Ration Balancer-which has worked best for you?

[JB]

@myleetlepony

Another vote for Life Data Labs Barn Bag. Excellent quality (Triple Crown is my second choice) but price per serving is better. My draft cross only needs 3/4c per day.

Note that my next comments are not to get you to change your mind about what you feed They are just to point out that you’re not really comparing apples to apples in comparing the BB to pretty much any RB.

The 1000lb horse needs 1/2c/day, per the website, so we’ll use that as a the serving size by which the $1.08/serving is based, at $65 for an 11lb bag at 60 days. So if your guy gets 50% more than that, that’s $1.625.

1lb of TC 30 is $.60/serving if it’s $30/50lb bag. It would have to be $50/50lb to even be $1, and even if it’s more than $25, it’s not anywhere near $50.Let’s say your big guy needs even 2lb - that’s still $1.20. If he only needed 1.5lb, that would be $.90/serving

Either way, I don’t see how BB is cheaper per serving, unless you’re somehow getting it for a lot less than $65/11lb bag.

How much is TC 30 for you?

There’s also a pretty significant difference in the nutrients on a per-serving basis:
BB is 32% protein, so 3/4c, which is 127.5gm (according to LDL), provides 40gm protein.
2lb TC30 is 272g protein.

[Pippigirl]

@JB

Supplement Vit E and A for the hay-only horses, and Spring will be very unlikely to bring about those issues, because it’s not about Spring. You can’t see the E and A depleting in that pleasantly plump horse over the course of the Winter. What you “see” is the result of a deficiency that’s bad enough, having gone on long enough. And as said above, by that time, you’re behind the 8-ball.

If one was feeding a RB, would there be enough Vit A to not have to supplement it (for the hay only horse)?

[JB]

TC30 is 1000IU/lb.
Nutrena Empower Balance is 600 IU/lb.
Purina Enrich Plus is also 600 IU/lb.

The NRC’s currently guideline suggests that 1.4-4.4IU/KG is “necessary to maximize tissue stores of vitamin E”.

A 500kg horse is 1150lb, which means he requires minimally 1,725IU Vit E, and possibly 5,060IU

You can see the math there doesn’t quiiiiite add up in some cases, and is pretty far off in others.

As for the A - it all depends on how much is in the hay. It’s also an issue that the requirements aren’t well-defined. We do know that some skin issues, such as rain rot and scratches, can manifest from insufficient A. The NRC says anywhere from 15-20 kIU for that 500kg horse (15,000-20,000).

Enrich Plus has 18kIU/lb
Empower Balance also has 18kIU
TC30 has 36kIU

That’s why I’m a big fan of TC30, out of the more widely available brands.

[JLR1]

I have a breed prone to IR and have tried to keep him on a low starch diet. While I loved the convenience of a RB (Triple Crown 30%) I ditched it last month for several reasons, high on the list is concerns about soy and of feed contamination. My horse gets Bermuda grass and a 1 flake of alfalfa. The quality of both here in AZ is not great, and unfortunately there is no access to pastures to graze on. Instead of a RB I’m now feeding my horse Cool Stance, beet pulp, HorseTech’s High Point Grass, Tri Amino and 3,000 EU Vitamin E caps. Its too early for me to say I’ve found the right ratios.but so far he is licking the pan.

[piedmontfields]

@JLR1

I have a breed prone to IR and have tried to keep him on a low starch diet. … Instead of a RB I’m now feeding my horse Cool Stance, beet pulp, HorseTech’s High Point Grass, Tri Amino and 3,000 EU Vitamin E caps. Its too early for me to say I’ve found the right ratios.but so far he is licking the pan.

I have fed similarly to your diet before, however I also included more protein (via alfalfa or timothy pellets). I would encourage you to analyze your diet by weight to assure that you are meeting basic needs.

[myleetlepony]

@JB

Note that my next comments are not to get you to change your mind about what you feed They are just to point out that you’re not really comparing apples to apples in comparing the BB to pretty much any RB.

The 1000lb horse needs 1/2c/day, per the website, so we’ll use that as a the serving size by which the $1.08/serving is based, at $65 for an 11lb bag at 60 days. So if your guy gets 50% more than that, that’s $1.625.

1lb of TC 30 is $.60/serving if it’s $30/50lb bag. It would have to be $50/50lb to even be $1, and even if it’s more than $25, it’s not anywhere near $50.Let’s say your big guy needs even 2lb - that’s still $1.20. If he only needed 1.5lb, that would be $.90/serving

Either way, I don’t see how BB is cheaper per serving, unless you’re somehow getting it for a lot less than $65/11lb bag.

How much is TC 30 for you?

There’s also a pretty significant difference in the nutrients on a per-serving basis:
BB is 32% protein, so 3/4c, which is 127.5gm (according to LDL), provides 40gm protein.
2lb TC30 is 272g protein.

Yes, I get it for significantly less than 65.00/bag. TC 30 by me is between $45.00-$50.00/ bag.

[JB]

Good grief! Where are you (generally) where it’s THAT expensive? Is it a sub-dealer who buys it from a regular distributor? That’s insane. How are you able to get BB for so much less?

It might not matter to you that the nutrient content is pretty significantly different, so there’s that to consider.

BB isn’t inherently a bad product. But IMHO it’s a very over-priced v/m supplement.

[MysticOakRanch]

@piedmontfields

I have fed similarly to your diet before, however I also included more protein (via alfalfa or timothy pellets). I would encourage you to analyze your diet by weight to assure that you are meeting basic needs.

Timothy is great, but it is really LOW in protein. I have an IR horse, so I’m pretty aware of those issues too!

I feed Timothy (grass, not pellets) because it is pretty consistent in the NSC level, but it is also pretty consistent in the protein level - LOW! I use Purina Enrich as a RB, then add a custom blend from HorseTech that includes magnesium, chromium, amino acids and lysine, and Vit E. And add ground flax for added safe fats and Omega 3s.

Alfalfa is a good source of protein, but some horses have problems with it, and it can knock calcium/phosphorous levels out of balance, and especially in young growing horses, that can be an issue.

@myleetlepony

Yes, I get it for significantly less than 65.00/bag. TC 30 by me is between $45.00-$50.00/ bag.

Yikes - I can’t get TC, but LMF Super Supplement and Purina Enrich Plus are both available in our area for around $30/bag. So it is pretty economical. Of course, I have SIX horses on it, so I go through a bag almost weekly :eek:

[moving_to_dc]

@JB

Good grief! Where are you (generally) where it’s THAT expensive? Is it a sub-dealer who buys it from a regular distributor? That’s insane…

We have the same issue locally. The closest “Southern States” to me isn’t a franchise??? (Hope I am using the correct terms?) so it is able to set it’s own prices for Triple Crown products. Everything in the TC line is $6-15 higher at the local store, vs. driving another 15 miles to a “real” Southern States.

I am amazed at how many local people do not know the price difference, and have purchased TC products at the higher prices for YEARS.

[JB]

Goodness. But I can see that I guess. I’d been using Progressive’s RB for a while, but the closest place for me (by over an hour) was buying it from the distributor that hour away (among other products), so was already costing a little more. But then for whatever reason, the price jumped almost $10, and at the rate I was feeding it (lactating mare and her colt) I had to switch.

[TWH_Girl]

I like Essential K GC Plus. I use it for my retired one and don’t need to feed a separate joint supplement.

http://www.tributehorsefeeds.com/catalog/performance/essential-k-gc-plus-928ekgc-12/

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

I agree with that. But there are far to many “horsemen” who see a fat shiny horse who is a bit “balky”, or a bit fresh, and assume it’s a training problem, and never, ever consider it’s an internal problem. There’s a difference between seeing a fat shiny horse and assuming he’s just fine, and seeing a dull-coated, thin horse and knowing he’s not.

Fat horses aren’t fine in my opinion, they are overfed. And way way too many people try to feed good behavior into a horse when it is a training problem since they don’t know how to train. I’ve had this discussion with both my racetrack vet and my farm vet, and nutritional deficiencies are rare (other than known selenium soil deficiencies and other localized soil deficiencies).

“Reports of uncomplicated nutrient deficiencies in horses are rare. The nutrients most likely to be deficient are caloric sources, protein, calcium, phosphorus, copper, sodium chloride, and selenium, depending on age and type of horse and geographic area. Signs of deficiency are frequently nonspecific, and diagnosis may be complicated by deficiencies of several nutrients simultaneously. The consequences of increased susceptibility to parasitism and bacterial infections may be superimposed over still other clinical signs. Simple excesses are more common. Nutrients most commonly given in excess of needs, leading to toxicity or induced deficits of other nutrients, are energy, phosphorus, iron, copper, selenium, and vitamin A.”

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/management-and-nutrition/nutrition-horses/nutritional-diseases-of-horses

[JB]

Well, fat horses aren’t fine in my opinion either, and in the factual context of health, they aren’t fine. That wasn’t the point - the point was that many “horsemen” see a fat horse, even made it that way, and think it IS fine. The whole point of that is that far too many people cannot look at a horse and tell how he’s doing from a nutrition perspective, and too often not from a caloric perspective.

It’s already a proven fact that perspective of weight has gotten skewed. The more overweight a person is the less likely they are to see their kids and animals as overweight.

Of course reports of uncomplicated nutrient deficiencies are rare. I never said otherwise. But people don’t report copper and zinc and E and Se and A deficiencies very often, because if they ever do realize it’s a problem (ie recurring or persistent skin issues), they remedy it and move on. Except for the many, many people who just want to buy the latest most popular cream or spray or wash because it never occurs to them that it’s a deficiency. Usually only the most severe cases get reported, IME

I don’t know anyone who has reported their horse’s bloodwork showing low E or Se or magnesium. Vets aren’t required to.

[myleetlepony]

@JB

Good grief! Where are you (generally) where it’s THAT expensive? Is it a sub-dealer who buys it from a regular distributor? That’s insane. How are you able to get BB for so much less?

I’m guessing so. I did call once asking for price and availability on one of their feed lines and the dealer said “it depends on what’s on the truck when I go to pick it up”. There is another feed store that carries TC about $5.00/bag cheaper on various products, but it’s 15 miles in the complete opposite direction than I need to go for anything.

It might not matter to you that the nutrient content is pretty significantly different, so there’s that to consider.

He’s on full time pasture with home grown hay that’s tested every year. I don’t need much to supplement.

[Libby2563]

@JB

Ah, that definitely makes a difference. I’ve heard of Masterfeeds but know very little about them off the top of my head. I knew Purina Equilizer was up there but couldn’t recall other RBs.

@Libby2563 soy is something you just have to play with for a given horse. My horse isn’t IR, but he’s a very easy keeper, and the 2 times I’ve tried him on a RB, he quickly got fat deposits behind his shoulders.

I know many IR horses who are on an RB and are just fine. They are also regularly worked (mine was too, just for reference).

There are other IR horses who can’t take any soy. A friend breeds Spanish Mustangs and pretty much all of hers did horribly on soy, very quickly.

So it’s not black and white, unfortunately. I would NOT use any soy if there are active metabolic issues, such as laminitic, cresty, fat lumps etc. I’d at least wait until all those were back to normal, and then she could see.

I’d also avoid added iron. That makes things really hard. Horsetech has a High Point Grass v/m supplement that has no added iron, and personally, that’s what I’d use. It can be mixed with a little soaked beet pulp.

Thank you JB! I have passed the info along so she can consult her vets and try to make an educated decision.

[PRE_Gal]

My PREs all get TC Lite and are shiny and healthy, even with being muzzled whenever they are out (12 hours in/12 hours out). Their only other feed is pasture and a small ration of brome hay while stalled.

[Stacie]

Uckele Sport Horse pellets. 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound depending upon the work the horse is in. No soy. Very palatable. Best vit/min supplement ever. I feed alfalfa pellets or hay for extra protein if I think they need it. I feed 1/2 cup of Triple Crown Naturals stabilized Golden flax for skin (HUGE fan). I also feed a MVP Magnesium 5000.

[Manni01]

@Stacie

Uckele Sport Horse pellets. 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound depending upon the work the horse is in. No soy. Very palatable. Best vit/min supplement ever. I feed alfalfa pellets or hay for extra protein if I think they need it. I feed 1/2 cup of Triple Crown Naturals stabilized Golden flax for skin (HUGE fan). I also feed a MVP Magnesium 5000.

Why are you feeding that much??? Uckele says 4-8 oz. I feed it as well and love it. But its quite pricey and feeding 1/4 or 1/2 pound seems even more expensive…

[JB]

@Manni01

Why are you feeding that much??? Uckele says 4-8 oz. I feed it as well and love it. But its quite pricey and feeding 1/4 or 1/2 pound seems even more expensive…

4oz IS 1/4lb. 8oz IS 1/2lb

1lb = 16oz.

@Stacie if it matters to you, Horse Tech’s High Point Grass also has no soy, has no added iron, and is a flax base.

[Manni01]

@JB

4oz IS 1/4lb. 8oz IS 1/2lb

1lb = 16oz.

@Stacie if it matters to you, Horse Tech’s High Point Grass also has no soy, has no added iron, and is a flax base.

Yep you are right! my fault I probably got confused because I only give a scoop per day on top of my oats and thought that was less. But it is approximately 4 oz. And my horse looks amazing with it. I feed it to my sweet itch horse and I think it helps her!!