Ration Balancer or VMS

[JB]

@lenapesadie

I’ll probably stick to the TC brand if the Vermont Blend doesn’t work out or horse won’t eat it.

@lenapesadie

I don’t know what I’m feeding either. LOL. This gelding gets two tablespoons daily of a “Pat Colby mix”. And has been for at least 5 years bar the odd experiment of taking him off it. His feet holder better on it so I’ve continued. The mix itself changes depending on what the supplier can get a hold of. IE one kind of sulfur in one batch and another kind of sulfur in another batch. His additional copper comes from this mix. Is it half a teaspoon? A whole teaspoon? What kind of copper? Actual weight measurements? I’ve got no clue. Black magic stuff. Comes from a guy with goats. Works good, tastes terrible. It’s mostly calcium actually.

It would be a good idea to do some figuring to find out how many mg of cu and zn you’re adding now.

It doesn’t matter “what kind of copper” (well, not for this purpose), what matters for now is the number of mg provided by whatever kind of copper you’re using. Polysaccharide copper provides a different amount of elemental Cu than an amino acid chelate, if you’re comparing the same volume (1tsp or whatever)

@lenapesadie

He gets a teaspoon of Zinpro 40 daily. It’s zinc methionine. Technically I can weigh this product and determine exactly how much zinc this is but have not done so yet.

Zinpro 40 is 4% zinc, so once you have the gm weight of what you’re using, you can know how much zn there is

@lenapesadie

No to little selenium here either. He gets some from his grain currently. I do like keeping up with a vitamin E supplement though as I understand it can assist with some Se shortfall. There was a brief period at a boarding barn where I couldn’t control the type of grain he was eating AND he wasn’t getting a full serving daily. During that time I did pop him on Elevate Se.

It’s much better to get blood Se up to a normal range, than to try to make E make up for low Se. You can use E to make up for low Se, but it’s not ideal.

[lenapesadie]

@JB

Polysaccharide copper provides a different amount of elemental Cu than an amino acid chelate, if you’re comparing the same volume (1tsp or whatever)

I think it’s copper sulfate but not 100% positive.

Regarding, Se, I would love to have bloodwork done to have a metric for that and other mineral/ vitamin levels. Always seems to get pushed to the back of the priority list when the vet is out. Maybe when he comes to do the oldies teeth!

[Heinz_57]

Ah, I see well if you can do even an approximate math on what he’s currently getting, that would go a long way. You might find you can cut out several things with one product and it might be an improvement. I don’t know how much your alfalfa bales weigh, but IIRC the average is 8-900 cal per pound, so if you’re introducing a lunch of say, 5lb of alfalfa, that may be 4000-4500 extra calories you can cut from the TCS so he doesn’t turn into a blimp

I have been really happy with the VT Blend, personally. My guy’s topline practically exploded on it, and I like that it already has magnesium in it so one less thing I have to add. I DO have to supplement E, but that’s because mine is a fat dry lot pony with no grass access. One important note: you want to start with just a tiny sprinkle when you introduce it and slowly work up to a full dose, or it may get rejected, same with most of the VMS in that class since they don’t usually have added flavors or fillers. Mine gets a mash, which I think is easier to hide it in anyway.

[lenapesadie]

Right. I was coming in this board trying to play it cool and you called me out on my witch brew feeding methods LOL

What I may do, pending the Vermont Blend comes, is top dress with that instead of my current mineral mix to start. Horse is eating the current clearly disgusting blend so I’m hoping with a gradual change it won’t be an issue. Then start cutting the TCS down and bumping up the alfalfa hay. I guess I’ll find some sort of hay pellet to carry the Vermont Blend if he won’t eat it in a smaller portion of TCS. I feed everything sloppy wet already so good to go there.

I can figure out his current magnesium intake between the Quissience and the TCS. Would be nice to have one less supplement.

I’m hoping I can get a wee arena set up at home and some other projects completed sometime soon so I can get back into riding regularly. In work, this horse can eat a ton without porking up.

horse wants you to know blimp shaped would be his preference lol

[Heinz_57]

@lenapesadie

I was coming in this board trying to play it cool and you called me out on my witch brew feeding methods LOL

Hey, I’m a realist, I get it! I don’t weigh my hay, and my measuring scoop for my timothy pellets is two-handed handfuls. I only asked if you knew specific amounts because it sounded like specific amounts were important

I hear you on wanting to get things set up quickly. I bought my place NINE YEARS AGO and I won’t tell you how long it took to put a wee arena in. PS the footing is still not all the way done but it’s great to have.

[lenapesadie]

Two handed handfuls sounds legit. My idea of weighing hay is “this flake seems heavier, better give it to the skinny horse”. Buwahahahaha

@Heinz_57

I hear you on wanting to get things set up quickly. I bought my place NINE YEARS AGO and I won’t tell you how long it took to put a wee arena in. PS the footing is still not all the way done but it’s great to have.

That looks lovely! I bet you enjoy having that. Footing looks nice to me! I have a long narrow spot in the yard I’d like to fence this year. It will be an extra paddock sometimes grass arena. That will have to do for a bit.

[Scribbler]

I have a fish scale and a large IKEA shopping bag (Costco would also work!).

I weigh flakes especially on new batches of hay to get a feel for the size. I am currently feeding compressed Timothy to one horse and 3 string Timothy to the other, no real reason why, and the visuals are very different! Otherwise I always over feed.

I also like to weigh the contents of whatever scoop I’m using once so I know this yogurt container = just under one pound of oats, or whatever.

I think you can cut out the bagged feed cold turkey then start adding in new product slowly.

[Heinz_57]

It’s a serious budget arena - the whole thing cost a couple hundred dollars and a lot of hours. It used to be a sloped patch of weeds.

I do have several real feed scoops, but they get carried off frequently by my kid so I just go by the level in the bucket. 🤷 if he starts looking too plump I do less handfuls. I use an actual measuring cup for my VT Blend though, and the Emcelle has its own measured pump dispenser. Free choice hay = no weighing, just “enough til next meal”

[lenapesadie]

Both of the current horses are on free choice grass hay. So I just keep it in front of them in the stalls.

I have a scale somewhere. I’ll probably buy a new one before I find it.

I’m not keen on making a bunch of diet changes at once if I can help it. To cut the grain and add a VMS I’d also have to introduce a new carrier. So that’s three changes. 4 if you count cutting the old mineral supplement. 5. If you count increasing the alfalfa. He’d probably be fine, but better safe than sorry. It’s not like he’s eating garbage currently.

My poor oldie came with no real prior feeding history other than it wasn’t sufficient as evidenced by his body condition. Had no choice but to just start feeding him with what I use.

[lenapesadie]

@Heinz_57

It’s a serious budget arena - the whole thing cost a couple hundred dollars and a lot of hours. It used to be a sloped patch of weeds.

What’s the secret ma’am?!?! Cause your arena looks super for a sloped patch of weeds!

Same on the hay. Is he going to need more before breakfast? That is the question

[Heinz_57]

@lenapesadie

What’s the secret ma’am?!?! Cause your arena looks super for a sloped patch of weeds!

Have a friend with access to a mini excavator who will do your cut and fill work for the cost of fuel and bring you clean fill dirt from a local job for free. We cut down about 4’ on the highest corner and had to build up about 8’ on the opposite diagonal one.

Much of the budget aspect of all this hinges on having lucked into the right friends but one can rent same equipment from most rental places for a couple hundred bucks a day, if you know how to operate it. DH made it level-ish over many hours with our tractor, we let it settle and pack over winter because we didn’t have $$$ for footing. Posts came second hand from a vineyard who’d only had them in the ground one season - they were $2/ea. Poly rope was on 60% off clearance at TSC, ~$65. I admit I paid full price for the insulators, bc I wanted black ones instead of yellow. And to have the option of electrifying if I needed to use it as a turnout. Last year I dumped (non-toxic) wood chips on it as a temporary footing, because in summer the dirt was like concrete. I moved them around by the bucket full with the tractor and then raked everything by hand to make it level.

[lenapesadie]

@Heinz_57

Have a friend with access to a mini excavator who will do your cut and fill work for the cost of fuel and bring you clean fill dirt from a local job for free. We cut down about 4’ on the highest corner and had to build up about 8’ on the opposite diagonal one.

That’s fantastic! Super for you!!

I wonder if I can find a spot I could cut the high side? Hmm. Where I think I want the real arena I wouldn’t be able to cut down in the high side as it up by the barn. I’d have to fill everything. Ugh so much dirt. Guess I’m sticking with a grass arena in the short term!

Sounds like you’ve done a lot of work. You must be so pleased

[Heinz_57]

Its been a slow process I hope for base rock and real footing by this fall so I can use it even in the really wet months.

[suzyq]

I think it might come down to what your horse will eat. My easy keeper will eat tc30, but won’t eat most vm supplements mixed in his tiny amount of food. He won’t eat anything flax based or ground flax either. He’s at a boarding barn, wet cubes with the vm might work but they don’t do that. When you cut back the feed, there’s less tasty stuff to hide the supplements!

[baybrio]

You’ve gotten excellent advice so FWIW… All my horses are easy keepers (even the old TB was an easy keeper). I feed Buckeye Grow-N-Win RB. They make two RBs, one for alfalfa based diets and one for grass/hay (not alfalfa) based diets. I feed about 1 lb a day. Grow-N-Win seems expensive until you calculate cost per horse per month. I actually order through Chewy because I’d have to drive 45 minutes to pick up a larger bag from a feed store.

I had a vet years ago tell me to take my pudges off Grow-N-Win because my horses weren’t growing or winning. She wouldn’t read the label and didn’t care how much I fed, she also had never heard of a RB. I switched vets.

I also keep free choice loose horse minerals and separate loose salt available at all times. You have to introduce the minerals slowly, once the horses adjust they only consume what they need. Several manufacturers make mineral blends. I use Buckeye when I can but have used others with similar analysis.

[lenapesadie]

@suzyq

I think it might come down to what your horse will eat.

That’s my concern. Granted horse doesn’t need to lose weight per se so I could conceivably make a large mash to hide a VMS but at some point it gets inconvenient enough that it’s not worth it.

[lenapesadie]

@baybrio

Win seems expensive until you calculate cost per horse per month

Right!

Some vets aren’t as educated as we might hope

[JB]

@baybrio

I had a vet years ago tell me to take my pudges off Grow-N-Win because my horses weren’t growing or winning. She wouldn’t read the label and didn’t care how much I fed, she also had never heard of a RB. I switched vets.

So many people bash me for “bashing” vets about their level of nutritional knowledge. It’s not bashing when it’s a simple statement about a level of education. Your vet is not alone in this by any means. I personally wouldn’t switch vets because of something that is taught very very little of in school, and is something I can learn myself (or hire a specialist for), as long as they were competent in the areas I can’t do myself.

[baybrio]

@JB

I personally wouldn’t switch vets because of something that is taught very very little of in school, and is something I can learn myself (or hire a specialist for), as long as they were competent in the areas I can’t do myself.

I totally agree. I was not intentionally “bashing” vets. I didn’t switch vets because of her level of nutritional knowledge. I know vets don’t get much training in nutrition - much like many human doctors.