Re-rider: Perspective needed on horse sale descriptors

[Artistinnature]

I’m just shy of 60 (jayzus, how’d that happen) and coming back to riding after several decades away (BN/N eventing in my 20s and 30s.) It wasn’t total withdrawal: occasional lessons, and leasing a butthead of an ISH for a few months, but all barns or lessons were 35 to 50 minutes’ drive each way, so too much schedule friction to do more than once a week (yeah, I’m a slacker). Now there’s a new indoor arena and boarding just 10 minutes away, I can think about horses in my life again, yay!

I am currently riding and lessoning with a 14 y.o. Andalusian/Lusitano X gelding who is sweet and educated, but has some arthritis in his pasterns, is lazy, and cannot do trail rides, jumping, or work in an indoor arena (spooks at everything.) This being Montana, indoor arenas are essential to winter riding. His owner has offered him for riding whenever, and I’m tuning us both up to show at Training level dressage in September. (He’s been off work for 8 months).

As I start casually looking at the dressage horse market to educate myself and think about my own mount, I need clarification on the terms being used. To wit:

When I see horse suitability described as being for “confident”, “intermediate” or “experienced” riders only, I’ve been assuming ‘experienced’ = ‘can ride GP and/or bucking broncos’. That’s not me, but I have no idea where I’d fit in this spectrum.

As for horse temperament, I don’t want super hot, or bucks/spooks/bolts/etc. (have ridden all those, not a fan.) But I also want a horse that is light to the aids, balanced between leg and rein, a good ‘go’ button, that enjoys the work and wants to Do The Things (and maybe compete up to Third level). Is this a 3? 5? or…?

When sellers say they want a ‘good home’…um. My (potential) horse would be boarded, living outside in pasture with other horses, being ridden / handled / etc. 2 to 4 times a week, trail riding occasionally, jumping whenever we can for the fun of it, and going to a few dressage shows. (Also being clicker trained, since I train and compete in dog agility, and I just can’t help myself.) Clueless whether this = good home.

Finally, am I an AA? or is that just for people who are Serious and ride 5+ days a week in a program?

So…please help me figure out what horse sales terminology applies to me. I enjoy this forum and value the depth of experience and knowledge here, and look forward to your perspectives (and good humor).

[Scribbler]

@Artistinnature

I’m just shy of 60 (jayzus, how’d that happen) and coming back to riding after several decades away (BN/N eventing in my 20s and 30s.) It wasn’t total withdrawal: occasional lessons, and leasing a butthead of an ISH for a few months, but all barns or lessons were 35 to 50 minutes’ drive each way, so too much schedule friction to do more than once a week (yeah, I’m a slacker). Now there’s a new indoor arena and boarding just 10 minutes away, I can think about horses in my life again, yay!

I am currently riding and lessoning with a 14 y.o. Andalusian/Lusitano X gelding who is sweet and educated, but has some arthritis in his pasterns, is lazy, and cannot do trail rides, jumping, or work in an indoor arena (spooks at everything.) This being Montana, indoor arenas are essential to winter riding. His owner has offered him for riding whenever, and I’m tuning us both up to show at Training level dressage in September. (He’s been off work for 8 months).

As I start casually looking at the dressage horse market to educate myself and think about my own mount, I need clarification on the terms being used. To wit:

When I see horse suitability described as being for “confident”, “intermediate” or “experienced” riders only, I’ve been assuming ‘experienced’ = ‘can ride GP and/or bucking broncos’. That’s not me, but I have no idea where I’d fit in this spectrum.

As for horse temperament, I don’t want super hot, or bucks/spooks/bolts/etc. (have ridden all those, not a fan.) But I also want a horse that is light to the aids, balanced between leg and rein, a good ‘go’ button, that enjoys the work and wants to Do The Things (and maybe compete up to Third level). Is this a 3? 5? or…?

When sellers say they want a ‘good home’…um. My (potential) horse would be boarded, living outside in pasture with other horses, being ridden / handled / etc. 2 to 4 times a week, trail riding occasionally, jumping whenever we can for the fun of it, and going to a few dressage shows. (Also being clicker trained, since I train and compete in dog agility, and I just can’t help myself.) Clueless whether this = good home.

Finally, am I an AA? or is that just for people who are Serious and ride 5+ days a week in a program?

So…please help me figure out what horse sales terminology applies to me. I enjoy this forum and value the depth of experience and knowledge here, and look forward to your perspectives (and good humor).

I would talk this over with your coach who knows your riding. The hardest thing in the world is giving an accurate assessment of an ammies riding. There are so many metrics. There is seat, there is balance, there is fitness, there is tact with aids, there is stamina, there is courage, and then there are personal preferences in regard to zip or not in a horse. Some people can disregard or work through a bit of spook, buck, bolt, jig, prance, others are completely devastated by such things. Some people can fix ground work holes and some can fix holes in riding training.

If we had all the pieces we’d be pros or ammies equivalent to pros. But we don’t.

If I compare myself to other ammies my age I am Experienced. But if I compare myself to pros I am always going to be Intermediate. But if you think about Intermediate in terms of lots of junior programs, that’s usually a 12 year old who is jumping crossrails.

Anyhow if the horse is going w t c and showing First Level for instance, they don’t expect you to be a bronc rider. They just don’t want to have to wade through dozens of total beginners or 8 year olds wanting a trial ride.

Your best bet is to chat with the seller before you visit and ask what they mean, and be honest about your own quirks. No one can tell what some random seller means by intermediate.

You however do not want a true beginner friendly kid safe horse because that’s not going to have enough zip for what you want.

Good home is just a catch all term meaning they reserve the right not to sell horse to the first fool that turns up with cash. You’d need to ask what they mean by that too. It’s very individual.

[MadTrotter]

So what those descriptors means depends entirely on the seller! One woman’s 4 is just a forward, light off the leg ride that would unbalance a beginner, and another’s means something that will work quietly in an arena but dances around and won’t trail ride bc it spooks at everything. I’ve very rarely seen anything above a 5 Generally 4 to me means a young, energetic horse that needs a job and needs to work regularly. 5+ means some serious quirks.

If you want to trail ride and take the horse out without direct supervision, this requires taking stock of your tolerance for shenanigans. From your description, if you don’t want any spook, on the trail or at shows, you don’t want a horse that “works best in a program” or “suited for confident intermediate rider” or is rated anything above a 2.

So my advice is, find something you like that’s doing the job you want NOW… call and feel out the seller. Be honest about your experience and comfort range.

I’m younger, but a mom now and definitely at the “won’t ride bolt or rear” phase of my life. Bucking doesn’t phase me if it’s not dirty, I don’t love spooky nervous reactions but if the horse is green and reasonably sane I will work through that.

If I were you, I would want to work with a trainer or an experienced friend to sort through, or ideally snag something off market

Good luck!! Keep us updated and post pics!!!

[Artistinnature]

Excellent perspective - just what I needed! I don’t really have a coach; lessons are coming from the Andalusian-Lusitano’s owner, who is a bronze medalist. Hadn’t thought about the “good home” term meaning what you describe, but makes total sense. And yes, I don’t want a deadhead! The horse I owned back in my eventing days was an Appendix QH that I realize now really was the goodest boy: he was light to the leg, only spooked a little (at waves when we rode on the beach, f’rinstance), had one dirty stop in all the years with him, and did his best to do everything I asked. I’d love another like him, built a little more for dressage.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts!

[four2farm]

I am 53 and definitely an AA. There is a group of us at my barn called the AA+ ( + stands jokingly for RP) Regular adult amateurs are under 45 and all ride as much as we can between jobs, partners, kids, grandkids and life in general. 2x weekly is our coaches minimum mandate. Most of us try for 3 or 4.

We are not beginners, we are mostly experienced riders and reriders. We know what right feels like, we know the aids and the concepts. Making our older selves accomplish them is the issue.

I currently own 7 horses. 5 fully retired living the good life at home. My return to riding horse is also home with a soft tissue injury and on 90 days stall rest.

So I have my NEW 5 year old OTTB is at the show barn learning to be an “AA+” horse. He was described as 5 year old 16.3 black bay, AJC TB, never raced, level headed, forward going, green, big stride and capable of going in several directions.

I went to see him and he was pretty crush worthy. Tall, elegant, nice mover, aware, polite and really eager to please. He was modestly priced for the current market, passed the vet check and home he came.

I have not ridden him yet. He is training with my coach this month or until she clears him for me to ride. The plan is for me to get his walk and trot solid, lots of lateral work, transitions, collection, extension and get the basics of carriage. The advanced kids can do the over fence and canter work a couple days a week to keep him forward and interested. He likes to bounce around at the canter ( no buck, just baby bouncing) So far he has been superb and everything is going to plan.

We knew what I wanted was going to cost a min of $20k and I could spend it on training or on a finished horse. I chose the prospect because the made horses I was looking for in that price range were either ready to “step down” with fairly high maintenance, needed more training to correct issues or where in the late teens or older. I also know that my riding lifespan is of unknown length. So the prospect gives me the option of returning some of the investment in leasing fees. This allows my youngster to stay in work and continue his journey whether I am fit to ride or not. I am not interested in selling and am old and patient enough to let a young horse develop in a way that keeps him healthy and sound. I also know it is a slower path but I still find it thrilling to see a youngster improve.

It sounds like you know what you want, read the ads, look at the horses. You will know the one when you meet him. Most horse ads are combination of truth and falsehoods. As older riders we are strange conglomeration of rider, we have lots of abilities and insights yet need horses that are fairly predictable. So I would avoid " barrel racing prospect" or " would love jumpers" and let your experience be your guide.

The quote “Every horse needs a little girl to love” is the biggest joke in our barn. The truly lucky horses are owned by older owners, who have more knowledge, patience and their own money!

Good luck in your search!

[Artistinnature]

More good perspective! especially on the 5+. I’m OK with a bit of spook and can sit it, just not with the total swap-ends-dump-rider-if-possible thing (that butthead ISH I mentioned). Yes, I’ve mostly been looking at horses already working at First and possibly higher.

And I will absolutely take a trainer if I’m thinking of getting serious about a horse. I’ve already been offered (for free) an eventing TB who is coming back from a suspensory ligament injury incurred jumping at a Training-level event; vet says horse will make full recovery, owner has decided no more eventing / jumping anything over Novice level. Haven’t yet gone to ride him; he’s stiff and would need work on suppling and dressage.

I appreciate the kind note about updating and photos – thank you!

[Artistinnature]

What a lovely story – about patience, perspective, and what we older riders have to offer. I do know what I want (have already made a list - best way to know when the right horse shows up), but have been puzzling at some ad terminology…and this group seemed like a great place to get clarification. The internet/FB/forums/social media wasn’t a thing back when I was first riding, after all (though I’m an engineer by training and def. no luddite).

I know my time limitations…so I’d like something doing a lot of what I want already. And great insight on the “prospect” stuff – thank you (lol).

[SillyHorse]

In case it hasn’t been made clear, as an adult and an amateur, you are definitely an AA. I have friends who don’t ride at all any more but are still active members of our GMO, and USDF recognizes them as Adult Amateurs.

It’s exciting to be coming back to riding. In addition to the good advice you’ve gotten upthread, I would suggest that if a horse looks interesting in an ad, call the seller, explain your situation and skill, and ask if the horse would be suitable. And when you go to look, NEVER get on a horse that the owner or the owner’s trainer/instructor doesn’t ride first.

[four2farm]

The one thing I have found is that the horses I like best were described as “experienced rider” accompanied by “solid”. Horses fall into this description because they will not tolerate bad hands, balance issues, etc.

I ride two advanced rider level horses at my barn (while dealing with my horses lameness). One is the “packer”. This guy knows his job, point and shoot, shut up, sit in the middle and stay out his way. Show him the course or the test and he has got it. He will do what he thinks is right over what the rider says. He has the experience to know and has a show record of wins a mile long. He is also too valuable to suffer bad riding so only competent riders are allowed to ride him.

“The Schoolmaster” This horse must be ridden precisely. He will show every flaw in your riding. I asked for a rollback once and got a canter pirouette. He takes every aid, conscious or not as gospel. That does not mean he is in anyway unsafe. Just that he does not tolerate fools or bad riding. I have seen lots of frustration, cannot get to him halt, will not canter, etc. I absolutely ADORE him. Sadly not for sale at any price . I do get to show him and we have had a blast this season.

So seeing your description I would think I would be calling and asking if “experienced rider” means crash test dummy required or does not tolerate fools. Those are vastly different

[SuzieQNutter]

To me an advanced rider means you understand contact, do not ride horses on the forehand or running and you are able to train a horse to do what you want and can ride a buck.

A good home means a horse who will be loved and has a knowledgeable home. So you know what to do if the horse colics, is injured or foundered. Horse will be fed and not starved and hopefully has turnout if the horse wants it.

[Bogey2]

excellent post…great description of what “experienced” means for a dressage horse. If you can’t use your seat, leg rein aids independent of one another a lot of dressage horses will not tolerate it.

[MsM]

When I was looking I avoided anything that asked for"experienced" riders. I figured it was going to be more complicated than I wanted. Likewise “beginner safe” was likely too dull for me.
I knew my preferences and weaknesses and I think that is important for you. Needs confident rider often meant a more nervous reactive type that wouldn’t suit me. But bold and forward was okay for me.
Temperment scales were very subjective. And there are different scales used! I found most sellers tended to use the middle number unless it was “child safe” when they would rate it quiet. But it means different things to jumper trainers versus pleasure riders etc.
Weed out the obvious “no” horses. Have good questions and inquire about possible. Make sure the horse suits you when you try it even if it is different from what you originally thought you wanted. Good luck!

[MapleBreeze]

Sellers can write anything to sell.
I feel like the numbers scale is like a doctor asking on a scale of 1 to 10 if there is any pain - because thats all based on perception and and the circumstance.

I would be drawing my eyes to age, background, and the video. AND the size of the gaits.
Can you ride that trot amd canter is the first thing im looking for when i shop for AA friendly students.

As a seller i hate writing words because easy and hard is relevant to the rider.

You can have a clueless backyard rider buy a 3 year old so they can “not have bad habits” and totally be on the brink of danger (but clueless to it) and somehow live because of the size of gaits and trmperament of the horse, or a totally aware pereon that knows how to compentently ride get obsessed finding the perfect statue horse.

So look at the gaits first and decide how much horse power you want.

[IPEsq]

Since you are in Montana, I would probably shy away from any horse who must be in a solid “program”. I tend to read that as horse won’t tolerate being cooped up for bad weather for any real stretch of time.

All the rest of it is open to interpretation unless you know the seller personally and how they communicate. And there are plenty of ads out there that sound fabulous but the video does not match in any way the sales ad. I think some people oversell and some just try to use as many buzzwords as possible in their ads.

[oldernewbie]

I know of one now that would be perfect for you. Early teens, trained to 3rd, owner cares enough about horse that she will only sell after a lease to make sure that the horse will be well treated. He is also an example of my now suggestion to look at so-called “off breeds” as he is a warmblood/Arab cross. And I think he exemplifies the hint above to network through trainers to find what you want.

I own a horse you would like too but as he is the perfect horse for me (age 70 re-rider) he ain’t going anywhere!

ETA: this is NOT a sales ad, just an example of how those unicorns are out there, just takes a bit of digging and visiting in person to find them!

[Paint_Party]

@Artistinnature

being ridden / handled / etc. 2 to 4 times a week, trail riding occasionally, jumping whenever we can for the fun of it, and going to a few dressage shows.

To me it sounds like you’re looking for a horse that’s not a specialist. It’s what we’d call an “all arounder.” So I’d be upfront in your search that yes, you want to primarily ride dressage, but you also want to enjoy other activities, too.

Since you aren’t going to be working or riding the horse full-time, and you want a horse that’s amenable to a variety of situations— including trail riding— I’d suggest focusing on an easy-going attitude, with a horse that “settles in” to new environments. My own horse just turned four, and he is laidback and adaptable. I compete him indoors but can also ride him on the trail alongside the highway. He was sort of just born that way. Yet I also ride another horse that’s the same age but hot, spooky and resistant. Would never trail ride that one, at least not until maybe 2024.

It’s very true that sellers can say just about anything in their ads, and edited videos can be extremely misleading. Recently, I’ve been surprised reading ads for horses that I know personally. The descriptions are not entirely truthful regarding the horses’ level of training, potential and temperament. A good horseperson with an educated eye would spot the discrepancies immediately. But not a novice. So do your research. Enlist the help of a trainer or savvy, knowledgeable friend if possible. And never feel rushed to make a decision.

Good luck and welcome back to the world of horses!

[eightpondfarm]

i had not idea that temperaments were numbered nowdays. Now i guess i’ll be ‘numbering’ all my horses LOL

[atr]

Stay far away from anything described as a “pro ride.” Generally translates as “talented but insane.”

A healthy dose of cynicism will serve you well!

[Willesdon]

Seller’s ad: 16.3 black Hann, established lateral work, good in stable, farrier, loading.

Buyer, on going to look: 15.3 dark bay, no papers (but previous owner said it was definitely a WB), really good at going sideways when napping, OK in stable as it bites really hard only occasionally, the farrier will shoe with medication and it obviously did travel to the barn though no one has managed to get it off the property since…

“Horse trading” has been a dodgy process for as long as people have been riding horses.

The other BIG problem is that a horse is on the other side of the partnership. Regardless of how they are described, or what the training or actual experience may be, a horse may simply like one human and work with them really well, regardless of the person’s competence or the horse may take a dislike and the human then has to live the consequences, regardless of the equine’s training. Sometimes horse and human just don’t jell.

In my experience, buy a horse you like the look of, one that takes your eye or lifts your heart. Then start off with minimal expectations to build up a relationship. The horse can read a situation in moments and adapt immediately.

[Artistinnature]

Just back from a lesson with ‘Truly’ (the Andy-Luso X) who is so sweet but I’m understanding why his owner says he is a tricky ride. — I am thoroughly enjoying reading the perspectives and advice posted here…thank you all heartily for sharing!

SillyHorse, thank you for clarifying that I am an AA. Also, for the ironclad advice about how to try a horse!

four2farm, good thoughts on “experienced rider” and “solid” together (lol at crash-test dummy). I love the anecdotes about the advanced horses at your barn. I’d love to ride either of those two!

SuzieQNutter, I appreciate your descriptions. I’m not sure I would characterize myself as being able to train a horse to do what I want (other than clicker training). I had a short experience with a greenie (who was totally misrepresented to me) - he was fine, but not what I’d expected or asked for or had time to train.

MsM, good thoughts! I like forward — but def not the nervous and reactive. The experience and advice given so far is helping me understand what will be obvious ‘no’ horses.

MapleBreeze, so true on the gaits: I have yet to sit an extended trot, that’s gonna take time for me, and I have no idea how I’d do with a big warmblood trot.

IPEsq — excellent advice on the ‘program’ thing…I’d intuited that might be the case, I’m glad to have you underscore it.

oldernewbie, I can’t thank you enough for giving me hope that the right horse is out there. I’ve read through the “off breeds” thread with great interest; I’m open to pretty much anything — personality, temperament, ability are what matter. (But I’d sure love a little flash/fancy to go with it! have a soft spot for color…). It makes me happy that you have the perfect horse!

Paint_Party, your advice and experience are useful…I’ll be sure to let folks know I do want an “all arounder”. And I’m def not rushed in any way! I look at this as probably a year-long process to find just the right horse, and want to enjoy that journey.

atr — lol…good note.

Willesdon — Whoa (the seller-buyer discrepancy). And thank you for saying the bit about buying a horse that makes my heart flutter a bit! yes! I want some of that.