R+ & Competing? (or alternative training methods)

[leighbo009]

With everything that has come out with CDJ within the last couple of days (hours), it got me thinking. Is anyone training at upper levels using more R+ methods? Not even fully positive reinforcement, but some?

I feel that the social license debate to equestrian sports will be under the microscope, so curious if there is some working towards the highest level using positive reinforcement rather than the harsh methods seen in that video. I think most hope to fall between the 2 levels typically, but I want to find someone toeing the line of too positive than too negative I think & would like to have some examples?

My hope is this ramble of thoughts makes sense.

Edit: Honestly I don’t know enough about the different training methods, so discussion can be on R+ & R- & others - I don’t know enough about any of them and thought it could be an interesting discussion.

[RAyers]

Too late. The sport is now under a total public microscope. I’ve seen articles about CDJ suspension in everything from our local news to the Guardian.

We have finally lost control of any narrative.

At this point there is no easy way to explain training methods to the general public without a concerted effort by the FEI, USEF, etc.

I can think of no examples of trainers who are perfect, or “toeing the line,” as you suggest. The entire methodology of training is too complex. It’s no different than training in any other sport and we continue to see human abuses in those, yet they are accepted.

[Jealoushe]

Andrew Hoy and Chris Burton both do, there was a bit of a series on it with Burton on H&C

[Scribbler]

@leighbo009

With everything that has come out with CDJ within the last couple of days (hours), it got me thinking. Is anyone training at upper levels using more R+ methods? Not even fully positive reinforcement, but some?

I feel that the social license debate to equestrian sports will be under the microscope, so curious if there is some working towards the highest level using positive reinforcement rather than the harsh methods seen in that video. I think most hope to fall between the 2 levels typically, but I want to find someone toeing the line of too positive than too negative I think & would like to have some examples?

My hope is this ramble of thoughts makes sense.

I do a lot of R plus tricks and ground work. It’s amazing.

I cannot make R plus work in the saddle for anything other than fast stops because you need to halt to treat, and that gets in the way of fast work.

I see R plus trainers claiming you can use it for everything but they end up barely or not riding. I don’t mean not competing. I mean they stop even sitting on their horses or trail riding.

I see nothing wrong with R minus, meaning pressure and release. If everything is going well, horses end up responding to very light pressure cues that don’t cause discomfort (a weight shift to halt or turn, a brush of the calf to trot).

But when the competition standards in a discipline evolve to include ways of going that are painful, frightening or very unnatural to horses, then the rider has to up the pressure to painful levels to overcome the horses nature, and may forget to release.

The CD video is ridiculous. The horse is being held in heavy contact such that he can’t go forward then being whipped on the legs to go forward into collected canter. It’s not a legitimate training modality. It’s a short cut

You get collected canter in other ways, and it’s not a “cruel” thing to a horse that’s fit and sound, and is ridden correctly.

[clanter]

@RAyers

Too late. The sport is now under a total public microscope

Start a long time ago

Anna Sewell when she wrote Black Beauty in 1877 stated her purpose in writing the novel was “to induce kindness, sympathy, and an understanding treatment of horses” and was not intended to be a child’s book about horses

[leighbo009]

Honestly I was asking more for my own information on how to be better. I know the sport is under the microscope and I don’t think we can fix it, but it made me start thinking about myself & how I train my own horses.

[TimeForAHorse]

Jenku Dietrichsen (https://dressageadventures.com/) seems to include at least some R+ in his training. He uses a marker signal and food rewards. I’ve gone through most of his “Adventures with Jenku” content and he does incorporate some R+ and certainly plenty of standard R-. I think what he does in his “Scatterproof” course has some strong parallels to CAT/CAT-H constructional approaches, if you are familiar. I believe he’s helped train some fairly competitive riders, and is based out of S. Africa. I did appreciate that his horses seemed generally happy, calm, confident, not over-threshold during training.

Shawna Karrasch and Jessie Hillegas are very interesting. I am part of their membership and think they are pulling in the right general direction. They are very R+ and Shawna brings the science, while Jessie is a H/J trainer that - interestingly - is a convert to R+ from a pretty traditional, successful H/J background. I think their base right now is mostly beginners and folks that are new to R+, but I hope to see them really grow over time.

Clicker Expo actually has some horse components now! When I attended virtual Clicker Expo a couple years back, I signed up as a mentee in their mentorship program and was paired with Mary Kay Hasseman, who I believe incorporates R+ into dressage work. I think you(g) can get a lot out of Clicker Expo and other really cutting edge R+ sources (regardless of species) IF you are pretty self-motivated and a little nerdy. I would also recommend having a look at FDSA (https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/) - yes, it is largely dog-centered, but I recently took a great class with my horse and got a lot out of it. There are some classes offered that are open to multiple species, including horses.

Monty Gwynn, Alexandra Kurland, and Michaela Hempen are, of course, some of the names in R+ horse-dom that I can think of. I have read Kurland’s recent book… I have to say, her writing style/presentation-style is REALLY not my cuppa tea… but she does have some nuggets in there. Her understanding of errorless learning is excellent (…even if it does get mushed in with a bunch of fluff in her book…).

I guess - slight tangent - I would reeeeally love to see more horse people get into the science of behavior far enough to understand quadrants, operant vs. classical conditioning, CER, markers, etc. Some of those basics that explain why a certain training approach may (or may not) work. R+ with horses is remarkably fun, and I’ve been pleasantly surprised that nearly all of the myths I’ve heard (and believed!) about food and horses are totally untrue.

[leighbo009]

That is what I was wondering. I think I train more in R-, but I don’t know much about R+/R- fully. So I more so am interested in learning more. But the pressure and release sometimes morphs into something with too much pressure and not enough release, so how much is too much? I guess I just want to learn more about things I don’t know enough about.

[TimeForAHorse]

Hey, if you ever want to bounce around some R+ ideas, I’m always happy to brainstorm and troubleshoot! I’m in the process of starting my two 3-year old colts R+ and so far, so good! I got into R+ after learning about training and behavior with my dogs in dog sports.

…open offer to anyone! Always happy to chat R+ stuff without judgment.

[TimeForAHorse]

A few more names:

• Anat Shalev, I believe she teaches (possibly intermittantly) through Tromplo. She is not your “competitive rider,” but hot damn everyone should have a good look at some of the amazing stuff she’s done with cooperative care (I think Monty Gwynn also does some fantastic cooperative care stuff). She’s also done some great work on building forward movement and different movement pattens and such.
• Leslie McDevitt, of Control Unleashed fame, is also into horses and does some Control Unleashed patterns with horses. I have definitely utilized some patterns and games with my own horses to good success. I’d love to see more folks integrate this type of approach for spooky/flighty horses, and when helping horses process challenging environments.
• Edit as I think of more: Mustang Maddy - I haven’t taken her stuff, but I believe she’s also a convert to R+ after a more NH background(?) and is doing tons of riding work, as well as liberty.

[FjordBCRF]

@Scribbler

I do a lot of R plus tricks and ground work. It’s amazing.

I cannot make R plus work in the saddle for anything other than fast stops because you need to halt to treat, and that gets in the way of fast work.

I operate this way too. I regularly get comments about how “good” Charlie is and our bond and whatnot. Full disclosure…he is a low energy highly food motivated fjord which I have to attribute some to our “success”.

At the end of the day, I spend a lot of time on the ground with him, hanging out with no asks, or riding bareback and he gets loads of positive reinforcement in addition to engaging his brain with all sorts of silly stuff. We had the bubble machine in action just last night.

I haven’t seen many people at the barns I’ve been really prioritizing that kind of thing.

[beowulf]

I incorporate some R+ into my program, but found that the timing and reward you need to consistently shape behavior gets more difficult when you are on their back. For a while, I was clicker training under saddle. I used R+ for standing (and STAYING) at the mounting block, for leg yields, shoulder yields, and some unmounted “games” like jumping a target fence, ditch, scary objects. I have a better partnership with my one gelding because of the clicker training - he is always watching me and interested in what I am doing. It is so obvious that even bystanders comment on it. Before I did this with him, he wasn’t very interested in interacting with me. Once he realized we had a “language” we could share where I would listen, he was a totally different horse.

I did not have as much success continuing this into riding behavior, which could be operator error. As I started building more complicated asks he would hear the clicker and slam on the brakes, expecting his treat. It’s possible to wean off treats entirely with clickers, but this did not work for my gelding. I have had good luck doing this with dogs, but not horses.

I think it’s possible to have a mix of R+ and R- and have a genuine partnership with a compliant, happy to work horse. Horses are mostly willing to work with you[g]. There is nothing inherently wrong with R- applied fairly, this is fundamentally how horses communicate and is a natural language for them. As riding behaviors become more complicated, I think R- is necessary and it’s difficult to use only R+ to shape behaviors you’d like with very complicated asks like, for instance, Pi/Pa and true collection.

What I’ve found helpful is recognizing when a horse is at his threshold - and stopping before that point. That is different from horse to horse and a separate issue from R-, but relevant.

[Highflyer1]

I think Tik Maynard is probably the best UL competitor example.

[Marigold]

@Highflyer1

I think Tik Maynard is probably the best UL competitor example.

I have no personal experience here, so this isn’t a reference, but Mia Farley repeatedly talks about the groundwork she incorporates in her program (which was handed down to her as an OCET student). Not necessarily R+ but seems to be of the natural horsemanship angle. Most detailed example here:

The O’Connors did a lot of the groundwork through the Parellis [who teach natural horsemanship]. That thing is called a carrot stick, and it’s a hard, heavy stick. You break [young horses] in rope halters, and you teach them to yield away from the stick. It’s basically an extension of your arm. So then when you’re riding them, instead of having a bit in their mouth and pulling them around, you can steer them with the stick. So, you put it on either side of their head, and they’ll move to the opposite direction. I really like it because it makes it 10 times easier to teach them how to jump. They’re always looking forward, and it’s always forward momentum. Whereas when you put a bit in their mouth, the rider can make a mistake and pull back instead of leading, and then they are not looking at the jump, and it’s a whole snowball effect. But I think it’s a very natural way of doing it.

That’s another thing we do when we break the babies: We always have a neck rope on them. Along with the carrot stick, you can also teach them to steer with a neck rope. When you yield away from the carrot stick, you can pull the neck rope with the other hand in that direction when you’re trying to get them to yield. Then eventually you can take the carrot stick away, and if you pull the neck rope, they learn to follow the neck rope.

Amy Bowers, who comes and helps us in the wintertime, was like, “Why don’t you ride Phelps in a neck rope?” And I was like, “Good idea!” And she was like, “Well, I was just kidding.” I got on him, and he remembered. He was like, “Oh, yeah.”

It’s so interesting too, the difference. You can go jump Phelps in a neck rope, and he jumps actually a lot better than with a bridle and bit. That tells me I’m doing something that’s blocking his natural way of going. I think that’s what’s really cool. You can kind of go back to how they actually do things to see what you’re doing that’s preventing them.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/the-mia-farley-and-phelps-story/

[GraceLikeRain]

@Highflyer1

I think Tik Maynard is probably the best UL competitor example.

Does he report to use exclusively R+ training?

[Willesdon]

@beowulf

…
What I’ve found helpful is recognizing when a horse is at his threshold - and stopping before that point. That is different from horse to horse and a separate issue from R-, but relevant.

A very good point. Yesterday I went with a friend to visit her Eventer and the young Professional who competes him up to 5*. We had an interesting discussion, when looking at all the horses on the yard, about the different characters so evident in each horse. The young purpose-bred sport horses are all keen to work, have natural ability and show enthusiasm about jumping over things. The big, handsome gelding who is the result of an accidental breeding in a field is very willing to go out hacking but he really prefers to just chill. Not bred for sport!

[Sister7]

I’m planning on restarting my new 3 year old OTTB with R+. I’m an engineer and have had the idea for years to figure out some kind of system that squirts a liquid reward while riding. I’m planning on starting experimenting with this soon, would love to share ideas and workshop issues.

[strangewings]

@beowulf

As riding behaviors become more complicated, I think R- is necessary and it’s difficult to use only R+ to shape behaviors you’d like with very complicated asks like, for instance, Pi/Pa and true collection

I was thinking about this today. In agility, one R+ trick is to transfer value from the rewards (treats/toys) to the obstacles so performing is self-rewarding. With the horses I have taught to jump, they have taken to it right away as a “job” they understand easily, and I love that feeling. Dressage work is more difficult. I have included some R+ through transfer of value to marker words and that has helped with clarity of communication, given that my aids likely aren’t as consistent as I would like. I think there is a lot more ability to incorporate R+ than we probably assume. Prioritizing the horse’s mental “buy in” to the activity is a shift we have to make.

[Libby2563]

@strangewings

I have included some R+ through transfer of value to marker words and that has helped with clarity of communication, given that my aids likely aren’t as consistent as I would like.

I know you said marker words and not cues, but I was wondering yesterday about the use of voice aids in dressage. Voice is currently penalized but if it weren’t, could voice aids help riders be clearer and use less pressure? I use the basics like praise, clucking, “whoa,” and cues for longeing (which have as much to do with tone and body language as the words) but I haven’t tried to teach my horses complex voice cues. Could you use voice cues in an upper-level dressage test in a way that takes some pressure off? I’m not sure because a passage or a pirouette doesn’t come out of nowhere—you have to set the horse up with the correct balance and engagement, which itself takes years of incremental work to develop. Ideally the setup will be through subtle half-halts but we’ve all seen the cranking/spurring version too unfortunately. So could you teach a voice aid that cues the horse to shift from, say, a collected trot to a passage without much else on the rider’s part? And would that make the sport more humane or are the people who would go this route already not the problem? And if voice aids could be used this way then why are they penalized in the first place? Undignified I guess?

[strangewings]

@Libby2563

if voice aids could be used this way then why are they penalized in the first place? Undignified I guess?

I assume it is because of the origins in the cavalry. The whole point is to make a horse that is useful in combat, which means minimizing the aids that are required to achieve a function. You can’t take the weight aids out of the equation when sitting on the horse, so reducing as much as possible to seat and weight and making everything else invisible is a significant objective of the sport. That includes removing voice aids. Voice is clearly an asset in early training. You could use it as much as you want all the way up, in training. Tests are a presentation of a “finished product”, so voice should not be used in tests.

ETA: You can actually use as much voice in tests as you want as long as the judge never catches you