Really bad bolt in scarey place.

I have to agree

You know, I used to be one of those people that thought that getting tough with a horse is abuse. I’ve learned better over the past couple of years by watching a “cowboy” work the horses vs watching the horses worked “nicey, nicey-oh please do what I say”. Do you want to know which ones are still in work, have their jobs and are ridden regularly and lovingly by their suburban mommy owners?

It’s not the nicey nicey ones…

You need to set the rules and make them go by them. They are much happier in the long run and so is the rider. And if it takes a few sessions with a big bit and a tight curb chain. Well, so be it-some of them just need a “come to jesus” session. However, if YOU can’t do it-get in and then get out-then you need to find someone who can. Getting “in”, but not getting “out” IS abuse.

JMHO

[QUOTE=Belplosh;3182690]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3181985]

Shadow 14, your idea of training is why my QH gelding is now with me, someone who was taught by a man who gentled his horses instead of using brute force. I was taught how to get a horses attention, how to keep it, and make them engage their body, to listen to their rider and think, and to have a more pleasurable ride. Using brute force only shows you can break a horse, when in reality, a good rider gets into the horses mind, figures out why and what triggers that horse then uses it to teach them to do the right thing.

A horse should never fear their rider or expect you to set them on their butt and turn them inside out by hauling back on the reins. Work and consistency and patience along with refresher courses in ground manners, ground work and a lot of time in the saddle is better in the long run. I have seen people with your mind set ruin a decent to good horse. A horse isn’t a being to be broken but to form a partnership with their rider.

A lack of responsiveness to the bit pressure is often the sign of insufficient training or improper training. Some things to do is vary the routine by riding away from the barn after warming him up in the round pen or lunging for a few minutes till you see the horse beginning to relax and do what you ask of him. Dismount in different places every day, tie your horse to a tree in your yard or walk him by the barn, vary your routine. Make him use his mind and pay attention to you. Consistent, patient and regular sessions with him should be what your doing so you can get him to begin to relax and he will soon realize that leaving the barn doesn’t have to be filled with those invisible trolls or spooky and scary things lurking in the shadows.

If you can, have a buddy ride with you on a horse who is trail safe and easy going and laid back, one that nothing seems to spook or upset to ride along with you. Often times a young horse or spooky horse will feed off the more easy going personality of the horse with him and begin to settle down, making the ride more enjoyable.

I think your on the right track of making him work when he gets spooky or upset on the trail, let him know that the behavior he is exhibiting is unacceptable and make him do something he doesn’t like. If he acts good and is more relaxed, praise him and tell him he is a good boy.

Good luck.[/QUOTE]

We are talking about run aways here. Not horses that I trained, horses you and others have failed to train, not my problem.
I am just a solution. If you have a bucker, a barn sour horse, a run away, one that ducks out on jumps and you are at your wits end then maybe a guy like me who can ride it out, set the horse straight regardless of which of these problems you have then why not??
I don’t take on training horses,my time is too precious to me but I will take an hour out of my day and ride YOUR problem and fix it in short order.

My personal horses take 2 years of training to get them where I am happy with thier training but I will NOT put up with runaways, kicking, barn sour or spinning. Never will I tolerate that from my pupil.

So again when someone is on the verge of selling or giving up, no where else to turn and they want something done I will gladly ride it out for you but not take anyone on as a training project.

Your socalled ladies horses don’t seem to fear me and even hard to catch horses in the field come to me when I enter the paddock.

You will really hate how I catch hard to catch horse???

[QUOTE=IndysMom;3183221]
You know, I used to be one of those people that thought that getting tough with a horse is abuse. I’ve learned better over the past couple of years by watching a “cowboy” work the horses vs watching the horses worked “nicey, nicey-oh please do what I say”. Do you want to know which ones are still in work, have their jobs and are ridden regularly and lovingly by their suburban mommy owners?

It’s not the nicey nicey ones…

You need to set the rules and make them go by them. They are much happier in the long run and so is the rider. And if it takes a few sessions with a big bit and a tight curb chain. Well, so be it-some of them just need a “come to jesus” session. However, if YOU can’t do it-get in and then get out-then you need to find someone who can. Getting “in”, but not getting “out” IS abuse.

JMHO[/QUOTE]

Are you actually agreeing with me???:D:D
The lady that I carried out of the field with a shattered, and notice I didn’t say broken, shattered which surgury and screws put back together came back and won a ammature rodeo on the same horse after I worked with him for a few sessions.

shadow14 if you were to look long and hard on this BB, although not so much on THIS forum, you would see many, many requests made in desperation for the name of a good cowboy to work on a problem horse…I’m thinking you might be the guy some are asking for. I think though on this forum, where most of the posters are out there putting a LOT of miles on their horses, not nearly so many problems.

I ride a former bolter and God permitting I will ALWAYS be able to nail her before she can get her neck set and pull that stunt again with me. (We did have a bit of a horse race a couple weeks ago, scared me for a minute but then realized, no, this time its NOT a runaway. Plus I stick on better now. She hasnt really tried anything nasty for almost a year and a half.) I’m with you on this one–I dont ride a horse so that it gets spoiled on my watch, and I wont nurse one along that someone else has tried to ruin. There are some rules the horse is not allowed to break. When the horse tries, correction is swift, effective, and ultimately much more humane than nagging it to death, and much safer for the human than letting little pookums kill the human.

If someone is giving advice look at what they have. If you like what they have and you want the same thing then maybe his advice is good.

If someone is giving advice on how to maintain a lawn but you look at his lawn and it is nothing but weeds do you respect his advice?? NO
If on the other hand his lawn is gorgous, one you would die for then maybe the guy knows what he is talking about.
Since none of you know my horses you can not make an educated guess as to weather my advice is worth anything or not?
Judges have and until I house cleaned a year or two I had over 50 trophies scattered around to attest to my training.
I repeat, my horses set standard of obedience and manners whatever barn they are in and no they do not cringe at my touch. I don’t hit horses.

I know I am going on and on about this but I am very passionate about this subject.
If anyone ever really fights a horse, knows horses and watch the eyes you can see the moment they give up. It speaks loud and clear that I GIVE UP. They own being reflects this surrender, their eyes really show it and at that moment you suddenly become tender, you allow the horse to approach you or you approach him with kindness, praise and gentleness.
The fight is over for both of you and the horse gains respect for you, not fear, not resentment but respect and both of you are better for it.
Watch for the signs and give in instantly when they come.
Show gentleness after that but don’t settle for anything but total surrender.

I had several come to Jesus meetings with my mare over a period of months. I got grudging respect and gradually improving obedience from her until the day I started fooling with clicker training. As soon as she realized I was a human treat dispenser but that rewards were contingent on performance the light bulb came on, the soft expression entered her eyes, and she became My Horse. She’s not perfectly obedient, very alpha mare, always going to test, but doesnt fight with me anymore. A brief discussion, perhaps, but no fight. And she’s always glad to see me.

ETA–I havent clicked her for months and months, nearly a year, maybe more. But she still tries to figure out what I want, and offers behaviors when she doesnt understand what she has to do or should do. She’s hilarious. And, no, she’s not nippy or pushy about getting treats. She knows she earns one for good work, and that the timing of the reward is my department.

Ask my clients if you don’t think I’m intolerant of poor/dangerous behavior.
I just think there are better ways of dealing with the OP’s situation than your suggestion.

I have no qualms about “getting tough” with a horse when necessary.
I just don’t think jamming hardware into a horse’s mouth and hauling on it is the way to go here.
And yes, I’ve owned a bolter, and ridden others and it is scary and dangerous, and I “won” in a french link.

my A-rab

when I was a kid (about 17ish) I was on my Arab - Murraab… he was a COOL horse!

we were out on a trail alone, WAY back in the woods (like an hour in). when I heard a twig snap… or I thought it was a twig…

I gotta say, there is nothing faster or more determined than an Arab that says “thats IT, im OUTTA here!” no amount of bit is going to change his mind.

after a couple of failed attempts to stop him, I realized he was going mach 10 in the woods! sharp turns, trees, rocks, jumps, gullies, hills, etc. you name it… my only hope was to hunker down and hang on. it was actually pretty COOL! :slight_smile:

the more I tried to control him, the less steady he got, when I left him alone, he knew EXACTLY what he was doing… he was going HOME… NOW… the exact same way we came in.

I allowed him to bolt! and stuck to him like glue… it was an AMAZING experience. takes your breath away! Ive never been through the wilderness faster and steadier than that day… I’ll never forget it.

once I got back I realized… he took some buck shot in the butt… YEP! he had a D*MN good reason to bolt… and Im glad he did… someone SHOT US! there is no telling what would have happend if I had held him back, or if I came off and been at the mercy of whatever was out there… vet took out some fragments and he was fine… never had a problem again with him out there…

moral of the story - perhaps your horse was trying to tell you something? :yes:

another example - a friend of mine pressed her horse on, when he DID NOT want to go… they got attacked by bees…

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3183471]
I have no qualms about “getting tough” with a horse when necessary.
I just don’t think jamming hardware into a horse’s mouth and hauling on it is the way to go here.
And yes, I’ve owned a bolter, and ridden others and it is scary and dangerous, and I “won” in a french link.[/QUOTE]

No I agree. You are right. Bailing off a run away at speed is far better then taking a chance on hurting a horse’s mouth. If you lived in Canada you have free medical so it cost you nothing but if you hurt the horses mouth vet bills get expensive.

Since when is ANYTHING in horses so black and white as some of you folks are trying to make it?! There’s a TON of variation between the two extremes of a pushover owner who lets poopsie run them over all the time, and the macho cowboy who rips the horse’s face off.

“What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.”

Sheesh folks. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=IndysMom;3183221]
You know, I used to be one of those people that thought that getting tough with a horse is abuse. I’ve learned better over the past couple of years by watching a “cowboy” work the horses vs watching the horses worked “nicey, nicey-oh please do what I say”. Do you want to know which ones are still in work, have their jobs and are ridden regularly and lovingly by their suburban mommy owners?

It’s not the nicey nicey ones…

Getting “in”, but not getting “out” IS abuse.
JMHO[/QUOTE]

I’m afraid I have to give Shadow the benefit of the doubt on this one. There are many people who have stricter rules for their kids than they do for their horses. Just as some children will behave with just a stern look, some horses are creampuffs and easy to deal with.

But there are those that aren’t – some are more stubborn, some are not as bright, some are more alpha and don’t want to acknowledge human as leader. Some are just nervous and easily upset – just like some people.

So I don’t think anyone is advocating beating a horse silly here – but what is most important is to have the horse behave in a safe manner, and have it trust you. I’ve been known to get abit Western with some of my horses from time to time, but I doubt I’ve ever REALLY hurt one physically (certainly not nearly as bad as the Queen of the Herd, Miss Alpha Arab). Every one of them is easy to catch, trusts me, etc.

Horses respect physical – it is their language. Now, that doesn’t mean force is better – quite the opposite. But it has it’s place…and you can bet any good horse trainer understands that and has used it on SOME horses SOME time.

However, I would disagree with Shadow in just one area – a heavy bit is all very well and good if you are going to keep the horse in it always. But when you give this horse back to it’s owner and they don’t have the hands for this sort of bit, I would think the behavior will show up again if you don’t address the reason for the spooking…which is not trusting his “leader.”

Just because the horse knows YOU can stop it, doesn’t mean it knows the other rider can. And putting a heavy bit in uneducated hands is one of the cruelest things you can do.

Good post Kyzteke. I hate it so much when a horse swings a kick at a human and the owner smacks it on the shoulder and says “Naughty!” If one of MY horses swings a kick at me, my god she’s gonna wish she kept that foot on the ground because I’ll make sure there are SERIOUS consequences. One of mine gave a big buck and fart and flung her heels up over my head the other day out in the field while I was feeding and she was lucky I had no recourse except to fling a feed bucket at her. But the REAL elimination of that problem is more one-on-one work establishing pecking order, respect, and trust. In a herd situation, after a while the alpha is hardly ever challeneged anymore by the subordinates. All the shuffling occurs on the mid and lower levels.

I too would rather have a horse with a sore mouth than a dead rider. But also, I would rather go a step further and say it’s better to train the horse properly in a controlled setting before just getting on with a big bit and taking off to 'yonder and 'thither.

Also like sublime said - there is no ONE right answer for every situation. You do the best you can in the training department and then drop the hammer, only when the crap hits the fan and there’s no other option.

Everything we do with a horse is 1% muscle and 99% mental.

Also it goes back to the fish and fisherman parable. Put a big bit in a horse’s mouth and lock down the breaks and you stop the horse once. Put the horse in the training pen and spend weeks conditioning and developing the brain and you can stop the horse a million times.

Or at least that’s just my opinion on it. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3183226]

[QUOTE=Belplosh;3182690]

We are talking about run aways here. Not horses that I trained, horses you and others have failed to train, not my problem.
I am just a solution. If you have a bucker, a barn sour horse, a run away, one that ducks out on jumps and you are at your wits end then maybe a guy like me who can ride it out, set the horse straight regardless of which of these problems you have then why not??
I don’t take on training horses,my time is too precious to me but I will take an hour out of my day and ride YOUR problem and fix it in short order.

My personal horses take 2 years of training to get them where I am happy with thier training but I will NOT put up with runaways, kicking, barn sour or spinning. Never will I tolerate that from my pupil.

So again when someone is on the verge of selling or giving up, no where else to turn and they want something done I will gladly ride it out for you but not take anyone on as a training project.

Your socalled ladies horses don’t seem to fear me and even hard to catch horses in the field come to me when I enter the paddock.

You will really hate how I catch hard to catch horse???[/QUOTE]

Shadow 14, I have NO problems with my horses at all. My trail horse Terry is as honest as the day is long when it comes down to the getting down the trail and getting me home safely. He and I have been in some situations that I gave him his head and he got me out safely as well as himself. He came with many problems, hard to catch, would take a chunk a hide out of you as soon as look at you, would crowd, slam you against the stall wall, or threaten to kick. He does none of these things now because I took the time to figure out why he was doing these things and then acted accordingly. It didn’t take laying him on his butt with a big bit. It took time, patience and work on both our parts.

I have his sister who hates water because she was forced to go into it and also hates to be trailered. I can do both with her now if I am patient and take the time to let her see her surroundings and sniff at the stream or trailer. She has broken several halters because big macho cowboys think they can manhandle her and make her do what they want…wrong. She is a very sensitive mare who reacts accordingly to her situation.

My draft mare was manhandled by men and by the farrier who worked on her. She hated to lift her hind hooves and yes, would strike downward or refuse to pick her hooves up. Now, she is 110% better than she was 4 years ago, and each day she gets even better.

I don’t think how you come across is right, I would never take a horse to someone like you as I have seen the end results and it isn’t brute force or anything like that. You can catch my horses, you can put children on them, they are easy going and laid back.

To each his own…and like you, I too use to ride hard to deal with horses or those that the owner was timid and let them get away with murder, I rode accordingly and never was as cruel as you are saying you have to be to get your point across.

Wow, I didn’ t think I was going to start a train wreck, or are we just agreeing to disagree?

Bonnie, I agree about the ORS. We were using it last fall. No more winter vacations for him. The stupid running martingale I had on him made it hard to get leverage on the rein. Then we were on a dangerous part of the trail next to the ravine where I wouldn’t have wanted to turn him. You are right, I don’t do dead runs all over the trail so I am not mentally comfortable with it. However, I did watch him running like a maniac all over the field this winter without falling, so I had more confidence he wouldn’t fall, just run blindly over the 20 ft drop off the trail. And he spooked so fast, just right out the back gate, that I wasn’t even set to start keeping his mind busy. He actually ran a 1/4 mile away from home when he turned and came trotting back to me, like “Mommy save me”.

He gets nothing but hay and vit/min balancer.

If he pulls this stunt much more, I will get his trainer out here and we’ll make him spook on purpose and let the 22 yr old trainer have him come to Jesus.

I really think he just saw the big boulder in the weeds and spun and left, cause when we went back I lunged him there a while and nothing else was around.

Curse my arab addiction.

I neither bailed nor sustained injury.
As for vet bills, I can cover most of those.

From what I’ve read here about bolting, I want to share two things…

  1. I am going to work with the best trainer that I found at the Mustang Challenge. The end result of the challenge alone convinced me that the result counts far more than the means itself. I truly enjoyed watching the trainers using very light aids to ride on their Mustang in front of huge noisy crowd. The horses and trainers look so vibrant and happy that I want to have the same kind of relationship with my horses. I did not see any signs of “harsh training”…just pure pleasure of working together. If I have a bolting problem, then I’d just go to one of them - either Dan or Lalo. It is cheaper and easier this way.

  2. When my Arab spooked mighty big on me that I fell off, I got so very furious! Would she be able to foot the bill for taking care of my back problem when I go to the hospital? Would I be able to take care of her if I am forever hurt? She depends on me to give her the best care; therefore, she could not be silly. So, I slapped her really hard - yelled at her. I made her gallop really fast for a while…I felt truly awful about it for a while. But, one thing I do notice is that she has NOT spooked mighty big on me anymore. Is it because of me giving her a hard time? Or, is it because??? Dunno…

But, I’d rather go very slowly and surely before I can do anything with her. We need each other so it makes sense for me to be totally confident of her and myself before we go up the step.

Once again, much of “horse training” is subtle, “you had to be there” stuff, so it’s really almost impossible to armchair qtrbk on these things.

Did the OP’s horse (and BOD, I think we are just having a lively discussion on horse training here…speaking for myself I don’t feel like I’m in a trainwreck), bolt & spook o/o true fear and panic or was it one of those “I’m just too frisky for my saddle” moments that somehow escalated?

It’s impossible to tell without being there, and even then we might disagree.

But I’ve known horses that bolted and ran off through sheer orneriness.

In fact, MY first horse was one. Her name was Princess and she was some sort of grade beast my grandfather picked out for me when I was 12 yrs. old because I’d FINALLY nagged my dad into allowing it! Dad didn’t want to spend any money on this endevour, so the plan was this mare lived 9 months o/o the year on my grandpa’s farm in east TN, hanging out with the retired plowmules and eating (I kid you not) STRAIGHT CORN + pasture. That’s what they fed stock animals back then.

Then I could show up three months o/o the year (summer vacation) and try to ride her nasty ass. To make it more interesting, Dad was too cheap to buy me a saddle – I got a bareback pad though <g>!

No instruction, no guidence. Just horse vs 12 yr. old. I don’t have to tell you who won most of the time.

I would ride that evil creature out on the 400 acres and 80% of the time she would bolt back home----she’d wait for that nanosecond when I dropped my attention and bolt. I don’t know if she actually took the bit in her teeth (I’ve always heard that expression, but I don’t know if horses can really do that…) and run like Secretariat on meth all the way back to the paddock where the mules lived. We’d come to a screeching, sliding stop at the gate and the mules + my sweet little Princess would greet each other affectionately. I would slide off, calling Princess every rotten name in my limited 12 yr. old vocabulary. I knew once we were back, there was no way I could get her out again.

And old Princess didn’t just amble back – she ran full bore through these narrow, winding little “tractor” roads that ran through the farm. We covered the miles at warp speed!! No way I was going to bail (I was 12!!), but I could never stop her the dirty B**CH!!

I found her bridle years later, and it was this GIANT thing with 9" shanks and a port bigger than me…but I don’t think they used any kind of curb chain.

Anyway, this went on for three years.

No helmet (this was the '60’s), no adult supervision…just the school of The Horse. Jeez I hated that mare!! I speaks of my deep-seated love of horses that I didn’t want the whole species wiped off the face of the Earth after Princess was finished with me. I have a photo of me holding her, and there is none of this big, “look at my first horse,I love her so!” expression on my face. I am totally scowling into the camera…but I think Princess might be grinning.

I never did stop her ('cause if I’d turned her into one of the corn or cotton fields THEN I would have known what real hurt was all about), and I never did come off. I learned one important lesson: “you can ride as fast as they can run.” It would hold me in good stead in later years when I attempted to become an exercise rider on the race track.

And I developed a pretty good independant seat <g>.

Princess has long since gone to that big pasture in the sky, but if by some chance she was still alive today, I would let Shadows14 have at her and never feel a moment’s remorse.

I agree some horses are satan spawn, but what you described Kytzke sounds like a mare who had very little (or no) training, very little riding, and no solid trust relationship with her rider/handler. She was taken away from her farm - her comfort zone - and she felt she had to get back as fast as possible because after all, a lone horse, 5 miles away from “safety” is a dead horse. If you only show up 3 months out of the year, you’re not “hers.” You’re just some tick that shows up ever now and again to hop on her back and hang on.

I also had a horse that stayed at my grandpa’s house and I rode him 3-4 months of the year on summer vacation and that was it. I did that for years, and I never had a minute’s trouble with him, but that was just his personality. If he’d had the same personality as Princess, I’d have had the same troubles.

Do you think if you’d ridden the mare year round and done a lot of ground training and trust building, that she would have been better? Of course it’s impossible to say.

I guess its the same reason why some horses need a total retraining if given 2 weeks off, and some horses can be ridden 3 times a year and never miss a lick. Their personalities are as indivual as ours.

I’m not a tree hugger and I don’t hesitate to put the fear of god in one of my horses but I do also try to understand WHY they do what they do. And at the root of it all, the horse is a prey animal and everything they do, they do as a prey. Sometimes it’s hard for us to remember that.