Really bad bolt in scarey place.

[sublimequine]

Shadow; I’m actually surprised at the pics of the bits you were referring to; while I’m not a big tom thumb fan, they do have rather short shanks, and the bit on the right… I’ve seen worse. When you spoke of this big honkin western curb bit, I was thinking something like this;

http://www.thirstybootstack.com/items/17.jpg

9 1/4" SHANKS, the cheek is even longer. Plus a cathedral port. Now THAT is a “big bit”.

As for using specialized equipment on an actual BOLTing horse, rather than just a runaway (ie, bad habit versus a truly TERRIFIED in full-out flight horse), I think when a horse is in a true bolt, really it doesn’t matter what equipment you’ve got on them. It’s all in the technique and training by that point. And how fast the rider can ride without falling off.

[Auventera_Two]

I absolutely HATE the tom thumb bit but I agree that’s it not at all what I think of as a “big western bit.” And some of those walking horse bits are enough to terrify you half to death too. :eek:

I also have this theory that some horses are going to run even harder to try to escape the pain of a big painful bit. Or do something else like take off bucking or rear and flip. Not all would do this, but some would. I would be willing to bet a thousand dollars if somebody ever put a big honkin bit on my arab and “set her down” she would rear and flip and then proceed to have a mental meltdown. She’s just THAT hot and sensitive and has NO tolerance for pain. I know two other Arabs though that probably wouldn’t do anything but screech on the breaks and say “duh, what was that?” They’re all different.

My other two mares have such a bullheaded, stubborn personality that they would probably tuck their chins and run all the harder. My buckskin mare was a run away when I got her. The woman had quit cantering her alltogether. She had bit sores on her lips (I posted pics of this on another thread here). It took total retraining to teach her brain what the aids meant and to develop the habit in her to obey them. It had become a defensive habit for her to throw her head up and bull her way through anything that didn’t suit her.

[Shadow14]

It must be personalities but I have yet to have real problems with a horse. Honestly it is 50 years this summer since I first started to ride and I have never quit. I ride anything that others have problems with as well as have my own and never has one of the problem horses given me a problem for more then a few minutes?? I use to go to the local horse rental station and sunday mornings take out their problems and correct the horse then go back for another one and under a quick firm hand they all settle down.
I spend NO time on the ground training, NONE. I will NOT lung a horse or drive a horse. In time of trouble I prefer to be up on top and out of harms way.
I just got back from the barn helping a lady on a really live wire horse ride him for the first time in about 6 months. He was wired tight.
Any bit that allows the use of a curb chain can and will pull down any horse I have ever had the pleasure of riding.
Just on a side note. If you are riding with the reins in your right hand and that seems to be my most used hand, and if the horse suddenly takes a jump and you pull back with the right hand clamp your left hand over the reins right at the crest of his neck, clamp down with the left and when he arches his neck he is pulling himself in.
Again it is technic, something that can’t be explained, a feeling between you and horse and again if anyone things I am heavy handed nothing could be further from the truth but I will take no crap.
I’m too old to believe in all this scared stuff, he is truely afraid bull… To me he is just acting out. Do you think that I don’t put my own guy in tough situations daily, I look for them, I invite them and we concore them and he is better for it. I’ll bet there are really very few here that could have followed Shadow’s path just this morning and he will run the gauntlet again tomorrow.

[matryoshka]

Bonnie, the same lady who was saying that RM’s canbe dangerous on trails also doesn’t think treeless saddles give the horse’s back enough support. I’m still drooling over the Sensation Ride you have. I agree that most people using RM’s have them adjusted too short. When I learned to do it, the rings should be able to stretch to the crest when pulled straight up. I’m used to riders using them to create a head set rather than to help when a horse tosses his head up. My OTTB almost never does this. As I watch Roxy in the field I think I might have to revise my opinion. The lady who taught me part of the Foxcatcher ride uses an RM, and you can bet I didn’t tell her it could be dangerous on trail. She’s got a lot more miles of riding than I may ever achieve. Still, it doesn’t hurt to caution riders to a possible danger in a piece of tack, especially for those of us who use biothane, which is not easily broken.

Bank of Dad, I’m not fond of the Tom Thumb, either. I’m not sure putting shanks on a jointed bit is a good idea, since it doesn’t quite function as a curb (which is supposed to rest/work on the bars) and a jointed snaffle (which is supposed to work on the tongue). Part of my concern is that the Tom Thumb adds a much longer lever when the bit is flexed at the joint, compounding the amount of pull the rider could use, especially if one is scared from the horse bolting. And while it is good to get the horse’s attention, too much pain in the mouth could make matters much worse or result in an abrupt change of direction that could unseat the rider. One needs enough bit to get the horse’s attention despite his fear, and it needs to immediately supple once the horse is listening.

If you are considering a Tom Thumb, a safer choice might be a jointed Kimberwick. You can attach the reins to the lower ring and give yourself a tiny lever (not nearly as long as the Tom Thumb shank). Or, if your horse is okay with it, a ported Kimberwick isn’t a bad idea. Again, you’ve got a shorter shank so that if your hands aren’t as educated or your seat isn’t secure during a bolt, you are less likely to accidentally cause your horse the kind of pain that could make him flip out.

[Bank_of_Dad]

Actually, I’m now trying a Myler level one comfort bit, not quite a kimberwick, but with a curb chain, D cheeks, and openings on the D’s for the headstall, curb chain, and reins. Pieces all move independently to lift the shoulders, apply pressure on jaw and poll, as well as tongue and bars. Level one is for green horses, not a severe bit, but stronger than the french link I was using. I have it on loan for a week, and I will ride him in the field, not on trail yet, no riding buddy available for a while.

[chicamuxen1]

B of D, i have a similar Myler kimberwicke but mine has a medium sized port. I got it for an Arabian mare that I competed that couldn’t stand a bit sitting on her tongue. Took me a while to figure this out and then a while to find a bit that gave her tongue room. Until I bought this bit my mare would do the most bizarre thing with the longest tongue you ever saw on a horse! She would hang it out the side of her mouth and honestly, that tongue looked like an old hound dogs tongue waving in the breeze, or she would put it over the bit then gap her mouth way open with her tongue looking like a snake. I rode her for a while in a hackamore but she would lean on a hackamore in spite of all I tried and wear holes in her chin from the curb chain or strap that I was trying that week. That Myler kimberwicke made both of us happy, my arms and shoulders got a break and her mouth was happy and her tongue was in her mouth. I think a nice kimberwicke is a great bit for lots of horses/riders but unfortunately Myler is about the only company that makes a decent one.

Bonnie

[matryoshka]

It sounds like a good bit for your situation. Let us know how your horse does in this. I hate trying to find the right bit for a particular horse. It’s great that you got one on loan. I’ve known of a coupe of horses that did not like snaffles but went great and light in a kimberwick-type bit. I’m curious how it works for you.

[wateryglen]

just my 2 cents!

2 days ago my green broke (just back from trainer 2/28!) 15.3h 4yo perch/qh lost her mind whilst our trailriding around a development with a friend on my 24 yo draft cross fieldhunter as a buddy horse. We were riding around the edge of a field with sheep/lambs and a llama. Llama came running up to the fence line and started snorting/spitting. She came unglued. Old horse got nervous and filly spun bolted and tried to run away. BECAUSE of the running martingale (D ring snaffle)I was able to pull harder on 1 rein and get a couple of tight circles and when she stopped I hopped off and led her past the attack llama. As it was happening I kept thinking…“I’m gonna pull her over…I’m gonna fall off…maybe I should bail”…I was terrified BUT…
This whole experience was totally planned and anticipated for a training/exposure experience. We had planned all eventualities. She’s going to be field hunter someday and needs to be able to be ridden by most anything at any speed so it’s mileage, mileage, mileage for her. I’d chosen my route so that she’d be a bit tired or relaxed by that point. She was already exposed to traffic, trash trucks, barking dogs, walking around paddocks with horses in them so far just on that ride. We took it slowly; I didn’t push, lotsa reassurance and calming talk, pats, let her sort it out. In hindsight, maybe I should have gotten off sooner but she was seemingly going to walk past him albeit nervous & snorty! But I was determined that she WASN’T getting out of it. AND she will do this again. I will take her back to the scary place and stand around and let her graze until she’s bored with the attack llama and his furry friends!
Whenever I think she’s going to bolt; I will sometimes dismount and lead her past after a few attempts to deal and go past the scary thing/place. The important thing is that she IS going to do what I want but since she’s so green & young; I’m willing to allow her fear reactions. Have to be on alert for purposeful acting up to get outa doing stuff. Had one like that once…
Qh gelding used to spook/spin/bolt going out the back field gate to go on a trailride. I thought it was a fear reaction to something that’d scared him in the past there…WRONG! He was being bad. Friend advised I carry a crop and whack him when he stopped or acted scared and sure enough he’d give in and go calmly on. He’d gotten away with it and now I had his #. The hint was this;;;…if they pin their ears in the microsecond before the bolt; they are being bad! Scared horses have their ears forward!!! Lesson learned!!

[Bank_of_Dad]

I think you did great with the llama. I did not have a traditional running martingale on, which was part of my problem, it was one I’d seen used at Al Marah Arabians, and I’d thought I’d try it. My normal one, adjusted correctly, may have helped.

I completely agree with you about the ears and attitude. That %%$$## horse of mine bucked me off the other day. I had him in the RP working on the right lead which he hates to take. I was off balance, shifting my weight a little to the outside, and smacking him on the left, when the ears went back and he bucked big. I achingly picked my self right up, went after him like a lion, made him do numerous laps, inside and outside turns, backing up all over, and downright humbled him, at least for 24 hours.

[Sithly]

I don’t think getting off the horse accomplishes anything constructive. (BIG disclaimer here: if you’re getting off for your own safety, that’s different. Not what I’m talking about. Sometimes on a green horse you just don’t yet have the tools established to deal with Really Scary Stuff.).

In general, I think that if your horse (pick one: spooks, runs away, walks sideways, bulges, prances) when you pass a scary thing, the problem is not the thing. The problem is that the horse blew through your aids, and you can’t solve that problem from the ground.

You can certainly desensitize the horse from the ground. Like with the OP’s scary boulder. You can desensitize the horse to the scary boulder, but the next really scary thing will produce the same result unless you start enforcing the horse’s response to your aids. You can’t desensitize a horse to everything.

Now, I’m NOT saying that you should force your horse into scary situations or put yourself at risk by staying on when you should have gotten off. Ideally, you would practice making the horse respond to the aids despite scary things, starting off in a somewhat controlled environment with a lower intensity of fear and gradually building the intensity.

For example, my horse used to be deathly afraid of mailboxes. He’d prance past them sideways, snorting. :lol: But the problem WASN’T the mailboxes, really. The problem was that he ignored my leg when he was afraid. We worked on that at a lower intensity (starting out farther away from the mailbox), gradually increasing the intensity until I could ride him straight past a mailbox without him bulging against my leg. And that worked for every mailbox on the road, as well as the garbage cans on garbage day, and the trash in the weeds, and the scary rocks, and the neighbor’s unicycle, and…well, you get the point. :lol:

If I hadn’t worked on the aids, I would have had to get off and desensitize him to each new thing. And I am way too lazy to get on and off my horse that much! :lol:

[matryoshka]

There’s a pretty good book on bombproofing written by a guy who does it for the police. He talks about how best to approach something that is scaring your horse. I can’t remember exactly what he said–whether to bend them toward or away from the scarey object, but it sounded good. My tactic is to simply ignore the scarey object and ride by. I react to what the horse does but don’t try to anticipate him. Most of the time, my state of relaxation tells him there is nothing to fear and he does fine. It’s worked for most of the horses I’ve ridden as an adult.

…There was that time that I made him walk between two boulders (I was mad at him and should have known better than to work on it when I was mad). He spooked halfway between the two rocks by sorta leaping into the air. He landed before I did, and I ended up on his neck thanking God there was no horn on my saddle. Lucky for me the leap was the end of the spook so I could scramble back into the saddle and plan my next visit to the chiropractor! If I had fallen, at least I was near some race barns and somebody would have noticed me lying there. :lol: In fact, since my horse used to race out of one of those barns, he probably would have run inside one looking for comfort.

I don’t know how he’d do with spitting llamas. I think I don’t want to find out. Emus and peacocks are also on my list of things NOT to encounter. Oh, and kangaroos. I hear it can be real tough for a horse not to spook when a gang of kangaroos go leaping past. :eek: There was a thread about that on here a couple of years ago.

[Foxtrot_s]

It depends…

Be as gentle as you can be; be as tough as you have to be.

The trouble with these bb’s when we are all anonymous, it is hard to judge the real attributes of the various systems. We can’t tell who is authoratitive and who is just yakking. Shadow l4 does not sound like a hard man in his intent. There are a lot of horses out there that need the confident ride and a lot of horses that are not getting the support they need. Be they terrified, reactive or having you on. Some horses are sort of idiots, some allowed to become so, and others just bull headed. Most are none of the above.

I heard tell of a lady that does the “Parelli” brand name training and was trail riding in just a halter. Horse bolted, and she smashed her face into a tree. The bee can sting any time…I’m sure he was a lovely horse.

The strong bit likely will get the horse’s attention very quickly, even when his mind is gone. But we would all like to get riding with training and time and patience and kindness, but emergencies happen. One does not have to actually use the bit until then.

I’m not about to bite his head of since I don’t know him, and I’m all about being kind and patient. But I’ve never really had a rank horse.

[LuvMyNSH]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;3207048]
It depends…

The strong bit likely will get the horse’s attention very quickly, even when his mind is gone. [/QUOTE]

Except that it doesn’t work this way.

If the horse is either in a blind panic or hellbent on leaving, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a spade or bike chain in his mouth and are hauling back with everything God gave you…the horse is going to run. I see the wanna-be Charros get run away with all the time - you’d think a big man yanking on a ring bit would be enough to stop anything, but I’ve see otherwise time and time again. I’ve seen horses finally stumble to a stop, exhausted, with blood flowing freely from terribly cut mouths. If you’re depending on pain and surprise to keep you safe, you’re already screwed.

If I’m on a bolter, I want a non-leverage bit on him. Not because I’m so nice and don’t want to hurt the pretty pony, it’s because the school of hard knocks and and a couple hundred horses have taught me the best way to save my butt is to get that head around before we’re off and running…or to take the horse down before he hits 8 lanes of busy traffic. I’d rather hit hard ground and roll than roll off the hood of a Buick.

The “slap a bigger bit on” mentality isn’t wrong because it’s so meeeaaannn, it’s wrong because it only works under select circumstances.

Or you run into the other issue, which is where the bit does stop the horse, but gives you a whole bag full of other issues. I’ll take a runaway over having a horse flip over on me (again) any day of the week.

[Shadow14]

A non leverage bit just lays against the teeth, they throw the head up and the bit then rests against the teeth and all the pulling in the world won’t help.
A curb bit, and any bit with leverage is a curb bit and chain prevent the pull on the teeth and you pull on the bars even with the head held high.
I too have rode alot of run aways and every time I pulled them down quickly and if I inflicted pain all the better. They shouldn’t have run in the first place.
I too will NOT get off a horse, I don’t want to be on the ground when he jumps. I gentley nudge him with the spurs if he refuses to move forward, steady him with both hands and talk encouragingly to him.
If he makes a spin I would quickly spur and turn him back into the danger, if he bolts I would stop him before he made a single jump.
I honestly have never seen a really frightened horse, just ones trying to get away with something.

[matryoshka]

Sorry to interject, but non-leverage bits work on the tongue, unless it has a port and major tongue relief. There are combinations bits as well.

I’ll repeat the need to get the head up rather than tucked, which is why I like snaffles. It seems to me that curb bits encourage fexion at the poll, and over flexion if they are trying to avoid the bit. My horse tucks beautifully and can run like the wind with his chin practically touching his chest. I really have to haul back and forth (no way he can keep the bit in his teeth that way–been there done that on a pony as a kid) to get his attention and get his head up. And I mean, I pull straight up if he’s tucking his head. But once his head is up, I can get him stopped. It’s kinda like bucking that way. He’s not running in fear though, just excitement.

I’m not against curb bits or hauling on the bit when necessary. I just think you should ride in whatever bit your horse usually goes best in and prepare for what to do if a horse bolts. Train yourself and your horse how to stop from a gallop so that his training takes over. Also, learn to ride faster so you can stay balanced in the saddle while galloping.

I have seen horses bolt in fear. Maybe it is because of the neurotic horses I’ve known over the years. I think it might be in the eye of the beholder, where if you believe horses never bolt in fear, you never see it. If you think horses only ever bolt in fear, you never see that they could be simply misbehaving. I’ve seen bolts and spooks. There’s the nasty dishonest kind where they try to dislodge the rider, and then there is the more honest, OMG what IS that thing and is it still chasing me? kind of bolts. Either way, a horse who respects his rider is going to stop sooner, whether it is becaue he’s afraid his mouth is going to be hurt or because he remembers that his rider has always protected him from harm.

There is room for both philosophies. Babying a horse through spooks and while approaching scary obstacles is the best way to ensure that it becomes a habit. Horses always seem to learn the bad behavior fastest!

[Foxtrot_s]

Well, I’m not of the Charro crowd. I have a very bold, fearless mare, but she did bolt once when she had smelled bear scat, heard a rustle in the trees, and suspected a bear (well, it might have been there)
and didn’t wait around. Her mindless bolt lasted a very short distance, but I needed to use strength to turn her because she was on the run. Because we have been together so long, she came down pretty fast, but I did need that bit. As usual, it depends…with some horses they run through pain, with mine, she needed a message.

[matryoshka]

Foxtrot, you mare may well have saved you from a bear! Sometimes, our horse’s instincts manage to protect us as well. Now if she’d dumped you there, she might have been trying to feed you to the bear. That’s what a dishonest horse would have done. ;):lol: Luckily, no bears here, but there are some scary humans around.

[pandorasboxx]

raises hand I have a spook and bolter or should I say a former spook and bolter?

I re-entered riding as an adult after being part centaur as a kid/teen/college student. Took 10 years off and then did what you are always taught NOT to do when being a reborn newbie: bought a green, green, green horse. A young racebred Arab mare with a very sensitive and distrustful nature. What the heck was I thinking? (pretty pony…lol)

She was so nervous and reactive that my natural confidence disappeared as did my previous balance and “stickiness”. I started switching bits, going stronger, looking for that control. What I succeeded in doing was making her more reactive, more nervous. Big corrections, a loud raised voice or a quick movement made her lose her mind and then the game was lost. It definitely wasn’t her trying to misbehave. She was scared.

Trainers came and went. She got a little better in understanding my aids but still she was always one step from a quick spin on the haunches and bolt. What I found worked was lots of wet blankets, many miles, a quiet hand and lesser bits. I forced myself to relax and not to tense in anticipation of the spook. I rode thru it all (having regained my “stickiness” out of self preservation), moving faster, softening my response yet keeping her working and forward. I learned to feel and react, catching her in the first step or two, bringing her back and then continuing to work as if nothing had happened. In time, she began to trust my judgement, trust me and even if frightened, stay with me.

It takes much more than a strong bit though they do have their place. I did like the Mikmar combo bit which we used for a little time and she responded very well to it but frankly it was a bit of overkill once we came to a meeting of the minds. We graduated to hackamores and now have her in an English hackamore. Of course, we had a little backsliding yesterday after a long layoff so it may be back to the french link for the next ride or two.

[RiddleMeThis]

@IndysMom;3183221

You know, I used to be one of those people that thought that getting tough with a horse is abuse. I’ve learned better over the past couple of years by watching a “cowboy” work the horses vs watching the horses worked “nicey, nicey-oh please do what I say”. Do you want to know which ones are still in work, have their jobs and are ridden regularly and lovingly by their suburban mommy owners?

It’s not the nicey nicey ones…

You need to set the rules and make them go by them. They are much happier in the long run and so is the rider. And if it takes a few sessions with a big bit and a tight curb chain. Well, so be it-some of them just need a “come to jesus” session. However, if YOU can’t do it-get in and then get out-then you need to find someone who can. Getting “in”, but not getting “out” IS abuse.

JMHO

There is a difference in being tough and being abusive.:yes:

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;3218894]
Foxtrot, you mare may well have saved you from a bear! Sometimes, our horse’s instincts manage to protect us as well. Now if she’d dumped you there, she might have been trying to feed you to the bear. That’s what a dishonest horse would have done. ;):lol: Luckily, no bears here, but there are some scary humans around. [/QUOTE]

Bear or no bear it is not up to the horse to decide when to bolt. All sorts of imaginary things crop up while riding and the horse should hold.
As for the bear my horse stretched out his nose and sniffed a bears paw at the local park, the bear reared up with his paws on the chain link fence and my horse stretche her nose and sniffed it.
I decide when to spook not him.