Really bad bolt in scarey place.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3184304]
I agree some horses are satan spawn, but what you described Kytzke sounds like a mare who had very little (or no) training, very little riding, and no solid trust relationship with her rider/handler. [/QUOTE]

Well, this mare was purchased for a 12 yr. old child by my grandfather…who I don’t think wished me dead!

The mare had been ridden for years and years…almost completely on the trail. And she was ridden the 10 miles from her place of purchase to my grandad’s farm by someone older and more experienced and she did fine – that was next to traffic, etc.

This mare ALWAYS picked a different spot to bolt and she didn’t go out bucking and rearing. She was just not a “kid’s horse” in that she was very alpha. But I wasn’t going to tell anyone of the problems because I didn’t want her taken away.

But when I look back, I don’t get the sense this mare was in terror…she was simply controlling the situation when she was ready to take control. There are plenty of horses out there like that…the reason they are being pigs is because THEY CAN.

I’ve ridden horse after horse that I was told would balk, rear, spin, shy, etc., etc. and they never did it with me…horses are masters at finding the weak spot. And once PRincess found mine, it was all over but the crying…

[katarine]

This is why you can’t really diagnose or determine what’s up online. You need videos if not real life viewing of what’s up.

I can ride my goofy TWH in a halter and leadrope, just about anywhere anytime. The same horse will hurt many a rider who doesn’t understand him. You hit the brakes (reins only) he’s just going to wad up behind it and keep going…but if you ride him into a whoa…he’ll whoa. Good luck explaining that to someone who has no real notion what ‘ride him into a whoa’ would mean. Shadows solution would only flip this horse. I can guarandamtee you no one can intimidate this animal into not bolting. If he loses faith and confidence in you, his rider- then he’s going home, with or without you.

If all it took was a hard hand and a big bit, training would be a walk in the park. BUTT- I do actually see Shadow’s point: I hate loathe and despise owners who beg their horses to be good, to please be still, to please stand up and pay attention and nod wallow and rub- eeeee THAT makes me so mad, and yes- THOSE horses often do just need their butts buried to reset their brains. and their expectations They knew better once, now they think they rule the world. WRONG. I hate a spoiled horse, hate them. I know I should hate the cause so I hate the owner, too hate it because 99.9% of the time they can’t possibly be at fault, it must be the bit/the barn/the food/the shoes/the moon/the dogs/the noisy neighbors/the cheese ANYTHING but them, and the horse they are holding onto. I swear it’s akin to blaming a failed marriage on the the subflooring, the wallpaper, or the peaches. It makes no flippin’ sense to me.

The horse in the OP: he doesn’t have enough current, home miles and wet saddle pads to be out and about with the springtime sillies- He’s just got a bug in his bazoo and needs some work, that’ s my guess. Glad BOD wasn’t hurt!

[Shadow14]

Th![](s is Shadow my two year project. He is wearing my big bit. I always drop the curb chain while walking in the lane for cooling out. Here he is about4 months into his training. Right after a lady took this picture we hoisted a 35 year old heavy lady mentally challenged on his back and took her for a ride. I later learned the lady had a steel rod up her backbone to hold it’s alignment and if Shadow spooked it could easily cripple her for life.
Shadow with his big bit
[IMG]http://i28.tinypic.com/2hoy3h4.jpg)
Strider my mega mileage horse wearing the only bit he every had in his mouth.
[IMG]http://i26.tinypic.com/2ds0mu1.jpg)

[Huntertwo]

@Rienzi;3182419

I was just reading about a bit that might be a help to you. Now as a disclaimer, I will say that I never used this bit, BUT it sounds like it might help. It was designed to control horses that throw their heads up and charge into the wild blue yonder.
It is a T.E.A.M. training bit, a kind of a curb bit with a copper roller mouth. It has loose shanks, not too long, and uses 4 reins. An English caveson should be used with it, and the chin chain should be adjusted similar to that of a Pelham or double bridle.

As I said, I haven’t used/needed it, but it looks like it would be effective without putting something really nasty in your horse’s mouth.

How about it out there? Anybody used a properly adjusted T.E.A.M. training bit? What results did you get?

I’ve never tried that bit either. But I do use a Combination bit and absolutely love it!

My mare is good, but a PONY…lol… When I first owned her, she would flip the shanks up by tossing her head. Hence, basically no control…

I bought the Myler Combination bit and that ended that!

Can’t say good enough things about it.

[Huntertwo]

@Shadow14;3184376

Th![](s is Shadow my two year project. He is wearing my big bit. I always drop the curb chain while walking in the lane for cooling out. Here he is about4 months into his training. Right after a lady took this picture we hoisted a 35 year old heavy lady mentally challenged on his back and took her for a ride. I later learned the lady had a steel rod up her backbone to hold it’s alignment and if Shadow spooked it could easily cripple her for life.
Shadow with his big bit
[IMG]http://i28.tinypic.com/2hoy3h4.jpg)
Strider my mega mileage horse wearing the only bit he every had in his mouth.
[IMG]http://i26.tinypic.com/2ds0mu1.jpg)

Cute guy Shadow… Is that a Training bit or something similar to a Tom Thumb?

[Huntertwo]

[quote=Belplosh;3182690]

@Shadow14;3181985

Shadow 14, your idea of training is why my QH gelding is now with me, someone who was taught by a man who gentled his horses instead of using brute force. I was taught how to get a horses attention, how to keep it, and make them engage their body, to listen to their rider and think, and to have a more pleasurable ride. Using brute force only shows you can break a horse, when in reality, a good rider gets into the horses mind, figures out why and what triggers that horse then uses it to teach them to do the right thing.

A horse should never fear their rider or expect you to set them on their butt and turn them inside out by hauling back on the reins. Work and consistency and patience along with refresher courses in ground manners, ground work and a lot of time in the saddle is better in the long run. I have seen people with your mind set ruin a decent to good horse. A horse isn’t a being to be broken but to form a partnership with their rider.

A lack of responsiveness to the bit pressure is often the sign of insufficient training or improper training. Some things to do is vary the routine by riding away from the barn after warming him up in the round pen or lunging for a few minutes till you see the horse beginning to relax and do what you ask of him. Dismount in different places every day, tie your horse to a tree in your yard or walk him by the barn, vary your routine. Make him use his mind and pay attention to you. Consistent, patient and regular sessions with him should be what your doing so you can get him to begin to relax and he will soon realize that leaving the barn doesn’t have to be filled with those invisible trolls or spooky and scary things lurking in the shadows.

If you can, have a buddy ride with you on a horse who is trail safe and easy going and laid back, one that nothing seems to spook or upset to ride along with you. Often times a young horse or spooky horse will feed off the more easy going personality of the horse with him and begin to settle down, making the ride more enjoyable.

I think your on the right track of making him work when he gets spooky or upset on the trail, let him know that the behavior he is exhibiting is unacceptable and make him do something he doesn’t like. If he acts good and is more relaxed, praise him and tell him he is a good boy.

Good luck.

I don’t think Shadow is recommending “Brute force” or fear to break a horse, but a good solid punishment for unnecessary behavior, such as bolting which is dangerous to rider AND horse.

As the OP mentioned - she was worried about her horse running himself into a ravine. I’d much rather have my horse under control when I say, not when poopsie decides he is going to stop.

I totally agree with you in treating a fearful horse much different. Praise works in that case. :yes:

But I think there is a huge difference between a truly fearful horse and one that is just being a down right spoiled brat. (Not meaning this is the OP’s horse)

[ayrabz]

this is a GOOD thread.
Lots here that have very black and white beliefs and support, lots that do not. But, through it all, most have remained civil, and the discussion therefore goes on.
My horse is one of those very reactive, very able to learn…but also and forever, when he is TRULY afraid, very dangerous if you are one who is in his way. He’s come a LONG way, don’t get me wrong (!) But his flight instinct is different from any I’ve ever come across. Schooling goes on…he learns and grows up…but when its something he’s AFRAID of…all bets are off.
This thread took on a lot of varied views on that reaction. Its been great to read…and Shadow, even your thoughts (!) you have tried to outline and discuss (although many I don’t agree with)----the good part is: no one is shutting down, or bashing something at this point…lots are sharing and considering. I for one (!) hope it continues, as there are those ‘issue’ horses that we can all benefit from learning a bit more about!

[Bank_of_Dad]

Those of you may remember that June 29, 07, I lost a 5 yr old arab that I had trained daily for a year when he spooked at a calf in a pasture, as I was trying to expose him to cattle. There was only one little calf in the whole field, and other horses, and he had seen the cattle from outside the corral. He spooked, bolted off the lead line, attempted to jump the fence and broke his leg above the knee. He could have just run to the end of the big field and I wouldn’t be having this discussion.

There is no rational thought when there is that much fear, and that’s what my new one experienced the other day. He ran from what ever demons he thought was there. And there must have been demons there, cause they obviously grabbed me and thru me on the ground, and would have gotten him next. Nice of him to come back to see if I was OK. But I also think more work first and more prep, including a little handwalking on the trail after all these months would have prevented this bolt. But not the next one.

I am going to try more preps for ORS and getting comfortable at his high speeds, and more wet blankets. But you can’t desensitize all the fears. However, he does need more discipline and has a bit of attitude. The other horse didn’t have attitude, but was always scared of everything. Both my trainer and my farrier were leary of his fears.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=ayrabz;3184608]
this is a GOOD thread.
Lots here that have very black and white beliefs and support, lots that do not. But, through it all, most have remained civil, and the discussion therefore goes on.
My horse is one of those very reactive, very able to learn…but also and forever, when he is TRULY afraid, very dangerous if you are one who is in his way. He’s come a LONG way, don’t get me wrong (!) But his flight instinct is different from any I’ve ever come across. Schooling goes on…he learns and grows up…but when its something he’s AFRAID of…all bets are off.
This thread took on a lot of varied views on that reaction. Its been great to read…and Shadow, even your thoughts (!) you have tried to outline and discuss (although many I don’t agree with)----the good part is: no one is shutting down, or bashing something at this point…lots are sharing and considering. I for one (!) hope it continues, as there are those ‘issue’ horses that we can all benefit from learning a bit more about![/QUOTE]

Hey, this is the TRAIL subforum; there’s no poo-slinging here. We’re civil folk. :lol::lol::lol:

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Huntertwo;3184484]
Cute guy Shadow… Is that a Training bit or something similar to a Tom Thumb?[/QUOTE]

It is the bit I always ride in. It is also a bit I would put on a run away. It is a broken copper mouthpiece and short side shanks so if his face ever hits the ground I hope the bit doesn’t dig in and hurt him.
A curb bit, and that is any bit with a mechanical advantage I feel produces less head tossers while at the same time giving more control.
I do NOT need this but I find it comfortable to ride with. I neck rein in the bush all the time and curbs neck rein better.
Look at that bit and really is it that severe.
That said I also have very gentle hands and seldom actually take the slack out of the reins. I believe in heavy 3/4 inch reins so he can feel them on his neck, feel them when I pick them up and split so I can ground tie him or drop them in place and hopefully he will step on one if he walks away.
He is taught to hobble both front and hind and you can tie any leg down and he will not fight.
I ride with my legs, my voice, my butt, shifting weight and the reins are only to reinforce after suggesting.
If you teach your horse to respond to suttle shifts, touches, voice backing it up with spur or rein only when needed you get a soft responsive horse.
I teach side passing in the first week , along with back up.
Backing up is not about pulling the reins to go backwards. It is about forward motion checked and flowing backwards is the only out.
I don’t pull harder to go faster in reverse, I push the horse harder in the sides while maintaining no forward motion. He flows backwards.
If I want a really hard sliding stop I ask for a back while looping and he throws it into reverse , reverse and stopping are the same action so if I call for reverse while loping forward the hind legs come under the body and he just digs in with hind end and slides switching to a back as soon as all forward motion is stopped.
Running on again, Sorry.

[matryoshka]

Bank of Dad, FWIW, my new riding instructor tells us that running martingales are not safe on the trail because you can’t help him by lifting his head if he stumbles. By golly my horse slipped going down a hill with a gully, and I was very glad I could get his head up and help him regain his balance. I stopped using running martingales years ago because I decided to ride them to a lower head rather than pull them to a lower head. But I haven’t been riding anything with much Arab blood in years. Those high-headed Arabs are quite a different ride. I hate when they throw their heads straight up and keep running–hence the running martingales when I rode those horses. I just wanted to tell you the flip side of them.

This instructor has been helping me get my horse off his forehand. I’ve been able to do this with others, but for some reason, I just couldn’t figure it out with Butch. She has just the teaching technique I needed, and I’ve been able to refine our riding. Different horses, different needs, different riding.

[matryoshka]

Real spooks

My mother had an Anglo-Arab that I think was probably neurotic. When he spooked he totally lost his head, and it was dangerous to be anywhere near him. He was like this as a young foal and never grew out of it. He’d go over or through a fence, try to squish through a 2-foot square window, or run you over. He also would leap sideways, making it unsafe for pedestrians around him when he was ridden. I had an excellent instructor at the time who specialized in problem horses and problem riders. She really helped us and was pushing me to show him in dressage so we could sell him for decent money. He was a beautiful mover and very sensitive and responsive under saddle.

After a lot of thought and three years of having struggled with this horse (and a bad back from a serious fall off of him), I decided he was unsafe. One could not predict or control his violent spooks, and the rider was the safest person around if this happened. I decided to retire him, and he lived the rest of his days as the herd leader.

This type of spook is serious and not a minor nuisance. Even a sane horse can have this type of spook once in a while, like Jeano’s horse with the buck shot. He must be an honest horse not to have tried hard to unseat the rider along the way! Serious spooks happen, and as Bonnie says, it is important to have the riding skills to stay with the horse until one can regain control. Having said that, I bailed many times as a youngster when I could not get control of the horse. Had I stayed with the horse, I might have figured it out. But I was more scared of being thrown in a bad place than bailing off on ground of my choosing.

I like the answer some famous person had to the question, “What do you do when a horse runs away with you out of control?” Answer: “Ride faster.” And then, stop the horse when you can. If you can’t get the horse stopped, it is time to learn something new for both you and the horse. I think Bank of Dad has demonstrated that she dealing with the problem by longing the horse aftward and looking into prevention in the future. Then, if a spook happens, she’s also preparing ways to get the horse stop if he does bolt again.

This is a good rider and a good example of how to solve riding problems.

[citydog]

[QUOTE=Bank of Dad;3184671]

There is no rational thought when there is that much fear, [/QUOTE]

Yup. And that’s why I wish folks in general would be more consistent in making distinctions between bolting (no-rational-thought, blind panic) and running away (horsie gets stronger than a particular rider can handle).

Sorry for the loss of your five year old, Bank of Dad.

[Shadow14]

Back to the original post. I have sort of lead this off in another direction so back to the orginal post.
The horse spun and took off and didn’t respond to anything. If running a snaffle any time the head is held high the snaffle/ snaffle is defined as any bit that has reins running directly off the mouthpiece/ no mechanical advantage. So the horse raises it’s head and the mouth piece rests against the teeth. Pull all you want and you are just pulling on teeth.
The horse unseated one stirrup and the rider bailed off. A very dangerous dangerous manuver but it might be an out from a wreck but one that can certianly break limbs.
The horse realizing the rider was not longer aboard turned around and came back??? Is this a scared frightened response??? NO the horse was messing with you.
You lunged him in the place where he spun and spooked but what does that really do??
If he was bited with a big western Curb/ and bit with shanks or mechiancial advantage and this advantage can be 3 or 4 or even 5 times your input or pull along with a curb CHAIN, not leather can gain you that control. Putting his head up does NOT escape the bit, it still pulls down on the bars and if you can ride gentle until the spin comes and then reef down on him before he can make a jump you have him. Turn him back around in the direction you were going, yell and if / And I really like spurs, jab him and make him go the way you were going and then forget it, be gentle, praise him and wait for the next time. It will come but if you beat him and I certianly don’t mean physically beating him, mentally beat him he will settle down into a great companion.
After a while of building your confidence and his obedience remove the big bit, go to a small curb , still maintain the curb chain but a small more pleasant curb bit, soft hands, you will have all the control you want.
Dump the snaffle. the really big western bits with striaght shanks, not curved back are cheap cheap, must have broken mouth piece, that is important for steering and only used at first.
Good luck and sure wish I was closer and got a crack at him.
AGain my hands are gentle, my manner is kind and soft right up until they need me to be otherwise.
Honestly guys this Jekle and Hide/ I know spelling/ makes for a easy mannered horse, one that responds as it should, not afraid of you because it knows you will only ONLY react if it doesn’t behave.
If you don’t truely love this animal, feel totally comfortable doing anything with it you won’t give it the time it deserves and it won’t give you the respect you deserve.
Hope that was back on track???

[jeano]

Oh lordy, yes, you can get hurt coming off a horse at speed…the worst bolt Sadie ever did I stayed on and thought I could ride it out but she took me straight at the corner of the fence and spun/slid/slammed to a stop and off I went at about 30 miles per…thankfull not into the fence, though as it was I might have preferred being sliced to being body slammed. Probably cracked half the ribs on the right side of my body, and was black and blue from armpit to mid thigh for weeks. Could barely get up and walk but by God I did get back on her RIGHT THEN and ride for another ten minutes or so and insisted on obedience. She was absolutely messing with me, fear had NOTHING to do with that one.

That was two years ago. Thursday went out with two buddies. Two of the horses were my two, and my next door neighbor who has been so scared of HER wreck on HER horse several years ago that she’s been doing nothing but groundwork for at least two years. She only recently began riding out with us, like about a month, maybe 10 rides total. The cool thing was, it was a bright and windy day, we were three abreast on a dirt road, two alpha mares and a gelding, Sadie spooked at something, Hawk spooked in sympathy, ditto the neighbor’s green mare, and ALL THREE spooked in place.

Every spook and shy that day was basically the same, nobody wheeled, nobody bolted, nobody went faster than asked. It was a GREAT ride for three mid 50s ladies, reriders all, on horses that all three both had plenty of baggage. (and all of us having dealt or currently dealing with, Being Afraid of our Horses.)

Sadie wore a plain grazing bit, hawk wore a billy allen medium shank, and the greenie wore a rope halter hackamore with an eggbutt snaffle as backup. Nobody ever rode with a tight rein, and we were out for three and a half hours and covered about 12-15 miles.

[MassageLady]

I prefer to go the training route-not the pain route.
Please ride with a buddy, someone who has a horse who’s ‘been there, done that’. This way, if there’s a spooky item, he’ll learn it’s ok to not run, he’ll learn how to cross things-because the other horse will teach him. Teach him to pony off the other horse in times when he’s really acting up-take someone with you that you trust that CAN do these things. This is how I got my arab mare trained, and she is great…can ride her in a nylon halter:yes:.

[Shadow14]

![]( brought my working bridle in today and took a picture. The bit in the headstall is my every day working bit. It is considered a training bit, I do run the chain curb. The one on the right is much more severe and if you have a run away that bit will bring them down, that and a tight curb chain. I only use the bit on the right in emergencies and only for a very short time. I am trying to establish dominance then I take it out.
The copper training bit is 2 to 1 ratio so 20 pounds input gives 40 pounds to the mouth.
The severe bit is about 5 to 1 so a 20 pound input would be 100 pounds to the horse. Remember you are only trying to establish control and then back right off.

It is fine to say ride with someone else and that is great but what if you can’t find a riding partner. No one rides out but you??? Our barn of 25 is full of non riders. I see boarders that haven’t rode or bushed or even touched their horses in 5, 6 months
Many a week I am the only one leaving the barn , riding or brushing.
I have learned to depend on no one but myself.
[IMG]http://i25.tinypic.com/ixsig5.jpg)

[Bank_of_Dad]

Shadow:

“The horse realizing the rider was not longer aboard turned around and came back??? Is this a scared frightened response??? NO the horse was messing with you.”

No he wasn’t messing with me. He had run past home, and when he turned back he was going HOME. I just happened to be in his path.

“You lunged him in the place where he spun and spooked but what does that really do??”

Desensitized him to the killer rock that he will have to see daily without attitude. Jogged his memory a bit, let him know this spot is safe. He has to know this, its right out the gate.

Thanks for the pics of the bits. I may get the copper one for my rescue horse until I know what he’s like. The previous owners rode him with a snaffle but he has no bend or flexability, and I know nothing of his stopping. All I know is he spent the past two years with a 5 yr old rider in the ring, and ponying her on trails. He was too strong for her in the ring, naturally. He’s big and stiff.

This rescue horse is supposed to become the stable buddy trail horse. But so far he’s an unknown factor. I hate starting over with all these new horses.

[chicamuxen1]

Matryoshka, don’t get me started on martingales. A properly adjust running martingale is not dangerous, it doesn’t prevent you from helping a tripping horse with the reins, but few people seem to know how to adjust one properly and have them way too short. Now a standing martingale I have very little use for. I won’t say never, I’ll say almost never. And it’s the one that can cause your horse to somersault right on over unless it’s really loose and then why have it on the horse? Most hunter types use them “because everyone else does and I’m a lemming, jump!!!”. Yeah, I know I’m opinionated. Years ago when I was 11-12 yrs old, I was in a jumping lesson. I took lessons from a hunter/jumper trainer who had been in the business for years with his wife. The horse I was on caught a leg between poles on a spread jump and went down to his knees amongst all these poles. I leaned back and stayed on while the horse used his nose like a hand to push himself off the ground and back onto his front feet and up. The instructor then gave us a lecture about the dangers of standing martingales which were starting to gain popularity with the shoe ring hunter riders. He told us that they were dangerous and crippled the horse by restricting the use of his head.

Sorry, I know how to adjust a RM correctly and might use one on a horse that might throw his head high to evade the bit and bolt. That’s about it, haven’t used one in a long time now. As long as they are set long they are safe. I haven’t had a high headed, long necked horse since my last ASB. But I rode someones Arab/Saddlebred for a while and he did have a RM on for competition. He had a neck like a giraff! He needed dressage work but got sold instead by his owner who didn’t have the patience to apply training.

Bank Of Dad, you are so right that a typical RM makes it impossible to do a ORS. After I learned the effectiveness of the ORS and started using it then I never used a RM again. There is a sliding type RM that doesn’t get in the way of a ORS but you’ll seldom see them.

I had a short bolt today on my youngster as we got close to home, I had to time my ORS to fit between pine trees, hee hee. Then my reins were slippery and hard to get a hold of. He knows the drill and as soon as I started the turn he stopped and sighed. But he’s a goosey one, I haven’t had one like him before, he’ll try a run from a noise, from something seen out of the corner of his LEFT eye, from me jumping to the ground he’ll jump a little sideways or back away. Sigh… I dismounted then remounted and over and over again today after I got back home, about 20 times (mounting block used) just trying to figure out what it would take to get him to stand still as my short old body dropped to the ground. Nothing seemed to work until I stood him with a fence behind him. Things got better and I quit while I was ahead. But this young boy frustrates me at times. He’s just not the sharpest knife in the drawer, willing, sweet, loveable, but not real bright, not like most Arabs. A true test of patience and putting my gray matter to work.

Bonnie

[joe21]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3185582]

If he was bited with a big western Curb/ and bit with shanks or mechiancial advantage and this advantage can be 3 or 4 or even 5 times your input or pull along with a curb CHAIN, not leather can gain you that control.[/QUOTE]

I’m not looking to argue, but I have mention that this is not always the case. When a horse bolts (irrational runaway, not just messing with you) the “more force, more pain” method can either be ineffective or even make the situation worse. If a horse is bolting in fear, adding the leverage a curb bit offers can increase that fear.

A horse that is determined to take off, can and will run through any bit.

I have no doubt that you have had success with your method. I have seen many ranches/riders with a similar methodology and it works for them.

Ultimately, however, it is training (of horse AND rider) that stops the horse. Not equipment.

Equipment is a great backup and can be very helpful in many situations. Equipment can also fail, often at the worst possible time. I have no problem with people putting any type of bit they want in their own horse’s mouth. However, if they don’t have a solid foundation of TRAINING, then they are living a dangerous fantasy thinking that the bit (or any other piece of equipment) is going to stop or control their horse.

I have ridden horses that like to runaway on trail. I also fixed them quickly - using a rope halter, snaffle or bitless bridle. Again, to each his own. But shanks and leverage are certainly not required to fix a runaway/bolter.