R+ & Competing? (or alternative training methods)

I’m BIG on voice. My fjord drives and is very responsive to vocal cues. The first time I got into a dressage ring at a schooling show, the judge gave me a warning about using voice, didn’t dock me but said she would in the next test. News to me LOL and I wasn’t loud, but she could see my mouth moving. As far as aides go…that is the least offensive to me over a whip or spurs. I see voice in the same light as seat/legs/hands but prefer to use voice as my first step to whatever we’re doing.

I’m current riding in western tack now and school more working equitation elements/tests. We had our first WE show last year, no issues on voice. I’m not big into showing at this point and doubt I will ever be, but that left a bad taste in my mouth as a nobody in the show world.

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This is such a good point. As the work gets harder the horse’s “buy in” is not really a consideration. And it’s difficult to keep hard work like dressage enjoyable, because the ask is so antithetical to a horse’s preferred way of going.

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I never actually used a clicker with my fourth horse because he picked up on a verbal “Good boy!” as the click before I could dig my clicker out. He was highly food motivated. He actually figured out that his actions affected the food before I even actively tried to use it! That’s why I used clicker/“Good boy!” training.

I did use R+ simultaneously with the usual pressure cue/release (is that N-?) of training under saddle. The pressure cue was removed, and the “Good boy!” followed by a carrot chunk in response to the correct action. My horse did slam the brakes on and look for his carrot. I was concerned about it being a problem later on, but he stopped looking for the food reward when he grew confident about the right response to my aids. He used to puff up a bit proudly and continue doing the thing when I said “Good boy!”

It was a cycle. New things got the anxious stop and turn for carrot, with the sense of “Was that really what you wanted? Did I get it right?” As confidence grew the stop got softer and then disappeared. I used voice and neck rubs/scritches as the reward more as he kept doing the thing.

I recently saw a video about an experiment on dogs. The dogs were trained to lie in the machine used for brain scans, and shown a toy which was immediately followed by either food or verbal praise. The dogs’ brains showed different responses to the reward types, with the verbal praise getting a much higher response.

Food is the usual reward, and probably the best way to get most animals’ attention. Non food rewards can be used as well, once the animal has developed the understanding of the action reward connection. Use of non food rewards allow for R+ training under saddle more easily.

The point of the click is to mark the instant of desired behaviour/response. It is the promise of reward coming, not instant reward. Clicking multiple times before rewarding does work to build a more complex response, which can become a single response/action. Like training to pick up a foot - first shift weight off the foot, then lift the foot, then allow the human to catch the lifted foot, then put it down, then hold the foot, then move the foot, then pick it out. It’s not necessary to wait until the lift is perfect before trying to catch the foot, and is better not to as that isn’t the end goal.

Last note: The first time I did clicker training was with my then 4yr old when he was healing from an injury. He was going well WTC under saddle at the time of the injury. When I started riding again I attempted to use clicker training under saddle, but he was entirely uninterested and irritated at being stopped to have a treat offered. While he has never been particularly food motivated, my experiences suggests that bringing the R+ into riding from the start might make it a better tool.

I got docked for voice when my horse spooked at someone on the other side of the bushes by the dressage ring, and I reassured him verbally. It was kind of your judge to inform you of a rule you didn’t know and let you off with a warning.

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It sure was, I very much thanked her for that. We ultimately ended up with the highest score of a 69 on that test too!

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I would like to learn more about R+/clicker training. My young horse now self loads into a trailer once he figured out there were always treats in front. My older boy, though, is not food motivated at all. To H*** with treats if its not something he wants to do. My two dogs are that way - one would climb mount Everest for a treat - exceptionally easy to motivate. My other dog, only did obedience/tricks because i asked her to - never because she wanted a treat.

However, when it comes to riding - I find riding more like a continuous conversation, rather than simply a +/- of pressure. Sure it is, but the aids can be actually extremely subtle. My non-treat motivated horse is very fun to ride that way. And yesterday was a fitness day. He was just about bouncing on his tippy toes to get going. I honestly think horses, when treated fairly and when they understand their job, really like to do the work.

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I think horses respond well to voice aides, including one I use with a food treat, to associate that word/tone with the treat. I use specific ones on the ground then in the saddle they help the horse transition to weight and leg aides.

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I’ve had the same thought but zero skill to execute. It seems like you could use an spl style tube that was braided into the mane in a section or two and connects to some type of thumb or index trigger and a worming halter concept streamlined.

R+ while riding IS possible. I use it all the time, though not exclusively.

Example, my new guy had insecurity issues trotting under saddle when I got him. No physical problems that we could find. Teeth good. Saddle fit good. Checked all the things. Always kept physical causes in the back of my head, but decided to try R+ to help him.

First, clicked when he transitioned into trot, then stopped and treated. Then clicked when he did about three trot steps. Then five. Then half a circle. Then a full circle. Then down the long side. Then a more forward trot. Building the duration a little more as his confidence, strength, and balance grew. Now, trot is absolutely no big deal to him and he’s starting on lateral movements.

It’s possible, it just requires a bit of planning and being able to adapt as needed to break steps down further. It’s like any training method, you have to learn the hows and whys, and be able to apply it correctly and be intentional about everything. Little things are important, like making sure to change which side you feed from while in the saddle, not allowing the slamming on the brakes, the horse having to wait patiently until you offer the treat with the head straight and not turning around, etc.

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I have learned about R+ training from dog training (agility specifically). The reward is not always food. Many dogs prefer a toy or a good game of tug. My young dog is happy for verbal rewards. It turns him to mush. As I learned more about positive training from working with my dogs, it has changed my riding. I think for the better.When I ride my horse, I do not use food rewards, but I consistently praise verbally and with pats.

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I just bought and received “Bridleless Riding - Using Positive Reinforcement” by Claire Bruff off Amazon. I will report back after reading!

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Among other names mentioned here, Warwick Schiller is a notable “convert” to R+ training and from what I recall is quite humble about it.

I have done a good bit of R+ work with my cats and a small amount with my mare. I have never used a clicker because I don’t have the coordination to click, treat, and interact with the animal simultaneously. Instead I say “good girl/boy” in a very distinct voice as the marker. It seems to work very well. An advantage of this is that you can still “mark” a behavior while in the saddle. Even if the horse doesn’t get a treat, the mental linkage between the marker and the behavior should still remain. It’s not nothing.

While it is certainly far beyond my skill set to train a horse to do a passage with R+, I still think there’s value in “trick training” a horse. It teaches them that collaborating with humans can be fun and rewarding, it can improve your bond and ability to read one another’s body language.

The thing is that all training (R+/R-, etc) of animals comes down to feel and timing. This is a skill that takes time and effort for a person to develop and some never do. Without these skills, the result is a confused, frustrated animal and/or a cookie monster brat. This is why I think it can be a little dangerous to insist that everyone should be clicker training their animals. (Or training them at all, for that matter). There’s a lot of nuance that goes on with natural horsemanship as well that you just can’t learn in a fifteen minute youtube video. For this reason, some folks may be better off to stick to what they know.

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Ingrid Klimke does, especially when starting horses in hand over fences. I have used it in hand for things like shots, clipping, trailering and introducing to fences, and I also have used it under saddle for things like teaching free walk, trot lengthening, halts, and standing quietly at mounting block. I like Tik Maynard’s masterclass series, especially the one on introducing horses to spooky obstacles.

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I haven’t been using it as much with a marker lately, though I’ve still been rewarding with food (carrot chips are great for under saddle BTW) for things. I’m thinking about using the clicker to help solidify some things that aren’t quite the quality I’d like, though. Maybe I’ll video if I do :joy: