Make sure as Bluey says, that you ride the canter slowly. You must hold your body slow, seat in the saddle, and hold. Hold as though you are going to do a downward transition without the reins. When you find that spot, hold your body at that speed. And , Oh Yeah, it’s tough on those abdominal muscles. :eek:
[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;8456178]
A few things I do with my reiners,
You mentioned your horse gets anxious if you do something like turn him into the fence when he gets ahead of you and I agree. I wouldn’t do that. Because ultimately I want my horse to relax and want to break gait, not be on the muscle all the time.
We get some kind of hot spicey two year olds sometimes and I will do drills like trot
And let them trot until they’re relaxed and then take a lead depart from a trot. (While we never take a lead depart from a trot in reining, it’s useful for settling a hot horse and using it as a training tool.) once you’re loping, as soon as your horse gets fast or ahead of you in any way, break to a trot. Don’t do it by pulling on him or making him nervous. I use steering in as a very useful tool. Just drive him in a smaller circle off your outside rein and smaller and smaller while relaxing your body and humming “hmmmmm” until he break down a gear. When he does, immediately release all pressure and let him trot loose reined on a bigger circle. When he relaxes, rinse and repeat starting with loping off. It’s amazing how quickly you can get a hot hot horse to want to just slow down and trot as their first reaction instead of running.
Gradually, you can just steer in a little and not break down and the. When your horse gets forward you can just hum to him and he will come back to you. That’s how we teach the come back for the small slow circles.
Just remember, don’t highten the situation. Don’t turn him into the wall, don’t yank or pull him in the ground.
Also, to add, I like this exercise better than just stopping the horse and backing him up because you only correct when he does something you don’t want AND you develop buttons and cues you can use in the show pen. If your horse thinks like he might get hot
In the pen what would you rather? Stop him and back him up and then be disqualified? Or hum and my horse checks back into me and comes backs…[/QUOTE]
Thank you. This is great information.
So… here is my update. I am a big believer in keeping these kind of threads updated through the progression of the issue so other people can learn with me. I am always upset when I find a thread and information that seems helpful with no update or outcome.
As far as pulling him to the dirt and backing him up, I only had to do it a could times before his light bulb flickered and he got that I wanted slower.
What I have been doing the past couple days that has been seeming to work is get him in a collected jog in a circle. This is our go to when things get a little hairy or he gets nervous. Its our “comfort” spot.
When we are calm and comfortable, ask for the lope in the direction of the circle as subtle as possible. He will take a few collected strides at the speed I want and then we break back to the jog as smoothly as possible with him completely underneath me. I am going to just continue doing this and building the number of strides I take before we break back to a jog. I don’t have a need to stop him or back him anymore.
And advice on smoothing out the walk/jog to lope transition?
When he is fast into it, its smooth and I can get him to come back into the bridle. With me asking to be slower and collected into he wants to throw his head a bit before bringing it back to slightly above level with the top line. And sometimes, he is a little unsure of where his feet should be.
Would it be best to when he transitions bumpy with a high head to stop or break back to a jog immediately then ask again? And only let him lope those strides when the transition is calm and smooth?
In case it is your hands not having the right timing, maybe try not to progress with transitions from walk to trot up into lope before you have a very steady, hands off, using other aids transition in the lower gaits first?
By the time you go to lope, you should not have to use the reins at all, so he should not fuss with his head, but carry it where it helps him balance, some horses a bit higher or lower than others.
That is assuming he is off his front end by then, so he won’t rush into the higher gait, but keep the same rhythm.
The way that Scoot is trained is that with contact on his face and the rider sitting deep in the saddle, he is to collect. When the rider lifts their weight out of the saddle and the contact is loosened, he is expected to move out at his current gait.
At the walk and and collected jog he has a slightly above level headset. He is expected to be a little higher but still at vertical at the poll in the extended jog when I go to the two point and hold the horn. The rein hand is moved slightly forward to exaggerate the loose rein control of the horse.
As far as the lope, I want to maintain that through the training. When I ask for the slower, collected lope I want to maintain that contact.
However, I will not say that I have perfect hands. I may still be snatching him up a little bit when we lope off as if he still wants “fall” into the lope and rush.
We are going to get there. And im hoping to get some video so better illustrate all of this 
Quick update on the progress:
Right after my last post, Scoot and I had it out a little bit at the lope. He decided that he wanted to rush into the lope and run. I was feeling gamey and he clearly was too
So I let him…
I held him on the bit and in frame while we quickly loped a circle that was about 20 ft. He did this for the better part of 15-20 minutes. When he decided to slow down and stop, I pushed him to keep going. I did this 4 or 5 times over 10 or so minutes until the poor guy was about to lose a lung. He was pouring sweat and huffing pretty fast.
I walked him out for a few minutes, got his breathing under control and asked again for the lope. This time, a little easier into it but still fast. So I pushed him a time or two to keep loping when he tried to slow up. Eventually he eased up and I stopped to walk him out for a couple minutes.
And this is where the magic happened…
I asked him a 3rd time, he was now exhausted, covered in sweat and just dead tired. He softly picked up his lead, engaged the rear and and loped the circle. After a single circle, I stopped. I gave him a pat and walked him out a few more laps. I asked again. It was soft and he was engaged. I went 2 laps, stopped, I pet him, walked him a little longer. And then I asked for the other lead, same thing…soft, engaged rear end and controlled. Stopped. Pet him. Got off. And walked him out for about a half hour to cool down.
The next day, next ride, his want to lope and be calm was and controlled was there. I think that the lesson was learned that night. For the past two weeks now that we have a softer and more collected mind set, the work at the lope has been spectacular. The few times he has reverted to being a race horse, all I have to do is push him out for a few circles and he slows up really quickly when I let off the gas.
Im not saying this was the best approach or that its the solution for every horse BUT it worked for me.
[QUOTE=RanchRider;8475020]
Quick update on the progress:
Right after my last post, Scoot and I had it out a little bit at the lope. He decided that he wanted to rush into the lope and run. I was feeling gamey and he clearly was too
So I let him…
I held him on the bit and in frame while we quickly loped a circle that was about 20 ft. He did this for the better part of 15-20 minutes. When he decided to slow down and stop, I pushed him to keep going. I did this 4 or 5 times over 10 or so minutes until the poor guy was about to lose a lung. He was pouring sweat and huffing pretty fast.
I walked him out for a few minutes, got his breathing under control and asked again for the lope. This time, a little easier into it but still fast. So I pushed him a time or two to keep loping when he tried to slow up. Eventually he eased up and I stopped to walk him out for a couple minutes.
And this is where the magic happened…
I asked him a 3rd time, he was now exhausted, covered in sweat and just dead tired. He softly picked up his lead, engaged the rear and and loped the circle. After a single circle, I stopped. I gave him a pat and walked him out a few more laps. I asked again. It was soft and he was engaged. I went 2 laps, stopped, I pet him, walked him a little longer. And then I asked for the other lead, same thing…soft, engaged rear end and controlled. Stopped. Pet him. Got off. And walked him out for about a half hour to cool down.
The next day, next ride, his want to lope and be calm was and controlled was there. I think that the lesson was learned that night. For the past two weeks now that we have a softer and more collected mind set, the work at the lope has been spectacular. The few times he has reverted to being a race horse, all I have to do is push him out for a few circles and he slows up really quickly when I let off the gas.
Im not saying this was the best approach or that its the solution for every horse BUT it worked for me.[/QUOTE]
That might work temporarily or perhaps long term but to me that’s intimidating your horse. You’re saying, “you want to fight? Let’s go. I can win.” Which when you physically exhauste your horse, you can win. But he will get bigger and he will get stronger and then you will have to intimidate more. Like I said, that can be a quick fix but I guess time will tell for you whether it is actually a solution.
[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;8475782]
That might work temporarily or perhaps long term but to me that’s intimidating your horse. You’re saying, “you want to fight? Let’s go. I can win.” Which when you physically exhauste your horse, you can win. But he will get bigger and he will get stronger and then you will have to intimidate more. Like I said, that can be a quick fix but I guess time will tell for you whether it is actually a solution.[/QUOTE]
Agree. Plus lots and lots of wear and tear on your horse. Out think, not wear out. I’d go back to ground work, although OP insists it’s better solved in the saddle…
[QUOTE=RanchRider;8475020]
Quick update on the progress:
Right after my last post, Scoot and I had it out a little bit at the lope. He decided that he wanted to rush into the lope and run. I was feeling gamey and he clearly was too
So I let him…
I held him on the bit and in frame while we quickly loped a circle that was about 20 ft. He did this for the better part of 15-20 minutes. When he decided to slow down and stop, I pushed him to keep going. I did this 4 or 5 times over 10 or so minutes until the poor guy was about to lose a lung. He was pouring sweat and huffing pretty fast.
I walked him out for a few minutes, got his breathing under control and asked again for the lope. This time, a little easier into it but still fast. So I pushed him a time or two to keep loping when he tried to slow up. Eventually he eased up and I stopped to walk him out for a couple minutes.
And this is where the magic happened…
I asked him a 3rd time, he was now exhausted, covered in sweat and just dead tired. He softly picked up his lead, engaged the rear and and loped the circle. After a single circle, I stopped. I gave him a pat and walked him out a few more laps. I asked again. It was soft and he was engaged. I went 2 laps, stopped, I pet him, walked him a little longer. And then I asked for the other lead, same thing…soft, engaged rear end and controlled. Stopped. Pet him. Got off. And walked him out for about a half hour to cool down.
The next day, next ride, his want to lope and be calm was and controlled was there. I think that the lesson was learned that night. For the past two weeks now that we have a softer and more collected mind set, the work at the lope has been spectacular. The few times he has reverted to being a race horse, all I have to do is push him out for a few circles and he slows up really quickly when I let off the gas.
Im not saying this was the best approach or that its the solution for every horse BUT it worked for me.[/QUOTE]
I never buy that horses actually think that hard to make that kind of connection, especially when he just galloped around for 20 minutes, which is basically lunging. It sounds like he was too fresh before and then he had a very hard ride that got him tired and now you are able to do more with him so he is staying quiet. Some horses need more work to stay quiet and slow than others.
Thank you all for your help and opinions, it is appreciated.
The technique is outlined by Bob Avila who I respect as a professional horseman. I will kindly say that while you may not agree with the technique I used for whatever reasons, it did work. Only time will tell if it is a permanent solution but I have 8 rides since that day all with very good, consistent work at the lope.
Thanks again
[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;8475782]
That might work temporarily or perhaps long term but to me that’s intimidating your horse. You’re saying, “you want to fight? Let’s go. I can win.” Which when you physically exhausted your horse, you can win. But he will get bigger and he will get stronger and then you will have to intimidate more. Like I said, that can be a quick fix but I guess time will tell for you whether it is actually a solution.[/QUOTE]
What I believe is this: between the horse and myself, there is a leader and there is a follower. And I have seen this play out over and over with owners and their mounts. If you are not the leader, you are the follower. A horse absolutely has to understand that I am in charge in all situations.
However, my disclaimer is this: Do I think my horse is a guy that will stand up and fight to the death with me, no. He is not an alpha horse in his mentality. He is just not that guy. He will absolutely choose the path of least resistance and give in. Personally, I will never own a horse that has the “Alpha” mentality. They aren’t for me.
With that being said I am fully aware of the consequences of picking a fight with a horse that wont back down and the long term ramifications of it. It does create a bigger, stronger and smarter horse in these situation and make it much worse.
And before I resorted to something like this. Please keep in mind that I knew these things: He wasn’t lame. He wasn’t sore. He wasn’t scared. He wasn’t in pain. His saddle fit. The horse has a solid foundation under him. I went back multiple times to ground work and basics to try and work out the issue at the lope.
…It didn’t work.
This method worked. And I already have said that its not for everyone nor every situation
Thanks,
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8475921]
Agree. Plus lots and lots of wear and tear on your horse. Out think, not wear out. I’d go back to ground work, although OP insists it’s better solved in the saddle…[/QUOTE]
Wear and tear on my horse cause I loped a well conditioned and in shape horse around for 30 to 40 minutes until he sweat and was breathing heavy? Non-sense.
[QUOTE=keepthelegend;8475922]
I never buy that horses actually think that hard to make that kind of connection, especially when he just galloped around for 20 minutes, which is basically lunging. It sounds like he was too fresh before and then he had a very hard ride that got him tired and now you are able to do more with him so he is staying quiet. Some horses need more work to stay quiet and slow than others.[/QUOTE]
That is a very incorrect statement about the situation. The horse was not a fresh horse that just needed the energy worked out of him and then he went to work. The problem was much more deeply seeded than just some extra energy as I explain through previous posts.
And, for the record, I do believe that you underestimate the intelligence of our equine friends to believe that a horse does not understand that logic.
And… before the war begins which I know it will because the couch trainers and video warriors of this forum are going to be extremely upset, let me just say this:
I have 4 more rides on this horse since my last post on January 8th. The lope is still softer, slower and reasonably collected for a cow horse. Scoot is much more relaxed and now knows my expectations when I cue him for the lope. Our work has continued past this issue and we are now working spiral circles at the lope.
The method that I used has indeed worked. And from all signs, will be permanent. I’m likely not going to continue to updating or responding in this thread because I think the results and situation have spoke for themselves. The issue is case closed for me.
This horse is already qualified for the AQHA World Show in Ranch Riding at this point and I look forward to seeing you all out there in the show pen.
Thank you for anyone that had constructive advice on the situation.
RanchRider, I’ve used that same technique and seen it work. In my experience, with my horse who was very smart and a bit stubborn, it only took one serious session and then a couple of refreshers and he totally figured it out.
As my trainer, and others I’m sure, have said: make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.
FWIW, however, this did not work on my OTTB mare!! But my Paints? Yep.
[QUOTE=RanchRider;8485298]
Wear and tear on my horse cause I loped a well conditioned and in shape horse around for 30 to 40 minutes until he sweat and was breathing heavy? Non-sense.[/QUOTE]
“I held him on the bit and in frame while we quickly loped a circle that was about 20 ft. He did this for the better part of 15-20 minutes. When he decided to slow down and stop, I pushed him to keep going. I did this 4 or 5 times over 10 or so minutes until the poor guy was about to lose a lung. He was pouring sweat and huffing pretty fast.”
IMHO, that’s too much stressful repetition. I have no problem with hard work but unless you mix it up and give specific muscle groups and joints a periodic rest you are putting wear and tear on the horse. I have no problem giving a horse a hard workout, but in a responsible way. Holding a horse in a frame and loping 20 ft circles for 15-20 minutes and then pushing him back into the circle when he wants to slow down for another 10 minutes is very hard on him.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8485754]
“I held him on the bit and in frame while we quickly loped a circle that was about 20 ft. He did this for the better part of 15-20 minutes. When he decided to slow down and stop, I pushed him to keep going. I did this 4 or 5 times over 10 or so minutes until the poor guy was about to lose a lung. He was pouring sweat and huffing pretty fast.”
IMHO, that’s too much stressful repetition. I have no problem with hard work but unless you mix it up and give specific muscle groups and joints a periodic rest you are putting wear and tear on the horse. I have no problem giving a horse a hard workout, but in a responsible way. Holding a horse in a frame and loping 20 ft circles for 15-20 minutes and then pushing him back into the circle when he wants to slow down for another 10 minutes is very hard on him.[/QUOTE]
And I will agree it was stressful and uncomfortable. It was intentionally hard and stressful. He is young, durable and no worse off for it. And under a normal circumstances I would never push a horse that hard for that long unless he was trained for it. To call that wear and tear though… A little much if you ask me.
However, I wanted without a shadow of a doubt to make a point and push him to a place where he wanted nothing more than to stop. The idea was to not have to have another session like this which it seems to have work.
RR, I understand what you were trying to accomplish, but no one really knows exactly when a repetitive stress injury occurs. It’s a hot topic with kid sports (I have 3 kids). Some kids are just fine, some develop injuries and/or chronic medical conditions that end their participation in that sport/activity for life. What is known is that it is caused by the same motion over and over and over, causing a mechanical breakdown in the soft and/or hard tissue of the body part involved. I don’t recall exactly how old your horse is, but it really does not matter. All horses are susceptible to repetitive stress.
[QUOTE=RanchRider;8485308]
That is a very incorrect statement about the situation. The horse was not a fresh horse that just needed the energy worked out of him and then he went to work. The problem was much more deeply seeded than just some extra energy as I explain through previous posts.
And, for the record, I do believe that you underestimate the intelligence of our equine friends to believe that a horse does not understand that logic.[/QUOTE]
It sounded to me like you got the horse completely exhausted and he has been fine since. I still don’t think he learned much about balance, collection, and control from galloping a circle for 25 minutes, but he did get much quieter. Which perhaps is what he needed to get in the mind frame to be receptive to more advanced training. Just my opinion from reading the posts.
As far as “couch trainers and video warriors”, well, yes, you did post on a public forum about your issues. Everyone who responds is more than likely sitting on a couch and offering an opinion! If you want something better, pay the $$ and get more hands on help from a professional.
If you have it all figured out and fixed, I’m not sure why you came back to respond 5 additional times?
I’m tickled that whatever you did worked for you and your horse but in regards to getting the same result from multiple horses, that is NOT the proper training to get the correct result. Horses learn you are the alpha starting with ground work and by us being SMARTER than they are. Straight up taking your horse head on and picking a fight like that isn’t being smarter than your horse, I’m sure your horse is just kind enough not to take you on a hell of a ride.
