Really down about my mare. Need help with live cover stallion suggestions.

[everafterfarm]

Here is a quick back story. Mare is 5, not sound for more than light riding due to muscle damage as a foal from a bad injection. Had this today confirmed by my vet as well as we did a soundness exam on her. Mare never started.

I bought her as a 3yr old, bred her, took first time, result healthy colt who has since been sold. Last year she DNT on 2 tries, and this year she DNT on 3 tries. Nothing medically wrong either. Vet can’t find any reason why she isn’t taking.

Vet is now suggesting we try a live cover at this point. I need the wisdom of COTHers to guide me to any WB or even a nice hunter type TB that would offer a live option. Needs to be fairly close to me for travel as well. I am in NW FL.

My other option is to get rid of her as I have very limited space and from a money stand point can’t have one hanging around that can’t breed or ride. Either by finding someone willing to take a chance on breeding her, or to donate her to a broodie band at a vet school(this was suggested by my vet).

Soooo any live option boys out there???

[Callaway]

Where are you located?

[Kyzteke]

@everafterfarm;5681696

Here is a quick back story. Mare is 5, not sound for more than light riding due to muscle damage as a foal from a bad injection. Had this today confirmed by my vet as well as we did a soundness exam on her. Mare never started.

I bought her as a 3yr old, bred her, took first time, result healthy colt who has since been sold. Last year she DNT on 2 tries, and this year she DNT on 3 tries. Nothing medically wrong either. Vet can’t find any reason why she isn’t taking.

Vet is now suggesting we try a live cover at this point. I need the wisdom of COTHers to guide me to any WB or even a nice hunter type TB that would offer a live option. Needs to be fairly close to me for travel as well. I am in NW FL.

My other option is to get rid of her as I have very limited space and from a money stand point can’t have one hanging around that can’t breed or ride. Either by finding someone willing to take a chance on breeding her, or to donate her to a broodie band at a vet school(this was suggested by my vet).

Soooo any live option boys out there???

Personally, I would find another vet. That would be my choice.

What sort of diagnostics has the vet done to determine her status?

[everafterfarm]

I’m in NW FL.

Another vet is not much of an option around here. There are 2 at my clinic that I have been using for 12 years and we have never had a problem like this before. We had the usual culture/cytology done before the first try of all 3 years including the one she took. She has never had any fluid, lumps, cysts, edema, or the like. We did culture again before this last time and flushed her uterus. We WILL do a biopsy before trying her again, but vets both feel trying live even with a normal biopsy is something I should consider. I have luckily not had many issues breeding so far, so is there more I should test/try?

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=everafterfarm;5681744]
I’m in NW FL.

Another vet is not much of an option around here. There are 2 at my clinic that I have been using for 12 years and we have never had a problem like this before. We had the usual culture/cytology done before the first try of all 3 years including the one she took. She has never had any fluid, lumps, cysts, edema, or the like. We did culture again before this last time and flushed her uterus. We WILL do a biopsy before trying her again, but vets both feel trying live even with a normal biopsy is something I should consider. I have luckily not had many issues breeding so far, so is there more I should test/try?[/QUOTE]

My reccomendation would be to do a biopsy before resorting to live cover. Is she being followed by ultrasound to confirm ovulation? Is she being followed up post-breeding/post-ovulation for fluid? Those would be my starting points. Honestly, live cover would be way down on my list as something to try.

Edited to add: I’m also assuming that the semen is being evaluated prior to insemination. Has she failed to settle to just this one stallion on all 5 tries, or are these different stallions?

[chemteach]

How about Claim to Fame as he is in FL. Don’t know if he does live cover but love his babies.

Here’s the website: http://www.flyingcolorsfarm.com/

[Daventry]

If it were me, I’d try breeding her again and do an oxytocin protocol on her. Just because the vets aren’t seeing any fluid, etc. doesn’t mean it’s not there! Oxytocin can do wonders for a lot of mares. The two links below will help guide you threw it.

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/oxytocin.htm

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248405

[everafterfarm]

Some of you have brought up some points I had not thought of or tried. I have been breeding for 10 years now, but have not really had to “think” about much as I’ve had it pretty easy as far as getting mares pregnant and normal foalings.

The semen is all from the same stallion and is checked before we AI. Also used this stallion on a maiden last year and had a beautiful filly born in April and that mare took on the first try. It is a different stallion than the one she has had a foal by.

Nope, my vet has never said anything about checking them after the insemination. Just sticks it in and sends her home. I wish I was closer to a real repro expert! I am thinking I may try another vet who is farther away, but I have heard he has had luck with difficult mares.

Can I biopsy now? I am not going to try her again this year, but I do need to make some decisions on this contract so I was thinking about doing the biopsy now to help me figure out where to go with the contract. (switching mare or stallion as SO said I could do either).

I think I will take the advice of some of you who know more than me and hold off on the live cover and continue with the fresh via AI.

[Equine_Reproduction]

@everafterfarm;5683128

Nope, my vet has never said anything about checking them after the insemination. Just sticks it in and sends her home. I wish I was closer to a real repro expert! I am thinking I may try another vet who is farther away, but I have heard he has had luck with difficult mares.

AS has been noted above, the mare “should” be checked to insure that she has indeed ovulated as well as to be sure she isn’t pooling any fluid. Sometimes the best money you can spend is by hauling her to someone that is well versed in dealing with equine reproduction.

Can I biopsy now? I am not going to try her again this year, but I do need to make some decisions on this contract so I was thinking about doing the biopsy now to help me figure out where to go with the contract. (switching mare or stallion as SO said I could do either).

Biopsy now. It may be that the mare just isn’t going to hold a pregnancy and better to know that before pouring more money into her.

I think I will take the advice of some of you who know more than me and hold off on the live cover and continue with the fresh via AI.

I would. Live cover, as Hillside said, would be WAY down on my list. FWIW, we just confirmed a pregnancy on a little gypsy vanner mare that the owner had tried breeding repeatedly live cover with no success. The mare had a little bit of fluid issues and had, on the previous cycle, developed an anovulatory hemorhaggic follicle - something that wouldn’t be picked up on if no follow up ultrasound was done.

Good luck! I know it shouldn’t have to be this difficult :P.

[TrinitySporthorses]

Occassionally, a certain stallion’s semen will not “match” with the mare (I don’t know all the scientific details but it is a real chemical reaction). This semen will look fine and work on other mares, your mare would appear healthy in all ways, they just wouldn’t be capable of producing something together.
Now, mind you, this is uncommon so I would try all the other things mentioned above but I just wanted to make you aware of one more possibility. Trying a different stallion could be all it would take…

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

Not checking post-insemination is a HUGE red-flag! You have no idea if the mares are ovulating in a timely fashion, whether they are having issues for fluid, etc. There is no way I would think live-cover is the answer until I had followed these mares through a cycle, which includes verifying ovulation and checking for fluid. But I would still reccomend a biopsy, as well.

[rodawn]

Agreed with Kathy and also Hillside Ranch. Do a biopsy. Just because she’s young doesn’t mean her last pregnancy didn’t cause some uterine damage and scarring.

Some mares go into flaming heat and then pop out, but end up not actually ovulating. If this is happening on a regular basis, this needs to be investigated.

I would ensure your vet is doing a controlled hormone manipulation using the protocols outlined on EquineReproduction.com to bring her into heat (and hopefully ovulate) with accurate timing of insemination just hours before anticipated ovulation. As Kathy and Hllside clearly noted, it is SO worth it to do a post insemination ultrasound - if anything to ensure she actually did ovulate and a CL is forming. If there is no CL, a pregnancy cannot be maintained. Also, as Kathy & Hillside noted, a post-insemination ultrasound checks for fluid.

One thing to consider… some mares split their heat, meaning they ovulate, for example, on the left side, then 3 or so days later ovulate on the right side. You’ll need to get a second dose of semen a few hours prior to the second ovulation, because that’s the one you’ll get a pregnancy from, not the first ovulation.

A post insemination ultrasound catches all of these things and any repro vet worth his/her salt KNOWS and PRACTICES this gold standard.

In addition to your biopsy, I would get some basic blood work done, specifically check thyroid levels. While it is RARE for a young mare to have a thyroid problem, it is not unheard of, and quite often a thyroid can go wonky after a previous pregnancy/delivery. Thyroid is tricky - it can be a problem with the thyroid not producing hormone, or there could be nothing wrong with the thyroid gland, itself, but rather a problem with the pituitary gland not stimulating the thyroid. Either way, treatment with thyroid replacement hormone is required, because a lack of thyroid hormone wreaks havoc on the ovaries… amongst other things.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Not checking post breeding, and recommending live cover are two very serious symptoms of a vet that is not good at equine reproduction. Breeding success is directly related to good repro experience more than any other factor. Far cheaper to send the mare a bit farther away, and get it done right first time.

[acottongim]

I’m in the area and just sent you a PM with some vet info etc. Good luck!!! Hope it helps!

[everafterfarm]

I want to thank you all for the helpful suggestions so far! ( I was hoping Kathy would chime in!)

I will be scheduling a biopsy tomorrow and start with that. I will also ask about checking her thyroid. A blood panel at my vets is fairly cheap so why not!

In any case I am feeling a bit better as well. I was really upset when she did not take this last time. I am also so grateful that I am dealing with a wonderful SM too!

[mbm]

why are folks so against live cover? in the pony world it is done all the time and seems to result in many healthy and happy foals?

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=mbm;5685702]
why are folks so against live cover? in the pony world it is done all the time and seems to result in many healthy and happy foals?[/QUOTE]

I’m not against live cover (although it isn’t my preference due to the inherent risks) but in this case it doesn’t sound like it is neccessarily the solution. There are other issues that should be dealt with first in this case, before resorting to live cover.

[everafterfarm]

Guess what all!! I just found out my freaking vet does not even have whatever it is he needs to do a biopsy! Awesome! Well that explains a lot to me about why they thought I should just try to live cover!

I have a call in to another vet that’s a bit farther away, but has more “stuff” to see if he can do it. I have a little time since my mare isn’t likely to be back in heat for at least a week.

Um, this info would have been more useful to me several weeks ago when my vet mentioned we would need to do a biopsy if she didn’t take this time!!! I think he might be fired from breeding my horses!! Oh, did I mention it took me 2 days to get this wonderful bit of info from his office(not including the weekend of course)! Ok, I’m obviously a bit peeved at the moment so this is turning into a bit of a rant. Sorry.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=mbm;5685702]
why are folks so against live cover? in the pony world it is done all the time and seems to result in many healthy and happy foals?[/QUOTE]

I am not against live cover - both my boys are available to live cover, but it is always safer, especially for stallions to collect and inseminate. That is why many SOs do not offer live cover.

[everafterfarm]

Ok, got her biopsyed today! Now we wait for results! I did take her to a new vet. He saw that she ovulated 3 days ago! Ok, that means she ovulated on Sun/Mon, right. Well when she was there on Friday why did my vet say she had " a couple little folicles that weren’t doing much"!

I think I will be using this new vet for my repro. He had 3 other mares sent to him this year that were being “difficult” and all 3 are preggers. Plus his facility is soooo very nice! He’s an hour farther than my reg vet, but really that’s a small price to pay if he is better at repro! I’ll let everyone know how it turns out.