RANT - Pedigree of Horses at WEF

[RyTimMick]

I just came back from Wellington visiting friends and getting the oh so valued Sun and Jumping in. With out fail I pick up an order of go, lo and behold I am reminded of how the pedigree’s of the horses are written at WEF. As a breeder, and pedigree junkie I always look at the pedigree’s of horses as they go into the ring. Nothing pisses me off more than to see the pedigree listed as Sire and Dam. Look, we all know it is about the dam, but the dam’s name is useless unless it is Ratina, Bravo or Narcotique de Muse. Her name offers little to nothing, and forces me to have to use another site to look up the B.mare Sire. EVERY OTHER SHOW lists the Sire/BM Sire. Why must we make this difficult.

Example:WEF

“unnamed famous horse” - s(stallion) BWP - Diamont de Semilly/Carthina Z

Now it is possible to know the mare Carthina Z, but most will not. If you do know her, it is because she is mother to 2 approved stallions. This is Emerald and should listed as it is on any site in the world as Emerald - Diamont de Semilly/Carthago because it shows that the breeder bred DdS to a Carthago/Lys de Darmin mare. If it weren’t a stallion in the ring, or a mare you most likely would never know the mares name.

The reason we don’t care about the mares name is most mares only have around 6-10 foals. Of those, only a few will make it anywhere. So listing her name shares ZERO information, where by mentioning her sires name give you some idea because we know a ton of producing Carthago mares.

Get with the program WEF, look at any other show in the world.

Tim

[vineyridge]

Isn’t the Holsteiner registry built around the use of Holsteiner mares and the quality of their production? if you don’t know the mare line, what good is the damsire information? IMO, what the pedigree info should show is sire/dam/damsire.

You certainly don’t seem to think that the dams have any importance in breeding.

[beowulf]

Playing devil’s advocate here even though I 100% agree that the traditional order of go is Sire/BM Sire, it’s possible they are doing sire/dam for pedigree because that way you are getting an exact idea of who the dam is, and an exact idea of what the pedigree (and all ancestors) look like. If you aren’t listing Sire / Dam / BM Sire, you have no idea what the damline is.

The shortcoming with listing Sire / BM sire is that you do not capture the whole pedigree, and it is not always very specific when you are talking about a popular breeding combination. For example if you are looking at a rather popular breeding combination like the one you mentioned, you might not know exactly who the mare is because there are so many Carthago mares, and several being bred to DdS because it is a proven combination that works… You’re not getting a good idea of the bottom line (the mareline) of the pedigree that way. So you could have several different results pop up if you are searching by Sire / BM Sire only…

I see this happen all the time in racing, where the sires are far more prolific – AP Indy / Mr Prospector means exactly nothing to me, for example - unless that mare is Preach… but there are SO many Mr Prospector daughters and not all of them have the same success Preach did in producing, because they did not come from the same quality dam-line.

I don’t mind it being listed as Sire / Dam because know that it can be hard to find pedigrees by searching their show names, because often they are not even registered with their pedigree, it’s listed as “Unknown”, or, the name does not match the breeder’s/registry name… Or sometimes they only have the sire listed and that is not very useful for breeders, IMHO.

[babecakes]

You mean they’ve gotten beyond being UNKNOWN?

[RyTimMick]

Hi Viney,

It is very unfair of you to say that I don’t think the mares have any importance, when I literally stated above, “We all know that it is about the Dam”. I said its not about her name. I am stating that due to the number of foals a mare has, her name is not helpful. Furthermore, when you watch shows over in Europe, they show pedigrees’ the proper way. When I list ANY pedigree, I never mention the mares name. Either does anyone else in Europe. So it is about the standard. Comme il Faut is Cornet Obo/Ramiro/Alme not Cornet Obo x Ratina. The reason we talk about pedigree’s this way is because you can see the mix of stallion CHOICES made by the breeder. When you see common stallion mixes, you can observe trends and nics. This is helpful to a breeder. Knowing the name of a mare that you will never own, is not.

Beowolf, I understand what you are saying, but if you have the name of the Horse, Emerald, the name of his sire, Diamont, and the name of his BM Sire Carthago, you can very easily find the horse on Telex or Rimundo. You don’t need the name of the mare. Type in Explosion v. Chacco-Blue and only one horse comes up. This is the case almost all the time. Sometimes you have to add addition information, but mare or BM Sire are additional criteria that you can use.

Look at the last 10 shows, and the top 5 horses in each GP. Tell me how many of those mares you would recognize when you see it on the paper. The VAST majority would not, and so if it can not then it serves no purpose.

TIM

[vineyridge]

But if you know the name of the mare, you can find out her stamm, and from what I understand about Holsteiners that is crucial information for a breeder.

[ladyj79]

@RyTimMick I support you on this :lol: I don’t care about who wears their hair this way or that, or what color coat/breeches/helmets people are sporting, but I do want to see sire/dam sire, not any other configuration, because that’s definitely just annoying.

[PNWjumper]

I was happy when they started doing this right at most of the shows for the Young Horse classes. But I think West Coast GP pedigrees are still listed sire x dam on the go sheets (I seem to remember announcers laughing that my TB was out of a mare called Honey Sugar).

As an owner, it annoys me when they list the dam, which, as you pointed out, tells nothing of the pedigree in the moment. I think it’s far more descriptive to say that my young mare is Castelan x Canturo than Castelan x Toronto (which, by the way, also leads to further confusion where people would frequently ask me if she was by the stallion, Toronto).

And this is so basic in every country that ties breeding to sport, that I don’t know why anyone would argue with the convention being followed here as well??? It goes without saying that the motherline is everything, but stallions are still where the recognition of bloodlines occurs.

[Majestic_Gaits]

At least you get the pedigree! I wish all shows would put the pedigree out there, unknown or not!

[IrishBirdcatcher]

Why not list the foal as “horse by dad out of mom by grandpa?” This is how thoroughbred auctions give pedigrees: https://youtu.be/HXvc4X2SwfM
Then everybody is happy.

[va2txrider]

This kind of reminds me of being addressed as Mrs. John Doe, because of course, the identity of any female should solely be by the males surrounding her.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@Majestic Gaits

At least you get the pedigree! I wish all shows would put the pedigree out there, unknown or not!

Yeah. I was personally pretty cranky when the young hunter series here didn’t announce any pedigree or even breeder information last year. The series was introduced to promote locally bred horses, we had to put all the information on entries and include registration papers, and they couldn’t be bothered to announce any of it or post as part of the class list!

Instead, people who really liked a horse and wanted more info had to track down its connections. And the trainer showing the horse doesn’t always know the pedigree inside out, so they’d have to then ask the owner.

Really a pity they missed that opportunity.

And I’ve always been told (and when announced/posted read it as) Sire/Dam/Dam Sire. But then again, I am biased as I want my mare (who is WAY better known around here than her sire) to get credit for her production.

I grew up riding Trakehners from that precious Abiza damline so maybe I’m predisposed to recognize the bottom of a pedigree…?

[EventerAJ]

I come from the TB world, so Sire - Dam, by Damsire is what I’m used to. The damsire is important to get a general idea of the pedigree, but the dam is always included because her performance record and produce record is just as important as the stallion in determining value/potential in a young horse. It baffles me to think the dam would be skipped entirely with just the damsire listed. If damsire isn’t given, I don’t find it too much trouble to look it up.

Not a WB breeder, so my thoughts don’t matter, but as the owner of a TB stallion with a deep female family, his damsire is rather irrelevant compared to the direct sireline and damline.

[RyTimMick]

I think some here are missing the point. The mare is the most important aspect when breeding. I often choose stallions that are out of good mares, because I know they have a better chance of producing. The problem is that MOST mares are not known unless famous, as I stated above. By the time a mare is famous, she is usually dead or no longer breeding. So when looking at hundreds of pedigrees, what does stand out, are trends. Diarado has already bred over 2000 mares. I know Diarado’s pedigree because I have seen his mother, who is full sister to the Stallion Crawford who also produced and I saw. Let me show you what I mean

Diarado - Diamont/Corrado I/Contender/Lord/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Crawford - Corrado/Contender/Lord/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Coriano - Corrado/Lord/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Corofino - Corrado/Fernando/Lord/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Camiros - Contender/Fernando/Lord/Ramiro Stamm 318d2

Castelan I/II - Casiro/Sandro/Cor de la Bryere/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Chellos I/II/III - Contender/Sandro/CdB/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Central Park - Casall/Contender/Sandro/CdB/Ramiro Stamm 318d2
Komme Casall TN - Comme iL Faut/Casall/Contender/Sandro/CdB/Ramiro 318d2

All of these approved stallion come from the same branch of the stamm. It is Obvious when you see it written out this way. The Ramiro mare Golda was clearly a blue hen mare, as was her Lord Daughter Option, and the Sandro mare Gracie III. Diarado is out of the full sister Crawford who is bred almost identically to the stallion Coriano with the added Contender. Corofino is bred almost like Coriano with the addition of Fernando. Camiros is Corofino’s Brother. The Castelan’s and The Chellos are brothers and Central park and Komme . Casall TN descend from the full sister to Chello I/II/III. So if I even get a hint of Sandro and Stamm 319d2 I know it is Gracie III. If I see Lord/Ramiro Stamm 318d2 I know it come from Option. Its important to know about Option because she was short, and so were sons from her line. You will notice that Castelan and Chello do not have option, and all of them stand around 17h. There are plenty of other examples, especially stallion from Belgian Stamm 34, the Qerly Chin line.

Tim

[vineyridge]

But why shouldn’t the blue hen mares be just as famous as the sires? What you have done is reduced them to mere wombs who aren’t even worthy of having NAMES. You are talking about three different mares and reducing them to their stamm number and their fathers… Each one of those three mares has her own pedigree with sires and dams who contributed to her and her breeding prowess. The pedigree notation that only shows sires devalues the mare’s contribution to the foal whether that is intentional or not. She becomes nothing more than a representative of her stamm and could just as well be denominated “Lord mare from stamm # whatever”–or Mrs. John Doe. What happens if there are five Lord mares from stamm # whatever? How do you know which of the five is the exceptional producer?

[CuriosoJorge]

Seriously? You’re complaining because the pedigree isn’t provided in your preferred format?

Thank your lucky stars that the pedigree is being provided at all, and use the USEF recording and horsetelex to (hopefully) fill in the blanks, like the rest of us do. At least, for the ones who aren’t listed as by Netherlands out of KLM.

[RyTimMick]

Yes, I am complaining about the format. I follow the sport all over the world, and the only place that does this is in the US. It shows the lack of breeding culture here. Oh by the way, we tend to also be behind most of our European counterparts so maybe we should look outside our current way of doing things. WEF is supposed to be the greatest horse show series in the world. I won’t even get into the complaints about the footing. It’s time they step up and act like it.

Tim

[winter]

I agree with Tim, there are just so few mares that you will recognise with their name alone, and to make breeding decisions, sire x damsire is an easier format to follow.

Whenever watching big classes I take the daysheet and make notes on the horses I like. Universally in Europe and at Spruce Meadows the format is Sire x Damsire. I have seen Sire X Dam (Damsire) which I like and sometimes Sire x Damsire X granddam sire. When I went to WEF pedigree was mostly absent, and of course totally absent in the hunters which is a shame. At Spruce Meadows they include this information even down the the .9 jumpers and it’s wonderful.

Yes, I could go later and look up the full damline on horsetelex with the mother’s name, but seeing who the damsire was is most relevant to me. Like Tim said, I will not have the mother of that horse in my herd but I may have a mare by the same sire line and be wondering what works best for her.
For instance, I bred my Beach Boy mare to Apiro since I liked Arko very much. I did not have Unika, but I did have a Beach Boy daughter. I could not get Argentinus but I could get a son.

[punchy]

You keep saying its all about the dam, but you’re still only thinking of the dam as important based solely on who her sire is. That’s still sire-focused, and not about the dam. If you really think its about the dam, you’re interested in dam families - sisters and daughters and granddaughters, and you want the name of the dam. I agree it would be ideal to include the dam’s sire also, but I don’t understand why you’re so bent out of shape about the dam’s name appearing in the pedigree.

[EventerAJ]

@winter

Yes, I could go later and look up the full damline on horsetelex with the mother’s name, but seeing who the damsire was is most relevant to me. Like Tim said, I will not have the mother of that horse in my herd but I may have a mare by the same sire line and be wondering what works best for her.
For instance, I bred my Beach Boy mare to Apiro since I liked Arko very much. I did not have Unika, but I did have a Beach Boy daughter. I could not get Argentinus but I could get a son.

Thanks for clarifying, winter. I think I understand your POV now: you are watching these competitions as a Broodmare Owner; my perspective has been almost exclusively as a consumer/buyer/shopper. You are simply scouting for what works with mare pedigrees like yours.

If I see an interesting horse go, I want to know the pedigree too-- including the dam, because I’d like to know if he has any full or half-siblings out there, and also dig into the female family to see what else they’ve produced. I do this ALL the time watching racing on TV…I love selecting a nice-moving horse, then poke around in the pedigree to find the source of what I liked, and knowing that particular horse is NOT available at the track, if I liked the dam side I look into her other foals to see if any of them suck at running and may be finding their way into the sport horse market. Thus, to me, the dam is perhaps more important to me than the damsire, because I’m not hunting for mates for my mares, I’m looking for future prospects.

Similarly, TB catalog pages are 3/4 full with the damline performance and production; it’s about providing information to prospective buyers evaluating future talent, not for prospective breeders with their own horses at home.