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Racing Kills the Filly

Racing
#81

You know, I’m usually a lurker on this forum but I have to say from the heart that I am completely appalled at some of the replies on this thread, and at 43 I’m pretty hard to shock. I think these responses speak for themselves. Whether you agree with the original poster or not, whatever happened to manners and at least respecting another person’s opinion? I feel truly, truly sad for the future of our sport tonight.

I agree.

I can absolutely understand the OP’s frustration.

I can absolutely understand the frustration with the OP from racing folk that do treat their horses well and do the best they can to keep the sport as safe as is possible.

I don’t think telling someone expressing an opinion to shut up or go play in someone else’s sandbox is helping anything.

#82

Not acknowledging the true facts and how many horses continue to suffer in the racing industry is also not serving the horses at all!

If anyone is offended by this, the there must be an emotional conflict somewhere deep down about how the horse is cared for and treated because if you truly feel you are doing the best for your horse and treat it like you would your child, this would not offend you in the least bit.

#83

You sure about that? A number of folks noticed he looked “off” after the race. Heck, he and several others looked stiff and sore coming out of the saddling area BEFORE the race.

#84

[QUOTE=Flypony;3187555]
They are born and bred to run, they love it . If not for racing they would not be. If you don’t like it don’t watch. Go save a seal or a tree.[/QUOTE]

That is a rediculous argument.

My 4 year old son would love to ride his bike in the street. That doesn’t mean I’m going to let him do it.

Better for these horses to not be than to be ruined and thrown out like garbage when they are broken and can no longer make money for their owners.

It is up to the breeders and owners to protect these babies. They are making it clear that money is more important.

#85

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;3187673]
I keep hearing people say how the horses love to race. I call bullshit. That’s just the kind of statement that fluff-bunny bleeding hearts always get called on for being anthropomorphic. You can’t possibly know that a horse loves racing. How do you know he wouldn’t rather be loafing around eating grass all day? They are big dumb animals and they are programmed to cooperate. It has nothing to do with “love.” They’re just trying to get along and survive.

Do horses appear to enjoy running? I’d say yes. Do they often appear to adapt to the handling and lifestyle of the track? It would seem so. But then, what options do they have? Please spare me the whole “love” part though. If the horses “loved” it so much, then why do almost all of them have ulcers?

My OTTB certainly appears to love galloping in the field. But I honestly can’t tell you why he does it, or whether he does it because he loves it. I have a sense that he didn’t love the things they did to him at the track. The lip chains, the ear twitching, the shanking, the needles, the stiff sore joints.

If I had to guess, I would think he would have preferred to stand around with a bunch of mares eating grass. But then again, if it weren’t for racing, he wouldn’t be here, so let’s all just pretend there aren’t any problems.[/QUOTE]

So you own an OTTB? Then you should know… It’s who they are, why they were bred, it’s in their heart & soul. I own several retired race horses, one of whom retired sound at the age of 8 after 75 starts. He LIVES to run, he tells me frequently what he thinks of this trot/canter pansy-ass second career. He is in his glory doing what he was bred to do, running. In company with other horses, he MUST win, it’s in every fiber of his being. So…yes, I do believe they love it. Maybe not each and every one, but many of them do. You mention ear twitching & injections & lip chains. I’m sorry…those things are not industry specific.

In response to the avalanche of racing bashers - While there are problems in the industry, there are many success stories are well. The people who love the sport are grieving Eight Belles as well. The people who live and breathe the sport are doing their best to improve it each & every day, not just when it makes the national news. There is no need to come here and kick them while they’re down. It’s just downright mean.

#86

[QUOTE=jumper11;3187695]
You are comparing a horse’s death to that of a human’s? wow. I think it’s getting plenty of media coverage what more are you looking for?[/QUOTE]

I was referring to the live coverage on NBC, not the follow-up coverage. So far what I’ve seen is good. Yes, I compared an animal with a human – to make a point, which is to illustrate the relative insignificance of the filly’s death in the judgment of the TV network. The horses are on center stage here, after all.

How charming of you. Somehow I have a feeling I would have found another horse. Like the three I already had, for example.:rolleyes:

#87

I had the horse of a lifetime in my TB mare, she broke down before she even made it to a track. At 2 yo’s old she was 16.3h and was huge through the body. She also had bowed tendons. I bought her and worked past the tendon issues, she was the best horse to ride and hang out with. She also did very well in dressage and trail riding. Just an all around nice horse. She had leg and hoof problems that plagued her all her life.

When she died, on her grave I placed a marker that says " What made her great destroyed her". I believe this is true for all TB’s. They are created for speed and speed only. When that speed kills them, they are simply another statistic. It seems none of the breeders are interested in horses that last beyond 3 years. I’d love it if I were wrong, do you know of a racing barn that takes longevity into consideration?

#88

[QUOTE=BornToRide;3188439]
If they are treated that well, as you claim, and are being properly conditioned, then how come this filly comes down with bilateral breaks in the same area?? You can bet your hiny that those are going to be identified as stress fractures, that, as we all know by now, are usually caused by incorrect conditioning. [/QUOTE]

Where do you get your facts? Have you ever seen what a horses limb looks like when it is galloping at those speeds? And you honestly think their conditioning and feeding is the cause:confused: Why would we “all know that by now” ? To my knowledge, I have never found a study that showed a correlation between feed, conditioning and stress fractures in TBs. There are studies that show correlations between stress fractures and conformation faults. When that much stress is put on the limb any number of little things will contribute to an injury.

You are trying to simplify the complex using your own reasoning, not that of facts. So please don’t present your opinion as a fact. I think a single injury/incident is very complex and unique, but it will hold some similarities to the pool of racehorse injuries as a whole. These similarities are what we can target to make the most usefull changes.

I hope the racing community puts more effort into funding more studies and commits themselves to investigating the soundness of racing two and three year olds and makes the necessary changes based on real statistics.

#89

[QUOTE=chism;3188499]
Have you ever ridden and ex racer? It’s who they are, why they were bred, it’s in their heart & soul. I own several retired race horses, one of whom retired sound at the age of 8 after 75 starts. He LIVES to run, he tells me frequently what he thinks of this trot/canter pansy-ass second career. He is in his glory doing what he was bred to do, running.
While there are problems in the industry, there are many success stories are well. The people who love the sport are grieving. The people who live and breathe the sport are doing their best to improve it & make it safer for the horses. There is no need to come here and kick them while they’re down. It’s just downright mean.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have an ex-racer. I rode him yesterday and I will be riding him today.

I do believe I properly acknowledged that many people in racing are responsible and caring. But there’s a darker side as well. My comment was regarding the statement the horses wouldn’t be here if not for racing, which is true. But that statement seems to also imply that because racing made them, no one else has any business questioning how the animals are treated.

#90

[QUOTE=I’m EBO;3188449]
Galileo said:

Some European people I know told me that they were usually not started until their third year. I thought they probably knew, but thanks for the correction.[/QUOTE]

I can’t say what they do on a whole. But my OTTB had a number of races as a two year old in the UK on turf. He even ran in a 32 horse field:eek: wish I could have seen it.

#91

[QUOTE=chism;3188499]
You mention ear twitching & injections & lip chains. I’m sorry…those things are not industry specific.[/QUOTE]

No, but the subject here is racing.

#92

Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my “pasture pets,” and yes, they do love to run…under their own expression…perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone “track” the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I’ve watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont…1958? OK so I’ve seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn’t going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don’t blame everyone for a breakdown, the “what ifs” the “hind sight”…what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn’t broken down? What if she hadn’t run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn’t happened on national TV, do I blame racing…NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don’t label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don’t condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.

#93

Sporthorsefilly, Thank you. Well said:yes:

#94

Ok. Let’s take a breath for a minute. Anyone care to give facts on the origins of racing? How about where the age determinations were created?

I’m running out the door or I’d do the research and post it myself. Point is - this is an age old sport that has made great improvements over the years and will continue to make improvements. We didn’t just create out of the blue the racing age groups. This has been going on for quite some time. Maybe it is time re-evaluate since we know so much more about horses but if this isn’t re-evaluated it’s most likely because other aspects are being re-evaluated and attempted to be made better to keep the sport as close to it’s origins as possible. It takes time and we can’t eliminate all possibilities either.

What happened yesterday is tragic but don’t think the racing world hasn’t taken notice. They have made lots of changes and will continue to make changes as necessary. Trainers/owners will re-evaluate their methods as they feel necessary as well. It will take time to revamp the entire sport but it has come leaps and bounds over the years - some ways have been good and some ways haven’t been good. The same can be said for eventing. I don’t think they are necessarily the same but no one involved with eventing can deny the changes made to the sport need some time to adapt to thus encountering issues along the way. Maybe the eventing powers that be will decide to make more changes or go back to the way it was. Same thing can and will occur in racing - most just won’t see it because most of the folks posting on the racing forum right now are not even racing related.

#95

[QUOTE=sporthorsefilly;3188574]
Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my “pasture pets,” and yes, they do love to run…under their own expression…perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone “track” the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I’ve watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont…1958? OK so I’ve seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn’t going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don’t blame everyone for a breakdown, the “what ifs” the “hind sight”…what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn’t broken down? What if she hadn’t run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn’t happened on national TV, do I blame racing…NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don’t label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don’t condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.[/QUOTE]

:yes: Agree.

Have you ever seen the National Hunt horses in Europe? They usually aren’t started under saddle until they are late 3 or 4. Average age I’d estimate is 8 or 9 years. I’ve seen a couple hitting the double digits.

Big horses, gorgeous and lacking bone is not a fault there. :yes:

AND they carry weight!!

#96

Good post.

#97

[QUOTE=sporthorsefilly;3188574]
Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my “pasture pets,” and yes, they do love to run…under their own expression…perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone “track” the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I’ve watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont…1958? OK so I’ve seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn’t going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don’t blame everyone for a breakdown, the “what ifs” the “hind sight”…what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn’t broken down? What if she hadn’t run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn’t happened on national TV, do I blame racing…NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don’t label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don’t condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your rational post. :slight_smile:

#98

I am a life long horse person, currently a trainer and love all aspects of horses, however, I cannot and will not ever support racing. IMO, racing has always and will always be a blood sport. The death of this young filly is just one of many and if the racing community continues to run these immature horses to their death, there will be many more to come. I think it’s bull sh** who says “they are doing what they love” How do you know? Have you asked one lately? You are just making yourself feel better. Let’s see, run my a** off or graze in field? I don’t think ANY horse, ANY dicipline would choose to work. Absolutely accidents happen, however, I would like to think that we (being the smarter animal) would take more calculated risks and realize that running a 17 H baby is abuse.

#99

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

Dr. Deb Bennett’s article on the skeletal and musculature develpoment of horses. The sub title ‘’ Futurities ‘’ goes into the history of racing, which according to her , was not originally designed for 2 or 3 yr. olds.
I did not watch the derby, only heard about it this am, and was extremely angry and upset. With the information available about the development of the young horse, or lack there of,provided by people like Dr. Bennett, I can only conclude that it is about fame and money, not the well being of the horse.Otherwise we would see the industry ( and one can add cutting and reining ) waiting untill the horses were mature enough to do the jobs asked of them.

#100

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3188138]
They do race almost exclusively on turf, but they are not started any later. What gave you that idea?

Yesterday the 2000 Guineas was run at Newmarket, 1 mile for three year olds.

The winner, Henrythenavigator had his first start on May 6th of his two year old year and ran 4 times as a two year old.

The second, New Approach has his first start on July 15th of his two year old year and ran 5 times as a two year old.

The third, Stubbs Art has his first start on May 24th of his two year old year and ran 6 times as a two year old.

The only horse in the race that didn’t start as a two year old was a 250/1 outsider that finished 14th of the 15 starters.

The race before the Guineas was a Group 3 race for fillies and mares ages 4 and up. All but one horse in that race also raced as two year olds.[/QUOTE]

Diffrences in European racing and American racing are vast. Most never really train on the surface they run on. Most trainers have tracks which are up and down and the horses are not exclusively trained to the left. Most horses are getting turnout while in training and they do other things, flatwork, hacks in fields, going to the beach. I’ve had a 2yo winner this year already whom I bred. Since her win she’s being going out all day every day and has a few hacks per week. She’s as fit as she needs to be and she’s kept ticking over. What she isn’t is on the track for 15 mins, walked for 45, and locked up for 23hours per day. Her muscles are moving. Our flat horses come home in the fall for R&R. Never had any 2yo come back with any issues to address. Nope it’s rug on and out to the field and in at night. I think most behavorial issues with TB’s back home is the confinement and the regiment of the track and there is no other way to do it.

But lets also ponder before horses are in training. The fat as hell yearling being prepped for the sales that has been stabled most of his life already because he could fetch really good money and it would be ashame if he got hurt before the sales. These yearlings could also be on steroids. Hells bells turn the out already and let them get some concussion on those legs. Let them get dirty, let them get wet, let them be a bit lean and grow into themselves, balance the nutrtion don’t just shovel it into them to make them fat and pretty. This is why horses are lacking in bone, there’s no concussion for the bone to grow.

Terri

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