best way to handle them is to do a quick radiograph with the wire in place to see how far it penetrated.

There was no way of telling before you barn manager pulled it out whether it was into the coffin bone or joint space, and these tend to seal over as soon as you remove them, so it can be difficult to tell afterwards.

(Obviously, if one is half a mile out in the pasture and there is a long bit sticking out, this isn’t always possible.)

I would give your DVM a jingle–if your horse hasn’t had a tetanus vaccination since last spring, get it done now.

[lilblackhorse]

yes, that is true too. I just did the “cellulitis because of an abcess” thing…all cellulitis needs is an “in” to get the bacteria or whatever into the tissue. Will’s got in thru his abcess via a heel bruise. Go figure.

“Perfect practice makes perfect.”

[Chanda]

The first vet was called early that morning and he said that he could look at my horse as well as the one he was originally seeing that day. It was his choice to either look at him or not so I assumed that when he said he would look, that he really meant he would look.

I have talked my my regular vet and have done what she recommded (soaking and wrapping). The owner of the practice that my regular vet works for is coming out tomorrow to see another horse and also said he would have time to look at my horse as well. My regular vet said this would be nice to have him look since he will already be there instead of her making a special trip.

When I did the soaking and wrapping today I also found an area on the back of his heel that ‘looks’ like an opening that might be draining ‘stuff’. This really concerned me so I think that I will ask the vet if we should put him on antibiotics. My regular vet said that if they are tender on the foot OR there is swelling (which there is) that they should be on antibiotics.

The barn manager told me today that the first vet that saw him yesterday is a kind of ‘wait and see’ vet and she thinks of my vet as a ‘do something now’ kind of vet. Since I am a paranoid horse owner I think I prefer the ‘do something now’ vet!

Bowed tendon: 42 days down, minimum 18 days to go.

[Louise]

What would you do differently next time?

I think that you are right, that people are upset with you. And I am sure it is because you dilly-dallied so much, between the time that the first vet said not to wrap, and the second time. You didn’t have wrapping materials? You could have gone to a tack store, and picked up vet wrap, icthomal and any other medical supplies you need, gone to any drug store and picked up either rolled cotton, or baby diapers. You needed to just get the job done, and get it done fast.

You were lucky, Chanda. That is the truth. This situation could have ended up much differently.

What should you do differently? Start keeping a basic medical supply kit at home. There are threads here, and I believe on Off Course, that tell you what to have in these kits. Carry a kit in the car, on the ocassions when your horse is boarded. Horses are going to hurt themselves, and you cannot always depend on someone else to have what you need.

And, do some reading about horse care. Learn, learn, learn - so that the next time something like this happens, you will be better prepared.

One thing for you to think about. If I am reading right, you are kind of in the middle of nowhere. You need to start thinking about what you would do if your horse coliced. Talk to your vet about keeping a tube of banamine paste at home. Yes, you may have to throw it out if it expires and get a new one, but, that would be better than having a very painful horse and no way to alleviate his pain until the vet gets there. Give the banamine only with the vet’s permission, of course.

Also, make sure you know who to do your horse’s vitals. Pulse, respiration, temperature and capillary refill are all important. You would need to know your horses normal stats, so that you could tell the difference. If, when you call the vet, you give him the horse’s current stats, you can help him make a decision about just what state your horse is in. If there is no one around who can teach you these things, talk to your vet about it. I know mine is glad to explain how to do all these things, if it is in conjunction with a routine call, and he knows ahead of time that the customer wants a short course about how to!

Always remember, that, ultimately, this horse depends on you for his well being.

---

“We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that’s just the cowboy in us all.”
Tim McGraw

[This message was edited by Louise on Mar. 08, 2002 at 07:37 AM.]

[Seven]

Interestingly enough my vet (was just out on Wednesday morning to check on an abscessed hoof) RECOMMENDED “poulticing” (her word not mine) the abscess with furacin and not ichthamol. We discussed it for a few minutes and she thought furacin was better. I’ve always used ichthamol, hoof packing, or that anti-whatever poultice that I can never spell the name. I decided to follow her advice, even though I’m not 100% convinced that furacin was a better choice. We’ll have to see.

FWIW, Chanda, you can get ichthamol at some grocery stores and most Walmart/K-Mart type stores… it’s a human medicine too.

Also, I don’t think anyone is ‘making you feel bad’ or trying to teach you a lesson by being harsh. First, I think that some people are posting suggestions and questions to you to help you think through the process so that it might turn out differently next time. What if the ‘bad’ vet is the only one available next time? Won’t it be better if you’ve already chosen a course of action based on this discussion, if he’s your only choice?

Second, I think they post these suggestions and queries to increase the pool of knowledge available on the board (I know I do). So not everything or everyone is coming down on Chanda…it’s more like “okay, what can you do differently next time and what can we all learn from this?” Whenever someone posts about any situation it provides us the ability to discuss it and perhaps explore every alternative. Without those types of queries, we can’t continue to learn and your post about Chase’s foot just gives us one of those opportunities.

Third, No one can MAKE you feel bad…only you can choose to feel bad if you want to. If you don’t like what they are saying, you can also choose to ignore it…but you don’t have to let it get to you.

Best of luck with Chase and I hope that he gets to come home soon!

=^+^=

I just haven’t been the same since that house fell on my sister.

[Bumpkin]

Chanda I thought you insured Chase when you went to France?
I recall a thread about it awhile back.
That should cover this injury.

“Have You Hugged Your Trainer Today?”

[JB]

Chanda, you are more than welcome to my board if this is just too hurtful to you Everybody second guesses themselves after the fact at some point or another. Everybody has been guilty of second guessing someone else at one time or another. Nobody does exactly the right thing all the time. Think of why Chase is where he is now - he’s there getting the rest and attention he needs because CHANDA made the decision to have someone look at his leg which was feeling sort of funky. Seems to be a reasonable owner here!

[shelly]

I think what I have learned from this thread is that we, as the usual caregivers of our horses, need to be able to question the vet’s opinions and recommendations.

I keep my horses at my place and I know my horses. A few years back one of my geldings was literally covered in hives that burst and oozed and he was swollen and uncomfortable. My preferred vet assumed it was an allergic reaction and had given him a shot of Azium which reduced the swelling. Then all of the allergy testing began… One day during this waiting period, he started to swell up again to the point that I had to go out to him every 20 minutes to loosen his flymask. I went to the vet’s (a block away) to try and get another shot of Azium. My regular vet wasn’t working that day so I spoke to the newer vet. I explained the whole situation and he figured that the horse would be fine without any Azium. I knew my horse was not fine and I knew that I explained the situation well. I calmly looked straight at him and told him that his answer wouldn’t do and to get my vet on the phone now. He did so, hung up and I received the Azium, along with Azium powder to use when necessary. My horse did well but did require Azium off and on for a few months and after a year of allergy shots is now fine I did not harm the relationship that I have with the vets (as I remained quiet, calm, and polite the whole time) I just knew that his decision was made too quickly and I was not comfortable with it.

[Chanda]

I can tell already that some of his problems were related to his teeth. The dentist was so amazing, she knew right away that he was stiff to the left because that side of his teeth were worse.

The dentist was actually a Holistic Dentist and did everything by hand (no machine). She took almost 2 hours and did everything very slowly giving Chase a chance to rest by going back and forth between the molars, the canines and his front teeth. She even used some peppermint ‘oil stuff’ in his mouth to make him feel fresh at the end of the whole thing. He loved it!

The look in Chases eyes at the end definitely showed me that he had been in some pain before and feels much better now. It was obvious. And, yes, I feel terrible for trusting my vet again although I am sure it was not her fault. I also looked way up into his mouth everytime he yawned and was not able to see that there was anything wrong. The points on the sides of his molars were hidden by the tounge and cheek. Also the only area that was not level with the rest of the molars was the very very back, very hard to see and impossible to feel. She said it was like last time they used a machine that couldn’t reach all the way back there or it bumped into the last molar and stopped, not realizing that that last tooth was there.

I had heard of equine dentists but had no idea how to find one or even if my horse needed one. If I had not been out at the barn on Sunday (when they are normally closed) taking off Chases hoof bandage I never would have met this dentist. It was kind of freaky. I kept telling her through the whole process how terrible I felt that no one knew his mouth was painful and she told me that it was OK and that we were meant to meet at this time. That now I can keep moving forward with Chase a little bit at a time as I am chipping away and what was making him so difficult.

Unfortunately I think I found a couple more problems with him that I need to work on before he will be ready to come back. When I described some of his ‘stallion like’ behaviour to the dentist she became really concerned. She said that she was not sure what could be done about it but that it was NOT normal for a gelding to act like that. I decided that when Chase goes for his ulrtasound that I will have a blood test done to determine if he really has any unwanted hormones running through his veins.

Also, she noticed that his sacrum area was very sensitive to the touch. You can rub it and he is fine but if you just lay your hand over the area he raises his head and looks very uncomfortable with his ears back. This will be something that I will have to figure out what to do about. She suggested massage, acupuncture and essential herbs or oils (I don’t quite understand that last one yet). Luckily my friend just got certified for massage therapy about a year ago and Chases old owner is an acupuncturist. I was thinking a chiropracter might be helpful too.

I love the fact that we are chipping away at Chases pain, one thing at a time. I know that most of this pain was there before I even bought him. He is just so stoic that he didn’t waive a big flag to tell me. Pretty soon he will be feeling great and just might become bonded to me, that is as much as I can hope for.

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go.

[JER]

There are some things you could try before Regumate. It’s not something you want to get involved with unless you have to. Here’s a suggestion:

I have a very studly older QH gelding. He is a problem around other horses (he’s a real brawler) and requires some special handling at all times. He gets 1 1/2 oz. of chasteberry (Vitex) twice a day and he’s actually manageable. Vitex (an herb), used for PMS in humans, is a natural hormone regulator. It’s shown great promise as a Cushing’s treatment, makes mares more emotionally stable, and also has the anti-stallion effect on geldings. And no side effects.

Also, if your horse is eating alfalfa, you might try switching to timothy (preferably) or bermuda. Amazing how this can affect a horse’s behaviour.

[Chanda]

On Saturday I went out to visit my horse at the lay-up facility and found a thick piece of wire from the fence sticking into the bottom of his hoof. It pulled out easily but had a tiny bit of bloody goo on the wire. It did penatrate into the hoof but I can’t see how far it went (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch) because it was in the crack on the side if the frog. The barn manage put some furacin onto the area and wrapped it up really well.

I am going to go out this morning and take the bandage off and check it out. There is a vet coming by this afternoon that I can share a farm call with to look at his hoof. How will I know if I need to have the vet look at it? What are some signs that it is not just a small superficial puncture? I have some icthamol from when he had an abcess, would that be a good thing to use on a puncture, to draw out any infection? I would hate to spend money on the vet if all they are going to do is tell me to slap something on it and wrap it.

This is why I hate boarding! Old fences!

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[This message was edited by Chanda on Mar. 06, 2002 at 01:18 PM.]