Raw dog food?

[Simkie]

I’ve read loads about raw cat food, but not much about raw dog food, as I’ve always figured it was out of the realm of reasonable, pricewise, for two 70 lbs dogs.

With the new puppy coming sometime in the spring (repeat of the breeding that produced this bitch…I can’t even begin to explain how excited I am!) I’ve begun to think perhaps we should revisit raw for the dogs.

I imagine there are some people here who feed their dogs raw? What do you feed, how do you ensure it’s nutritionally complete for your dog, and how much does it cost? Do you have any articles that you’d recommend? There is just SO much out there on the net and I’m not sure what I should believe…

Thanks!

[GraceLikeRain]

Bumping this because I have a 14 week old min schnauzer coming in two weeks and I’d like to start him off on raw. I used the blue ridge chubs for both the cat and my past schnauzer but I don’t know if thats the best route for a puppy?

[lauriep]

Why does it have to be “nutritionally complete?” Dogs are, by and large, carnivores, so the huge majority of their diet should be meat and organs. Adding some fruits/vegetables for variety may not be necessary but also won’t hurt them. But lacking any specific health issue need for supplements/vitamins, you really don’t have to do much else. “Nutritionally balanced” is commercial dog food speak, to make you buy their products.

I feed three Dalmatians and an elderly pit bull (who I only recently switched), raw chicken (mostly backs), turkey (mostly necks), ground versions of both, and mix in some veggies and raw eggs. Only additive I use is salmon oil. I feed one fish meal a week. I don’t worry if I only have meat for a meal or two, and sometimes feed only veggies if I have forgotten to thaw meat. If there is a tenet I follow, “balance over time” would be it. But certainly not every meal.

I have a now 5 month old puppy who has eaten raw since weaning. She started out on ground meat, quickly advanced to chicken necks, then wings and finally, at about 3 months, backs. She is in perfect health and can’t WAIT for her meals. She is still eating 3 times a day: ground in the morning with veggies, a chicken back at lunch and another at dinner, or a turkey neck.

[Danger_sDelight13]

We feed kibble in the mornings and raw chicken necks at night. At $0.36/lb, they’re super cost effective and the dogs love them.

[OTV]

My dog’s been raw fed for the past 2 years. I switched after kibble after kibble was giving him issues and haven’t looked back. His coat is glossy, he has no doggie breath, no doggie odour, he only poops once a day and even then it’s only 3-4 golf ball shaped turds (and he weighs 70 lbs). He’s gone from chronic ear infections and me having to clean his ears once a week to only getting them cleaned 3-4 times a year and NO ear infections.

The only caveat I can say is that anyone thinking of feeding raw needs to do a LOT of research to make sure you’re doing it the right way. I have a vet friend who hates when his clients tell him they feed raw. Not that he hates the diet, but he hates that FEW people ever do enough research. It’s not as easy to just throw a piece of raw meat for your dog…but once you know the rules and ratios, it will EVENTUALLY become that easy.

First, determine what model you want to follow. BARF or prey method. Decide what you think will best suit your dog’s needs. I went with prey method model because it didn’t make sense to me to pull my dog off kibble because he’s grain intolerant and then feed him grains in his raw diet. But lots of people I know who raw feed love BARF over prey model.

Once you’ve narrowed it down, more research so you know approximately how much you’ll need to feed and the ratios you need to aim for. Then, figure out what to feed and where it’ll fit in the ratio: what’s edible bone? Where does lung fit? How bout heart? Spleen? Does a beef neck bone count as edible or no? What should you feed first? For how long? When do you introduce organs? Does every meal need to be balanced? Does liver count as organ or is it in a separate category? How bout raw eggs?

And there are some meats you need to take precautions with before you feed it to your dog…and in some cases, meat you should NOT feed at all.

Then figure out the approximate cost and decide if it’s still something you want to do. My dog gets fed 1.5 to 2.5 (sometimes 3 lbs) of food a day. I have a lot of hunting acquaintances and people who work in the food industry, so I can my meat cheap. It costs me less than $60/month to feed my dog whereas a bag of Orijen or EVO was closer to $70.

The most thing I can say is research, research, and more research. Both online and in books.

[GraceLikeRain]

Just got an email back from a blue ridge rep. Apparently the beef with bone or chicken with bone is truly just meat and bone (no organ). However, the “puppy mix” has “beef ,chicken,tripe,and beef heart,beef liver.” It makes me apprehensive that they cannot guarantee a certain percent of organ because what if I ended up feeding a tube that was 30% organ?

I know that chicken necks, and wings will probably be the bone source that I start out with but I am still trying to figure out how to determine how much “bone” these count for in the ratio.

With a healthy adult dog I feel like there is more wiggle room to “wing it” but that is not a risk I would take with a puppy. I would feel so awful if I ended up with a puppy who had health problems because he did not receive adequate nutrition during key developmental periods.

[diffuse01]

I’ve been feeding my dogs raw for about 6 months now. This is a GREAT guide to read and follow (for prey model): http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/

I don’t do the BARF way… I barely eat vegetables myself, I’m not going to feed them to my dogs!

My main proteins are chicken, turkey, pork, beef & venison. For organs I either use chicken liver, beef liver, or beef kidney.

Not sure if we can link forums here, but Dog Food Chats raw section is great, and has lots of very knowledgeable members who are more than willing to help newbies

[Bumper]

I have never been 100% sold on the raw diet, although i do recognize it’s worth a try. I’ve looked into it several times but for myself in my situation, it would end up costing me more than kibble. I know a lady who feeds raw and does so fairly cheaply, but she lives where she has access to butchers and meat markets. I don’t. The closest town to me is 45 miles away. I have several freezers and could store meat, but again we are back to cost. I have 4 dogs and will be breeding again this spring. We’ve tightened our budget until it squeals, so until that changes, i’ll keep reading and stick to kibble.

[Arbitrary]

OP, try searching - there have been some threads on this subject. (I was asking the same question not long ago)

I feed a modified version of the whole prey diet (AKA frankenprey). The site Diffuse links to is a good source of info.

One of our dogs came to us on a modified raw diet; we switched our older dog too. His coat, teeth, and breath have VASTLY improved since feeding raw. Plaque disappeared! Neither dog gets eye goobers anymore. I will never go back to kibble only.

Goal is: 80% meat, 10% organ, 10% bone. Lots of argument for/against feeding vegetables/supplements. I do, but as treats (carrots). I also use the Missing Link supplement, because I am not following whole prey model exactly and am still pretty new/cautious about raw feeding.

Beef heart, if you can get it, is great (counts as muscle, not organ) - cheap, tasty to the dogs. @.99/pound. It might be even cheaper if you can buy it by the case. Chicken quarters are good (don’t buy enhanced chicken), and about the right percentage of bone/meat, as are chicken thighs (costco sells unenhanced meaty thighs for @1.09/lb where I live). Pork, turkey, beef - all good if on sale. Beware weight-bearing bones. Raw eggs (shells and all) are great in a pinch (traveling, etc) - though some dogs get gassy. Mine don’t.

[diffuse01]

Mine LOVE raw eggs, shell and all. They get them twice a week

To get the best prices when feeding raw, you really have to watch for your local grocery stores sales. Often times they’ll mark down meat that’s close to it’s sell by date, that’s when you buy it.
Mine ate cornish game hens this morning because I got them on sale the other day. That’s all they’ll get today (since they weighed about 1.5lbs. a piece, which is a little more than my dogs usually get per day). At $1.50 (per dog) for the day, that’s pretty good!

Craigslist is also great for getting meat. I’ve had 150lbs. of venison given to me so far, all for free!

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

I’ve been feeding the cats raw for over a year and started with a dog in October. The dog is soooo much easier and it’s cheaper because she will eat (and tolerate) anything. For all three of them (18 pounds of cat and 26 of dog) I need around 40 pounds a month and order most of it through Hare Today.

Here are my last two orders with prices and shipping costs. Cat specific is red, dog is blue and black is for both. I was stocking up because they quit shipping mid December and I needed to make an emergency fine ground chicken and rabbit order for the cats who decided course ground wasn’t the same thing. :rolleyes: Normally I just order every 6-ish weeks. Both orders were 50 pounds with an additional 10 pounds of shipping material counted.

Products (November 15)
1 x Pork Trim, 5 lbs $10.99
1 x Ground Rabbit Organs, 1 lb $3.99
10 x Ground Venison/Beef/Bone Blend, 1 lb $29.90
4 x Ground Rabbit/Bones/Organs, 3 lb, Coarse Ground $50.28
1 x Ground Sardines, 1 lb $3.09
1 x Chicken Hearts, 2 lbs $4.99
1 x Boneless Turkey Thigh Cubes, 2 lb $7.78
1 x Ground Beef Organs, 1 lb $2.49
2 x Ground Chicken/Bones/Organs, 3 lb, Coarse Ground $14.34
1 x Ground Chicken Organs, 1 lb $2.69
1 x Ground Goat/Bones/Organs, 3 lb, Course Ground $11.85
3 x Pork Bones -SMALL. 2 lbs $12.54
Sub-Total: $154.93
United Parcel Service (1 pkg x 60 lbs total) (UPS Ground, 2 Days) : $23.95
Total: $178.88

Products (November 29)
3 x Ground Venison/Beef/Bone Blend, 3 lb, Coarse Grind $26.91
1 x Pork Hearts, 5 lbs $9.99
1 x Rabbit Pieces 3 lbs $12.57
6 x Ground Rabbit/Bones/Organs, 2 lb $50.28
1 x Whole Dressed Quail, 4 per bag $16.99
1 x 1 Week Old Quail, 16 per bag $11.99
1 x Beef Trim, 5 lbs $10.99
1 x Chicken Hearts, 2 lbs $4.99
1 x Duck Wingss, 2 lbs $5.59
2 x Ground Beef Organs, 1 lb $4.98
6 x Ground Chicken/Bones/Organs, 1 lb $14.34
Sub-Total: $169.62
United Parcel Service (1 pkg x 60 lbs total) (UPS Ground, 2 Days) : $23.95
Total: $193.57

I get chicken backs (for the dog) at the grocery store for less than $1 a pound and feed them all some boneless chicken thigh when we are eating it. The dog gets a meal of whatever beef (except ground) we are having, too.

I don’t supplement with anything other than taurine for the cats, only because they eat a lot of rabbit. I prefer the mostly ground method for them so I know they not picking around organs but the dog usually gets one ground meal a day, a bone heavy one 3 times a week and boneless with organs the other four meals. They aren’t always getting the 80/10/10 ratio on a daily basis but it averages out over the week.

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;6050741]
Just got an email back from a blue ridge rep. Apparently the beef with bone or chicken with bone is truly just meat and bone (no organ). However, the “puppy mix” has “beef ,chicken,tripe,and beef heart,beef liver.” It makes me apprehensive that they cannot guarantee a certain percent of organ because what if I ended up feeding a tube that was 30% organ?

I know that chicken necks, and wings will probably be the bone source that I start out with but I am still trying to figure out how to determine how much “bone” these count for in the ratio.

With a healthy adult dog I feel like there is more wiggle room to “wing it” but that is not a risk I would take with a puppy. I would feel so awful if I ended up with a puppy who had health problems because he did not receive adequate nutrition during key developmental periods.[/QUOTE]

Love Blue Ridge, been feeding it for about a year now. My farrier and his veterinarian wife opened up a pet store and now he brings it to me. Fairly inexpensive. I just mix it with SOJOS mix. You could always feed one kibble meal. Get a high quality grain free kibble.

[Hannahsmom]

I switched a couple of months ago and have been very happy. I really didn’t want to deal with all the chicken backs, necks, etc. so I went the easy way with starting out with Natures Variety Medallions (which I still use for shows as it’s easy to pack the portions). A lot of your better pet stores will carry this in thier freezer so it’s easiy to find. Then I went ahead and got the 10 pound chubs of Bravo which a local pet shop carries. The chub already has the meat, organs, veggies, etc. already ground up. You can google Bravo raw dog food to find out more. And finally some friends put me in contact with a company that grinds them up and sells in 2 pound deli containers which are the most cost effective for me. I find these types are easy, I’m not worrying about getting the right mix and it is not that expensive (about 1.90 a pound for chicken). So I’m finding that it isn’t any less convenient for me than kibble. I’m feeding small dogs though. And as others said, I LOVE the small poops, both dogs lost some weight (due to the carbs in kibble), and I’m really happy with how they look and they truly love the food. I was feeding a high quality kibble (EVO) but I prefer this much more.

[Hannahsmom]

Forgot to add that I too add in Salmon Oil and a good dog vitamin that I get from Natures Farmacy. The vitamin is one I started my dogs on a few years ago after picking some up at the big Louisville cluster shows.

[Simkie]

Thank you for all the input and links! We’d go prey model–I’ve been working on getting the dogs to only meat kibbles, and it seems wrong to go back to veggies and fruit after that. I realize dogs aren’t OBLIGATE carnivores like kitties are, but I just don’t see the need for a whole lot of other stuff.

We accidentally bought a non-organic chicken from Whole Foods, so I cut it up and have been feeding it to Koa. She’s done beautifully with it, once she understood she COULD eat all the bits and bones. I’d need to find a source of cheap meat and bones to continue…with the new puppy coming in the spring, it looks like we’d be in the 3 - 5 pounds/day ballpark.

Any thoughts on feeding some raw while still feeding kibble? Is there any benefit, or do I need to switch totally to see a change? The points about not screwing up a puppy are good ones, I think, and the cost issue would probably really play into that choice as well. I’m not unhappy with the kibble I feed (Pinnacle Peak) but I think there certainly may be benefit in raw…

[dalpal]

I know several folks who mix…including my farrier’s wife who is a veterinarian and raises/breeds GSDs. They do a 1/2 pound of meat WITH kibble at each meal.

[GraceLikeRain]

I’ve read that mixing kibble with raw slows down raw digestion resulting in the raw food and thus bacteria sitting in the stomach for a longer period of time. I don’t know if anyone has actually done a study on this or if it is just speculation but I thought I would throw it out there.

[OTV]

Yep, I too read that you while you can feed a half and half diet of raw and kibble, it shouldn’t be fed at the same meal. I think kibble takes something like 8-10 hours to digest and raw only takes 4-6 or something.

If you do want to do raw and kibble, which is how I started out, feed separate meals. I fed raw in the morning since there was less time between breakfast and dinner, than there was between supper and breakfast (most days). Fed raw at 9am, and kibble at 6.

I saw good results but not as quickly and not as noticeable as with a full raw diet, even though the kibble I was feeding was grain-free (EVO red meat).

[dalpal]

Yeah, I’ve heard that too…but I think it’s bogus. I’ve fed the two together and been fine. That’s how my farrier and his wife always feed and their dogs are fine.

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

Bogus or not, they are two completely different food types and I’d feed them separately. Especially in the beginning when you’ll want to monitor any effects raw might have on the digestive system.

Simkie, if you are comfortable with grocery store food, that’s your best bet. It can be tricky to find what you need when you need it so stock up on sale items and organ meat. Chicken backs, split breasts, leg quarters, heart, liver and kidneys are available for me locally and cheaply but they come and go pretty fast. I was never able to get the cats to eat liver and kidney that wasn’t lovingly pureed and smeared over every bite of their food so I gave up and went to mostly ground for them, but I’m sure the dog would inhale whatever I put on her plate. FTR, the 10% organ requirement is half liver (very important!) and half another secreting organ like kidney or spleen. Heart, gizzards, lung, tripe, etc. count as meat.

Including shipping, I pay around $3.50 a pound for the specialty (dog) food I order from HT, less than $2 for grocery store chicken and occasionally get beef or lamb if it’s under $5. Not sure why, but I have an aversion to grocery store pork for the animals. :lol: The canned food I’d be feeding instead is roughly $3 a pound and the last time I looked at commercial raw it was in the $10 a pound range. I don’t like making special trips so mail order and grocery store works for me.

International markets are great for finding odd foods but, I’ve found, sketchy on quality. I’ve had to throw away more foul smelling chicken hearts than I care to remember. There is an organic butcher on my husband’s way home from work that has a lot of cool stuff (and they are knowledgeable about the raw diet!) but it’s crazy expensive. Still, I will sometimes pay double for rabbit or quail just to have it fresh and thawed so I can portion it out for freezing right away. Farmer’s markets and co-ops are also great sources and so is craigslist. If an animal is being butchered somewhere, there are parts going in the trash that might be suitable for a dog. Call around and ask. You’ll be surprised by the underground pet food raw diet movement. :lol: