Ration Balancer for suspected IR horse

[grayarabs]

I recently moved my horse to a full board barn that feeds Nutrena.
I opted for him to get the Empower Topline RB.
I make up baggies for his feed - a pound am/pm of timothy pellets that I buy - to mix with the RB.

I read on the ECIR group that IR or IR prone horses are to be fed low amounts of the following:
Starch, sugar, fat and iron. Also that no RB suitable for IR horses.

My horse needs to gain weight - esp. on his topline. 20 year old Arabian gelding.

He gets three flakes of hay/day - sometimes four. No grass.

The Purina Enrich is out - ESC + Sugar is 15 pct.

For Triple Crown I am debating the RB or the Lite (Lite not a RB).

I’ll list the percentages in order: Starch, sugar, fat and iron ( should include min/max but will leave that out - for now)

Lite: 4.5 4.8 3 200 ppm (not a RB).
RB: 1.8 9.2 3 500 ppm

For Nutrena Empower:

Topline: 9 5 5 Iron not listed. I called Nutrena today. No one there could tell me iron content.

The small amount of the Nutrena RB I’ve been feeding looks so innocent but it’s high in starch.
The red color of the pellets is worrisome/weird but is said to be iron oxide.

So…should I: (feed in addition to timothy pellets I buy / use as a carrier).

Stay with the Nutrena RB the barn provides. - highest starch and suspected high iron.

Go with the TC ration balancer - lowest starch but higher iron. I buy.

Go with the TC Lite -feed at below suggested feed rate. I buy.

The nights I’m at the barn I make him a mash - soon to start back on beet pulp.

Full board at this new barn is rather expensive and it really hurts my budget to have to buy my own feed on top of it.
I want what’s best for my horse - that I can reasonably afford.

There seems to be no reasonably priced commercial feed for IR horses.

So overwhelming. TIA thoughts and advice.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

I have a pony that had an elevated IR test this spring. He’s on a ration balancer (ProElite Grass Advantage). He gets 2 measuring cups a day (about .65 pounds). At that small of a portion, it is not equivalent in NSC to say 2 pounds of another feed, at the appropriate feeding rate. My vet approved the ration balancer for him. Its 13% NSC (starch + sugar).

So the # of pounds you feed of a ration balancer (or anything really) is what to look at, not just the NSC %. You’d have to feed several pounds of a complete feed to get the same amount of nutrition as the balancer gives, and that could mean they are consuming more sugar and starch - even if the NSC is lower.

(using my pony as an example, because I know how much he’d need for his weight ~ 650 pounds)

So .65 pounds of my ProElite RB @ 13% NSC is .0845 pounds NSC
vs .90 pounds of your Nutrena RB @ 14% NSC is .1265 pounds NSC
vs. 1.25 pounds of TC Lite @ 9.3% NSC is .1163 pounds of NSC

So my pony would be consuming more NSC on the Nutrena or the TC Lite. So, its not just the NSC %, its the volume you feed. Just something to keep in mind. My understanding is to keep the diet of IR horses to as close to 10% overall NSC in their diet as possible.

[grayarabs]

Thank you.

Yes - I understand about the amount fed.
I had hoped the Nutrena RB would be OK fed at such a small amount.
Then…I started reading - again - on the ECIR site - and scared myself - again.

My understanding is to be careful with the starch - converting 100 pct to glucose - causing insulin spikes - each time fed.

I wanted to move to this new barn - it doesn’t flood (flooding now in Houston - again).

I’ve never been a fan of Nutrena anything. That’s what this barn feeds - so I’m stuck with it - or else buy my own - something.

I’ve lost two horses from complications of IR/PPID over the past 15 years - so I’m perhaps being a big OCD about this.
I lost a 28 year old 15 years ago when I didn’t know much.
I lost a 31 year old 2 years ago - when I knew more.

Now I see the signs again - having been careful with him since I got him two years ago.

I had so hoped not to have to deal with all of this again.

My concern is the small amount fed - with that starch level - and the insulin spikes - and all the other bad things associated with starch.

Nothing blunts the spikes, right?

So - horse’s first bites of food in the morning - and evening - of course their bucket feed - a starch “hit”.

I get angry whenever I think of Nutrena and their claims of “safe”.
I think they even claim their RB safe for IR horses.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

Well, I’m sure there are much more knowledgeable folks on here than me. Honestly, I hadn’t considered the “spike” immediately after feeding.

So perhaps research all the feeds available in your area and find the one with the lowest feeding rate with the lowest NSC - whatever that is.

Or, alternatively, use alfalfa pellets - they are low NSC. I think Standlee is 9%? Those Timothy pellets are higher NSC @ about 12% I think (at least for the standlee brand).

And very sorry about the loss of your two horses. They had good long lives. Horses now a days are living much longer, making them more prone to old age diseases like humans get in old age. Unfortunately for owners of aged horses, there is not nearly as much research into treating those diseases in horses, and vets do the best they can with the limited info available to them.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

Here is the Standlee flyer on the NSC % of their grass forage products. Its a handy reference.

Standlee Low Carb Forage Options.pdf (114 KB)

[grayarabs]

Thanks. That’s what I had been feeding before moving - and still feed in smaller amounts…
The Standlee Timothy pellets and their alfalfa pellets.
One would think the timothy pellets would be safe for IR horses - but their iron content can be very high.
Believe it or not - alfalfa also not good for IR horses. Something in it can make hoof sore.
So I feed low amount of them.
I know with beet pulp one does R/S/R (rinse/soak/rinse) to lower the sugar and iron content.
Wonder if same could be done with the timothy pellets. Add more water than needed and drain most off.
If that could remove some of the iron.
Nuts - all of this.
The approved commercial feeds for IR horses are:
The Timothy Balance Cubes. $30 for 50 pound bag. I can no longer afford.
The Nuzu Stabul 1 feeds. $27 for a 20 pound bag - free shipping. Some TSC stores sell the 50 pound bags.
I can only imagine what that costs. (Tractor Supply).

I am paying a premium for my horse to be at a barn that doesn’t flood.
Now I need to be able to afford to safely feed him.

I’ll call Nutrena next week / ask about iron content. Something tells me it will be high.

To add: if would help others. R/S/R can remove sugar and iron but not starch.

Also - the new “thing” is not NSC. It’s ESC plus starch to be 10 pct or less.
Ethanol soluble carbs. Not water soluble carbs.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

I’m not familiar with Alfalfa being linked with laminitis (well, unless a horse broke into the feed room and ate a 50# bag). I’ll have to ask my vet about that on the 30th when she is out for my senior’s annual physical.

I have no idea if rinsing soaked pellets would remove anything, except parts of the dissolved pellets. They are pretty finely ground, then compressed. Hay cubes on the other hand contain much larger pieces, so that might well lend itself to rinsing and you are not loosing hay along with the water.

The hay report I just got back on my Bermuda from UT says “Sugar (ESC)”, so are sugar and ESC not the same thing? I’ve always calculated NSC = Sugar + Starch. So now I’m a bit confused.

[grayarabs]

NSC = WSC + sugar. water sol. carbs - Outdated calculation
.
ESC + sugar. ethanol sol. carbs.- Updated calculation

ESC + sugar goal less approx. 10% or less.

Have a look-see at the Triple Crown website.

They have a link to NSC values. The chart…
But note - for their feeds - how they calculate.

[stb]

Whatever you feed, you need to feed at the suggested minimum rate, otherwise your horse is not getting the vitamins , protein, and minerals it needs.

I also would not recommend rinsing and soaking Timothy pellets, as you would lose lots of the good stuff and I’m not sure how much iron you would lose in the process. Timothy balance cubes are a good option, but expensive.

I have had an IR horse, and currently have another who is heading in that direction. I understand how crazy making this whole thing can be. I will say that iron is in everything, even your hay and in hay pellets. I’m not sure how much to worry about that, because I think it is something that you really can’t avoid. Horses eat so much forage as compared to hard feeds, that worrying yourself over the iron level in 1 pound of RB versus 25 pounds of hay seems silly to me.

I currently have my wanna be IR gelding on TC 30%. I tried going the vitamin/mineral mix with Timothy pellets route with him and he looked terrible. Topline got bad and he just didn’t look bloomy. Put him back on RB and he looked much, much better. He is 19 and I think at this point in his life he needs the extra protein from an RB.

I have limited the time on grass for my gelding. It also looks like a grazing muzzle is in his future. I feed low sugar hay (Coastal and Timothy). Along with the RB I feed a bit of beet pulp (r/s/r) and depending on time of year I will feed Timothy Balance Cubes. I aways feed flax and salt, as well.

[Palm_Beach]

@grayarabs - you appear to be making yourself crazy. I feed my easy keeping show horse TC Lite at 2.5 lbs a day and he looks fabulous. He wins halter and performance classes. I switched to Lite from the TC30% years ago on the advice of TC, and they said you can feed a bit less and the horse will not be deficient in anything or consume toxic amounts of anything. Call them, they are very helpful.

You all do realize that what is on the bag label is an average - since the ingredients are plants and grains and by products of plants, they will naturally vary in nutritional composition. So bag A may contain X amount of a nutrient, and bag B may contain X+1 amount of a nutrient and bag C may contain X-1 amount of a nutrient. When they do quality control, they want to make sure the nutritional composition stays within a range.

[SharonA]

OP, the folks at Triple Crown might be able to reassure you about the iron. I know I called them about this at one point, and they had a satisfactory answer.

I eventually decided that since I don’t want to live on a 10% NSC diet when I am old, horse shouldn’t have to, either. I’m not talking high NSC, but, it’s not 10% (his grain is around 12% or 14%. I prefer TC Senior, but the barn feeds something that is close enough). The fella is happier, and I am enjoying not worrying about incremental NSC values. And sometimes I get a hot fudge sundae at the ice cream stand on the way to the barn, and I don’t care how unhealthy that is, either. Life has to be worth living.

I know you don’t want to be spending more money on top of full board, or ordering special feed, but do you know about Stabul 1 feeds (stabul1.com)? Very low in NSC and yet seem to be delicious. They have a hard keeper’s formula as well as their usual. And, since you reminded me of this feed, I have just gone on their website and blown $50 on their treats and on their “crumbs” (which are good for mashes). Thank you, OP. Thanks a whole lot. :lol:

[Palm_Beach]

But you are not going to founder due to your diet. Any horse at risk for laminitis needs to be very carefully managed for the rest of his life.

[JB]

I love the ECIR group, but I don’t agree that no balancer is appropriate for any IR horse, as there are many IR horses on balancers and doing very well.

Yes, iron is an issue, but the BIGGER issue high iron in relation to copper and zinc. You can’t get away from high iron diets in much of the US - it’s in the soil, therefore in the forage. But you CAN add copper and zinc. In many cases, the amount of added iron in a balancer is a small % of what’s already in the diet.

The ideal scenario is to test the hay, add in what a balancer and whatever else is there, and add copper and zinc to balance the iron to a fairly tight 3-4:1:3 ratio. That’s much more important than not adding more iron if that still means your iron:copper:zinc ratio is 30:1:4 because of the forage.

Also, “alfalfa is bad for IR horses” is a blanket statement that, while totally true for SOME horses, is absolutely not true for others.

There are non-balancer ways to add calories, but "My horse needs to gain weight - esp. on his topline. " needs more clarification (and a picture is the best way to see things). Topline is the last thing to come on when weight is where it needs to be, but lack of a topline does not necessarily equate to “needs more calories”. And at 20, it may be hard(er) to get appropriate muscling on that topline.

What’s his exercise like?

what is your definition of “reasonably priced feed for IR horses”?

You can’t really soak then rinse hay pellets - the particles are too small, and “rinsing” will remove half the hay. Or more.

[SharonA]

@Palm Beach

But you are not going to founder due to your diet.

I am not going to get laminitis, but I could get diabetes, hypertension, pancreatitis, COPD, atherosclerosis, liver failure, gout…… (PB, you are named after a place in Florida and you don’t know from old people and their illnesses?) So be it. I am going out in a blaze of chocolate mousse and clam chowder made with real cream, myself. Since that is my bargain with myself, it is also my bargain with my food-motivated horse. (Sorry, pony.) Again, not talking total abandonment of good diet. I’m just not going be as picky about less than 10% NSC for a senior horse when the horse is doing well and is much happier eating the 12%-14%-ers.

[Palm_Beach]

@SharonA

I am not going to get laminitis, but I could get diabetes, hypertension, pancreatitis, COPD, atherosclerosis, liver failure, gout…… (PB, you are named after a place in Florida and you don’t know from old people and their illnesses?) So be it. I am going out in a blaze of chocolate mousse and clam chowder made with real cream, myself. Since that is my bargain with myself, it is also my bargain with my food-motivated horse. (Sorry, pony.) Again, not talking total abandonment of good diet. I’m just not going be as picky about less than 10% NSC for a senior horse when the horse is doing well and is much happier eating the 12%-14%-ers.

My concern was not for you. Sorry. And I don’t live in FL.

[grayarabs]

Thanks.

The Stabul 1 looks/sounds great - but for the amount I would need to feed way too expensive.

The 20 pound box of feed is $27 with free shipping.
They have a 50 pound bag…I won’t even ask.

I found the iron content on Nutrena’s site.

Nutrena Empower Topline:
Copper min 250 ppm
Zinc min 750 ppm
Iron approx. 625

Triple Crown 30
Copper min 300 ppm
Zinc min 1000 ppm
Iron min 500 ppm

JB - what do you think of those numbers?

The horse is in light exercise.

[JB]

You need to find something local - shipping will kill you, if the cost of a 20-40lb bag (where it’s normally 50lb) doesn’t.

TC is better than most feeds in terms of amounts and ratios. But without knowing what’s in the forage, it’s a crap shoot whether a given feed is enough. Unless you’re in the minority with low(er) iron hay, you may still really need to add copper and zinc.

[grayarabs]

Thanks. At a boarding barn it’s difficult to test hay. Especially when it’s locked up.

One of the other boarders had some tested - I’ll check with her.
I think the barn buys from the same guy/same field. That doesn’t guarantee anything but could possibility help.

The only thing I could do - take a handful of my horse’s hay when I’m there. From his stall.
Several days’ worth and send for testing.

Whatever - I think the TC30 RB is the much better choice.