Recommedations for a first time breeder in stallion choosing

[msquaredEQ]

Hi all!
I am looking for some seasoned advice and input from some more experienced breeders who have much more expertise in choosing stallions than I have. It is a bit overwhelming!
I am an upper level dressage rider, and I have a lovely KWPN mare who I would like to breed. She is out of an Elite Lector mare, and UB-40 - who is now Keur. So, fantastic bloodlines and an incredibly decorated damline. I have not taken her to her adult inspection yet, (she was taken as a baby and was first premium) but hope for her to have her sport predicate in the next two or so years - depending when I breed OR if I choose ET.
She wasn’t started under saddle until I got my hands on her until last year due to her original owner, but is otherwise coming along fantastically. She scored in the 70’s at her first go at training level in recognized shows last year, and I hope to have repeat success this year at second level.
Some of her strengths is she has an active and quick hind leg, she has fairly good scope in her step and reach in her shoulder. She is fairly loose and supple in her body and does work through it quite well.She also has an incredible work ethic once she understands the rider and her job. These are all things I want to continue with baby!
Her weaknesses - she is a bit of a hot head and incredibly sensitive, although trainable, she is not one to shout “yes ma’am” and requires a very tactful, quiet and empathetic rider. She is very “cold-backed” and can be a bit explosive if not warmed up slowly with accordance to her “quirks.” This is something as a rider, I am willing to overlook because of her talent, but as a breeder, I definitely want to improve. She is also on the smaller side just creeping in at 15’3. Overall, confirmation wise, she is quite lovely and correct. I guess the one thing I want to be careful of with stallion’s confirmation is shorter pasterns since hers a bit on the shorter side.
I am breeding this baby with hopes for another Grand Prix competitor for myself, but if that doesn’t work out, I would like to choose a stallion who has high ridability to improve in my mare and make someone else a fantastic mount. Here is my list of my top contenders for stallions - choosing both size, ridability and breeding that (I hope?) will likely create a Grand Prix horse.
-Secret
-Everdale
-Gaudi
-Springbank II VH

I am OKAY with going outside the KWPN realm and doing the registery A or B - but again, its an overwhelming decision so narrowing DOWN my list will be most important at this time

I look forward to some input or insights!

[clint]

I’m assuming you are in the US? I have bred for many years using both fresh and frozen semen. Yet again last year, I was reminded the hard way that it is more cost effective to breed maidens using fresh semen. All but one of your choices are frozen semen, albeit Everdale is through Hilltop.

[msquaredEQ]

Thanks, Clint. You bring up a good point I was wondering about as well. My vet seems fairly confident in her skills and tells me it will be fine to try to use frozen - but - based on what I understand, that definitely might not be the most cost-effective route on a maiden mare. Since I do like riding and competing this mare, this might be the one and only foal I do with her - so I’m left trying to weigh that idea with a special stallion as well.

[clint]

It isn’t only vet skill, although that is very important. I bred two maidens this year with frozen semen. One mare got in foal first try, and lost the foal at six months due to umbilical torsion. No recourse, just out the frozen and cycle, which amount to a fair chunk of change. The second mare didn’t get in foal on two tries with frozen, and round three I bought a fresh breeding which got her in foal. Expensive reminder lesson for me. There is no history with maidens so even though they look like prime time to do it, there are unknowns. I prefer using frozen, not only because I like those choices, but also because it is less frantic breeding and I have recourse to very good repro vets, but I won’t be doing that again with an unknown mare.

[Edre]

Is your mare tested for WFFS? At least two of the stallions above are carriers so you should make certain your mare isn’t as well if you end up breeding to those stallions.

[msquaredEQ]

Yes - negative

[Majestic_Gaits]

For frozen, I’d recommend Uphill. Super character and ridability. But, I think you would really like Schroeder on her. He needs a smaller mare as he adds height but also superior character. He is showing Grand Prix too with lots of good talent. Throws a super topline, leggy and pretty types. He produces KWPN FB foals too.

[SusanO]

Have you talked to Iron Springs Farm? They own UB40 and have bred him to a bunch of their mares. I am sure they will tell you what crosses worked best. They probably are familiar with your mare’s dam line too. She sounds like a lovely mare. I had a friend with a really lovely UB40 gelding ( out of a Martini mare). He had movement to die for and had an easy-going temperament.

[clint]

UB40 died this year, although they may have frozen semen. Iron Spring has some very nice stallions.

[SusanO]

No - her mare is by UB40. I am sure Iron Springs Farm has retained some of his daughters. It would be interesting to see what stallions they bred those to and what crosses worked.

[Dressagelvr]

If you’re looking for a GP prospect and an excellent brain, I’m not sure there’s a better stallion than Don Principe.

[Hej]

There are also a couple of Dressage Breeders Facebook pages with many members and a terrific wealth of knowledge.

If you post there exactly what you did here you’ll get a lot of good information to consider.

[J-Lu]

@dressurlover

With German lines, Donnerhall and Rubinstein are the classic go to for rideabilty. I hear good things about ‘B’ line.
I’d recommending speaking with Jennifer Arnold and looking into the stallions she stands at DreamscapeFarm.com. She is importing Blu Hors Hotline and Blu Hors Rockefeller for 2019!
My coming 3 year old is by Diamond Stud (who is passed away but still available frozen.) and a smart, friendly, teddy bear sort of a horse who loves people. Her mom, my first home bred, took on the first try as 16 year old maiden mare with fresh cooled.
Jennifer has several other stallions and temperament is always a priority for what she stands. She was wonderful to work with and very candid and honest about strengths and weaknesses of her boys. Definitely worth looking into, especially since you can get most of them fresh.

The stallions you listed aren’t old enough to have FEI aged offspring, so it’s hard to know if they will pass on a temperament to handle the training needed to get to grand prix. Try and find someone who has worked with babies of your favorite and see if they recommend crossing with a hotter mare.

For a maiden, I’d recommend fresh or if you go the frozen route, see if you can find a stallion offered with a breeding contract offering at least a 2 yr. live foal guarantee.

I agree with going fresh for a maiden mare, and a live foal guarantee. Ask me how I know!

I own a Dreamscape farm bred horse, who apparently is an outlier in temperament (they bred a bunch of his full siblings, one they retained as a stallion). Jennifer was a bit offended when I inquired about his temperament. She was not helpful as she called me “passive-aggressive” to another friend (who started this horse (experienced his difficulty and was bucked off) and whose half-sib won the 70 day stallion test) for asking if other offspring had my offspring’s super-spooky temperament and if he might be proud cut/she had advice about these offspring. She has nice horses, I was not particularly impressed with her customer service nor her grasp of genetics/statistics. She seemed offended that my horse was/is difficult.

[Anne]

You can contact the KWPN in the Netherlands, and for a nominal fee they will have one of their inspectors review your mare’s pedigree and give you breeding advice based on your goals. I have a jumper mare but found this very helpful; they are familiar both with what fresh stallions we have in the USA and what stallions we can obtain frozen. They are also more familiar with how a mare of that pedigree will produce (which can be very different from how it performs) because of their experience on the ground in Europe and their access to the KWPN database.

[kwpncan]

I just imported two proven KWPN stallions. Wynton (Jazz x Matador II) a keur Grand Prix stallion and Zhivago (Krack C x Jazz) competed to Inter I with a youth rider. Zhivago will improve rideability for sure

[vali]

I have a 6 year old Devon Heir mare that I bred and I adore. He consistently throws uphill pretty horses with good brains. Her dam was a lovely mover but a bit hot and reactive, and he added height, a better neck, and an excellent attitude about everything. He’s available fresh cooled in CA and our mare took on the first try.

[RunningwaterWBs]

My advice is to get all of the recommendations you can. Read all you can. Talk to breeders you respect. Ask stallion owners as well as mare owners. Narrow your list to 3 or 4 stallions, then go with your gut. You know your mare best.

[Sonesta]

@Dressagelvr

If you’re looking for a GP prospect and an excellent brain, I’m not sure there’s a better stallion than Don Principe.

This might be an excellent choice for your mare!

[SnicklefritzG]

Where is he standing these days? There used to be a couple of the MF stallions offered through Hilltop but I don’t see any of them there now.

@Dressagelvr

If you’re looking for a GP prospect and an excellent brain, I’m not sure there’s a better stallion than Don Principe.

[clint]

I don’t know where Don Principe went; I have been wondering myself. Maryanna’s other stallion went to High Point Hanoverians.