Ration Balancer-which has worked best for you?

If only that were true more than it is.

Just being on pasture doesn’t at all mean he’s getting just about everything he needs. Right now, I have WAY more grass than I have horses to graze, and all 4 are muzzled.

It may be plenty of calories, but that doesn’t mean it’s enough in the way of nutrients. It’s definitely not enough copper and zinc, and for my big guy, not enough Vit E

You do not want to overfeed an easy keeper. I would absolutely go with the TC Lite, which is specifically formulated for easy keepers.

Why would you feed minimally 2300 calories to a 1000lb easy keeper vs 1266 calories? That IS feeding more.

TC Lite is only formulated for the “easy keeper” who doesn’t need a regular grain, but who needs a bit more than a ration balancer. It is more than a RB, and less than a regular feed.

If your forage is of lesser quality, you may need the higher protein content and vit/min content of TC 30, but that does not seem to be the case in this specific situation.

Without a forage analysis we don’t know that

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Most horsemen who have eyeballs can tell whether or not a horse needs something in addition to the forage it is getting. But hey, if feeding the horse more concentrate and slapping a muzzle on it works for you, go for it. I’d rather feed something specifically formulated for an easy keeper and allow more forage, which is in line with what is recommended by most equine nutrition professionals.

I’m not sure where JB is getting his or her numbers, they make no sense, and why JB is so against a product specifically formulated for easy keepers. Both feeds are meant to be fed at a minimum of 1 lb per 500 lbs of body weight. Some people just get entrenched in their positions. It’s always best to go directly to the website and consult the manufacturer, who has the best and most up to date information. Many statements in post 21 are incorrect. If anyone wants to do a comparison here is the information, direct from the horse’s mouth:

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/lite/

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/prod…tion-balancer/

My point is that with an easy keeper on good pasture, you are looking at feeding the minimum, and the TC 30 may be too much and the forage is better balanced using the Lite. More does not mean better, especially with easy keepers on good pasture.

Even if you do a pasture analysis, you will NEVER know how much grass your horse ie eating, so unless your pasture is deficient in some nutrient, you have no way of knowing how much of a specific nutrient has been consumed. You have to use your eyes and assess the horse’s condition and make adjustments by adding feed to a horse in less than ideal condition and restricting intake for a horse that is getting too fat.

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Late to the party on this one but need basic info on ration balancers. I have a very easy keeper quarter horse mix who came to me skin and bones. On a minimum amount of Wellness Dynasport and good hay, he is now fit and looks great…but, is also very fresh. Except in really bad weather (lightning) he lives out - I’m thinking of substituting a RB for his grain, but the 30% protein in most quality ones threw me for a loop! How does that protein percentage compare to the 12% protein in Dynasport or TC Senior? Thanks for the info in advance!

In some cases by the time you can see a horse needs something additional it you are now beind the 8 ball. Nutritional deficiencies show up in different ways and can take a long time to show up. In particular hoof quality since it takes so long to grow out a hoof. By the time you get a dull coat you are behind the curve and yes you can have a fat horse that has a dull coat. Some horses don’t shed out well in the spring. I can’t tell looking at my horse if they are vitamin E or selenium deficient. In may area the soil is very deficient in those. The horses graze on grass that is deficient in those and the hay is local so is also deficient.
Some horses show their deficiencies by getting scratches or rain rot easily.

I don’t understand you are so against a RB. It is a product exactly designed to provide the protein, the v/m for a horse that is not eating much or any grain. Some are formulated to be fed with grass/grass hay and some are fomulated to be fed with a horse that eats alfalfa hay. It is fed in small quanities. Yes some horses only need a v/m and don’t need the protein.
I don’t know why it is so hard to understand that if you are feeding less than the recommended TC Lite, or any product for that matter, you won’t be getting the minimum vitamins/minerals listed on the bag. You likely will be getting less than the recommended daily allowance. A RB is a good way to feed the v/m in a lower calorie package. I was feeding my easy keeper 2 cups a day of the Gro N Win plus a minimal amount of grain. In my horse’s case the pasture is sparse and weedy and the hay is basic orchard grass hay but probably not super nutritional. If he gets better quality hay, even in a slow feed net he runs out too quickly. If he gets enough for a half day in the stall he would get too fat. If I give him the recommended minimum on any feed he will blow up like a tick. The RB was a good compromise.

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JB’s numbers happen to be spot on Palm Beach. Calorie content on both feeds can be found here and her math is correct. Nothing JB explains in post #21 happens to be wrong. Your interpretation is incorrect.

http://www.southernstates.com/docs/e…f_manual14.pdf

Your math happens to be backwards. [edit]

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Then why do most horsemen buy stock in skin care items for rain rot and scratches and dull coats, when most of the time it’s from a nutrient deficiency?

Why do so many horsemen jump right to a training issue when the first stop should be to determine if it’s low magnesium or Vit E or selenium?

But hey, if feeding the horse more concentrate and slapping a muzzle on it works for you, go for it. I’d rather feed something specifically formulated for an easy keeper and allow more forage, which is in line with what is recommended by most equine nutrition professionals.

I am honestly really struggling to understand how you think that the minimal feeding rate of 1lb per 1000lb body weight for TC 30 is MORE concentrate than 1lb per 500lb body weight for TC Lite.

I’m not sure where JB is getting his or her numbers, they make no sense,

What numbers? What doesn’t make sense? They are straight off the product information, not random numbers I made up, or hear from a friend who heard it from their great Aunt.

and why JB is so against a product specifically formulated for easy keepers.

Where in the world did I say that? I never said that. I have NO problem with TC Lite. I have suggested it many times to people whose horses get fat on 4lb TC Sr but need more than TC 30.

Both feeds are meant to be fed at a minimum of 1 lb per 500 lbs of body weight.

Where are YOU getting your numbers? cutter, above, already listed what the TC website says for TC 30 which is, and I quote
For balancing pasture and/or hay, feed 1 lb. to 1.5 lb. per 1000 lb. of body weight”

and for TC Lite, which is
MATURE HORSES: Feed 1-2 pounds of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight per day.”

Some people just get entrenched in their positions. It’s always best to go directly to the website and consult the manufacturer, who has the best and most up to date information.

Well yes, it is best :wink:

Many statements in post 21 are incorrect.

Which are incorrect?

If anyone wants to do a comparison here is the information, direct from the horse’s mouth:

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/lite/

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/prod…tion-balancer/

I have :wink:

My point is that with an easy keeper on good pasture, you are looking at feeding the minimum, and the TC 30 may be too much and the forage is better balanced using the Lite. More does not mean better, especially with easy keepers on good pasture.

Given the facts from the website, which contradict what you keep saying, I can only assume you have the 2 products backwards in your head

Even if you do a pasture analysis, you will NEVER know how much grass your horse ie eating, so unless your pasture is deficient in some nutrient, you have no way of knowing how much of a specific nutrient has been consumed.

I agree. Pasture analysis only gives you one insight. You DO have some idea how much grass your horse is eating, it’s not like there’s no clue. There are enough studies that show an average of 4lb/hour over 16-17 hours when free choice grazing (no muzzle) on pasture that’s dense enough. We know that. Whether someone can do some extrapolation based on sparser grass, muzzles, less turnout (which might result in a higher intake rate) is the question, and it’s really not all that important. I think pasture analysis is interesting, but I never tell someone they should do it. Unless you can get samples of ALL the forage the horse might be eating, including weeds, and unless you can somehow take into account the leaves, some dirt, some bark that he is also eating, it’s just not all that worth it.

You have to use your eyes and assess the horse’s condition and make adjustments by adding feed to a horse in less than ideal condition and restricting intake for a horse that is getting too fat.

Eyes and hands are great for BCS. They do not tell you the full story of the nutrients.

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Not sure it is worth the effort JB. Apparently Palm Beach is the ultimate horseman! LOL!

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When looking at how much of X nutrient you are feeding a horse, you have to look at the serving size. The serving size of TC 30, and almost any RB, is about 1lb for the average horse.

The serving size of most regular feeds is minimally in the 4-6lb range, and you’ll see it listed at something like “.5-1.25lb per 100lb”, which for a 1000lb horse would be minimally 5lb to maximally 12.5lb.

How much of the Dynasport is he getting? You would lose a lot of calories by going from, say, 6lb of Dynasport, to 1lb of any RB. But if you’re only feeding 4lb of the D, then you could do either Triple Crown Lite, or 1lb of TC 30 and maybe 1-2lb alfalfa pellets, as an example of options.

Dynasport is 15% NSC, and TC Sr is 11.7%, so the Sr would be my choice if you were looking to make a change to another regular feed. 15% isn’t bad, especially if you’re feeding a smaller amount. But 11.7% might be better in your situation.

Wow, you are joking, aren’t you? I know plenty of top trainers and breeders and “horsemen and women” who have ended up with nutritional deficiencies that were NOT obvious! I personally know TWO people who went through hell with vet bills before figuring out their horses were Selenium deficient. One had been deficient for so long, the horse was almost non-functional it was so lethargic!

I had a mare who was minor-anemic, no one would have ever guessed, but she got sick (unrelated) and when we ran a full CBC, that came up. Some follow up bloodwork showed she was iron deficient even when healthy. That mare was the picture of health - she had ONE lousy virus her entire life!

I also know of a horse that is Insulin Resistant, but has none of the “typical” signs - she is lean. So in her case - it was taking away from the forage, not addition to.

A friend’s stallion was a GP jumper, and had an overload of aluminum (I think it was) - he was gorgeous and peak performer. Bloodwork caught it.

I have a mare who is IR - and you wouldn’t have known it to look at her. When I asked the vet to test her (because her weight was fluctuating more then I liked), she said she wouldn’t have guessed it looking at her either.

All my horses are on ration balancers. LMF Super Supplement or Purina Enrich. I start my foals on it when they are weaned. Horses do NOT get everything they need from pasture, and most especially not from hay, no matter HOW GOOD the hay is. Nutrients are lost in the drying process. And many horses in a boarding situation are not on green grass, they are on hay. Then we ask our horses to be athletes - to go above and beyond what they would do in a natural environment - so that may require an even stronger balance of nutrients.

An easy keeper may get all the calories they need from forage, but often the easy keeper is the hardest to maintain, because we limit their forage! And there is so much more then calories and roughage needed by a horse.

I could go on and on. You may be able to spot all these nutritional deficiencies in a horse, but I highly doubt it.

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I would wonder what the heck is wrong with the feeding program if all those nutritional deficiencies are popping up. I guess I’m sitting here waiting for my horses to implode.

@SonnysMom - if you read what I posted earlier, I stated that I feed TC 30 to my race horses. The title of this thread is “What Works Best For You.” The OP is asking for personal opinions regarding her easy keeping mustang on good pasture 24/7. What has worked best for me with easy keepers on good pasture is TC Lite. The OP did not ask about performance horses or hard keepers, and if he or she did, I would have recommended TC 30. My race horses thrive and win on it. I find my easy keeping show horses do better on TC Lite.

So many people complain about Spring weather conditions being the cause of their horse’s yearly scratches/rainrot. The want to know what they can put on it, and what to bathe the horse with.

Let’s think about this:
You have an easy keeper who needs little to no concentrates. He only gets hay over the Winter. Maybe he lives in the North where Winter is 6 months long.

Hay, no matter the variety, no matter the quality, has little to no Vitamin E. It is a nutrient that degrades very quickly once grass is cut.

Vitamin A is in the green of grass, in the green of hay, and is higher in alfalfa than in grasses. How many people feed bright green hay, and how many easy keepers get alfalfa?

6 months of little to no Vit E or A supplementation, and “suddenly” Spring rolls around and he’s getting skin crud issues.
Magically, once he’s eating enough grass again, the crud disappears. Thank goodness, you won’t have to deal with washing and topicals until next Spring.

Supplement Vit E and A for the hay-only horses, and Spring will be very unlikely to bring about those issues, because it’s not about Spring. You can’t see the E and A depleting in that pleasantly plump horse over the course of the Winter. What you “see” is the result of a deficiency that’s bad enough, having gone on long enough. And as said above, by that time, you’re behind the 8-ball.

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Nobody said horses were so deficient in so many things. You said anyone with an eye can see if the horse is getting everything he needs. That is clearly not the case - if it were, the skin care products wouldn’t be as popular as they are.

It isn’t even necessarily about the feeding program. I have a horse who can’t even have a ration balancer. He’s already too heavy, he doesn’t tolerate that level of soy well, AND he’s muzzled from Spring to Fall. Our soil is high in iron, which by default means forage is low in copper and zinc. You’d NEVER know that by looking at him. Clearly he must be getting everything he needs, right? I mean, he’s an easy keeper who is in good flesh.

Except that without adding cu and zn to his diet, he WILL get scratches from Spring to Fall.

I also add extra lysine and methionine, because full time muzzling on grass means he’s not getting as much as he should be. Now, will the “good horseman” think he’s just not ridden correctly if he sees a topline that’s not as good as it should be? Will he want to add a “muscle mass” product because that’s supposed to add muscle? Or will he think “oh, lysine, can’t build muscle without enough of that, let me add that for a a few pennies a day and I won’t need the $$$ muscle builder product”. Given the eternal popularity of muscle building products, I’m guessing lysine won’t even enter the equation.

The title of this thread is “What Works Best For You.” The OP is asking for personal opinions regarding her easy keeping mustang on good pasture 24/7. What has worked best for me with easy keepers on good pasture is TC Lite. The OP did not ask about performance horses or hard keepers, and if he or she did, I would have recommended TC 30. My race horses thrive and win on it. I find my easy keeping show horses do better on TC Lite.

Nobody has any problem with what works best for your horses. They don’t read textbooks and research, they do best on what they do best on, because they are individuals with metabolisms, environments, and workloads unique to them. Some horses do better on a feed that has more soymeal than soy hulls, even though the GA suggests it should be the other way around.

The problems arose when you kept saying that feeding a RB was feeding MORE than TC Lite, stating they have the same feeding rates, information that is just flat out backwards.

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JB, you are much more patient than I. I’m glad you jumped in here so that I didn’t have to.

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No, you are wrong. This is what I posted, “Most horsemen who have eyeballs can tell whether or not a horse needs something in addition to the forage it is getting.” If the horse looks great and acts great, it probably is great. I did NOT say that there is no need to pull blood once or twice a year and I did NOT say to ignore symptoms such as weight fluctuations. You tried to put those words in my mouth.

The only thing you can accurately measure is what you are scooping into the feed tub. It is impossible to know exactly how much of each and every nutrient a horse is getting on a daily basis because forage makes up the bulk of the diet, especially in the topic situation of a horse on good pasture 24/7. So to nitpick over the differences in the two feeds is pretty silly, since you have no idea what the starting point is on a horse that is consuming 15-25 lbs of pasture a day.

I am posting specifically about an easy keeper on good pasture 24/7, JB, and you are taking my statements and applying them to horses in different situations, and reach as far as you can with them. I’m not talking about performance horses or horses who mainly consume hay. Good Lord.

I agree with that. But there are far to many “horsemen” who see a fat shiny horse who is a bit “balky”, or a bit fresh, and assume it’s a training problem, and never, ever consider it’s an internal problem. There’s a difference between seeing a fat shiny horse and assuming he’s just fine, and seeing a dull-coated, thin horse and knowing he’s not.

And you did also say “An easy keeping, well pastured horse by definition is getting just about everything it needs from forage.” which is what I was referencing.

I did NOT say that there is no need to pull blood once or twice a year and I did NOT say to ignore symptoms such as weight fluctuations. You tried to put those words in my mouth.

I didn’t put words into your mouth. I didn’t even mention pulling blood, and didn’t say anything about weight changes, one way or the other.

The only thing you can accurately measure is what you are scooping into the feed tub. It is impossible to know exactly how much of each and every nutrient a horse is getting on a daily basis because forage makes up the bulk of the diet, especially in the topic situation of a horse on good pasture 24/7. So to nitpick over the differences in the two feeds is pretty silly, since you have no idea what the starting point is on a horse that is consuming 15-25 lbs of pasture a day.

I never nitpicked TC 30 vs TC Lite. I discussed some of the factual differences to you, when you had them absolutely backwards.

I am posting specifically about an easy keeper on good pasture 24/7, JB, and you are taking my statements and applying them to horses in different situations, and reach as far as you can with them. I’m not talking about performance horses or horses who mainly consume hay. Good Lord.

You said “You do not want to overfeed an easy keeper.” and then turned around and said it was better to use TC Lite than TC 30, when TCL has MORE calories on an as-fed basis. That is the argument. You claimed they are fed at the same rate - 1lb/500lb, when clearly the TC site says otherwise.

it IS true that 1lb of TC 30 has more of most, if not all (I haven’t looked at every one) of the nutrients than in the minimal feeding of 2lb of TC Lite, for the same 1000lb horse. But the differences are so relatively small they don’t make up for the over 1000 calorie difference (with TC L having more calories). 136gm protein vs 108. Big deal. 134gm copper vs 118gm. Big deal. But maybe a big enough deal in that most horses could benefit from a little more copper.

Being an easy keeper does not negate the need for nutrients. Hard keeper, easy keeper, they are still horses with minimal and optimal requirements. Providing minimal extras in these nutrients is not detrimental to the easy keeper just because he’s an easy keeper. However, that extra 1000 calories MIGHT easily make a difference.

I talked about other situations because they prove that your blanket statement is not a valid blanket statement, and they are things to take into consideration when evaluating any feedstuff, and certainly in the context of your statement that any horseman can eyeball a horse and tell he’s getting what he needs.

And I’ll just say it again, so you don’t make it into something I didn’t say - a given easy keeper might show that he does better on TCL than he does on TC30. That has never been questioned. The only thing questioned are the incorrect facts you keep putting out.

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Backtracking a little to ask about this. I’ve never had an IR horse so I don’t know anything about this, but my friend whose horse was just diagnosed with Cushings and IR was just asking me what I feed my horses because hers are overweight. I feed TC30. Should I warn her against it because of the soy? A little googling yielded contradictory information.

I should have clarified. I was living in Alberta at the time and the only “name brand” RB that were available were Tribute and Masterfeeds, the feed mill RB were way too inconsistent to even consider. The recommended feeding for the Masterfeeds was double that of the Tribute, protein was similar at the recommended feeding, but vit/min were on average lower.
I could be wrong, but I’ve never seen Triple Crown anywhere in Canada. Many brands such as Purina are only available in the east.

Ah, that definitely makes a difference. I’ve heard of Masterfeeds but know very little about them off the top of my head. I knew Purina Equilizer was up there but couldn’t recall other RBs.

@Libby2563 soy is something you just have to play with for a given horse. My horse isn’t IR, but he’s a very easy keeper, and the 2 times I’ve tried him on a RB, he quickly got fat deposits behind his shoulders.

I know many IR horses who are on an RB and are just fine. They are also regularly worked (mine was too, just for reference).

There are other IR horses who can’t take any soy. A friend breeds Spanish Mustangs and pretty much all of hers did horribly on soy, very quickly.

So it’s not black and white, unfortunately. I would NOT use any soy if there are active metabolic issues, such as laminitic, cresty, fat lumps etc. I’d at least wait until all those were back to normal, and then she could see.

I’d also avoid added iron. That makes things really hard. Horsetech has a High Point Grass v/m supplement that has no added iron, and personally, that’s what I’d use. It can be mixed with a little soaked beet pulp.

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Another vote for Life Data Labs Barn Bag. Excellent quality (Triple Crown is my second choice) but price per serving is better. My draft cross only needs 3/4c per day.

I also feed Barn Bag to my easy keeper gelding. I get it through SmartPak.