Red Lake Earth as preventative to sand colic?

[AnnaMM]

Hi- has anyone used Red Lake Earth (food grade diotomaceous earth mixed with bentonite clay) as an alternative to psyllium (i.e. sand clear or metamusil) to guard against sand colic? This product (see website link below) was recently recommended by a horse trainer I know, as it is much less costly than ‘sand clear’, but I see no one mentioning its use for this purpose, either on the product website, or here at COTH, or in other forums. Would be curious to hear about anyone’s experience with it http://www.redlakeearth.com/

[JB]

There’s nothing about DE or bentonite clay that’s going to do what psyllium and flax do, which is get gooey and trap sand and other similar particles and help move them out. It’s not even going to do what hay and grass do, which is help move sand out.

Generic metamucil is lots cheaper than Sand Clear.

[Ghazzu]

What putative mechanism are they proposing for this ability to prevent sand colic?
I can’t think of any reason DE would do that

[csaper58]

First, test the horse’s manure to see if you even need to treat for sand.

I believe the latest research indicates the best way to clear sand from the gut is to…

1. lunge the horse at a gentle trot every day after it has eaten it’s hay ration (1.5% to 3% of it’s body weight).

2. eliminate the consumption of sand.

[JB]

Why lunging, as opposed to riding? Is there a link to a study which says lunging is better for this than riding? I’ve never heard this

“after it has eaten its hay ration of 1.5-3% body weight” - I don’t understand. Isn’t that any given minute, since theoretically he’d have eaten that in any given previous 24 hours?

Eliminating sand consumption is obvious However, it’s not always feasible, unless the horse is never eating any forage that is anywhere near sand, and for horses living in desert and coastal areas, that’s all but impossible unless he’s locked in a stall or small pen with mats everywhere. There are definitely things that can be done to reduce sand intake though.

[findeight]

At least they do have links to scientific studies…on swine, poultry and bovines…where it’s a feed additive. Lots of things added to pig, chicken and cow feeds including those to retard clumping and add bulk in the feed itself in the silo or bag, doesn’t mean it’s actually good for the animal even if it won’t kill them. Plus these are animals that are not going to live long enough to provide long term effectiveness studies.

Horses don’t chew a cud like bovines, have a digestive system that can handle anything like swine and they sure aren’t chickens so conclusions based on these other species, one not even a mammal, may not prove effectiveness when fed to horses to effect gut actions.

I am familiar with DE because one of my chores waaay back in high school and college was to tend to our swimming pool filter- which cycled the water through DE to remove impurities. It was messy but worked however I wouldn’t connect the dots between that and increasing gut motility in horses.

[csaper58]

@JB

Why lunging, as opposed to riding? Is there a link to a study which says lunging is better for this than riding? I’ve never heard this

“after it has eaten its hay ration of 1.5-3% body weight” - I don’t understand. Isn’t that any given minute, since theoretically he’d have eaten that in any given previous 24 hours?

Eliminating sand consumption is obvious However, it’s not always feasible, unless the horse is never eating any forage that is anywhere near sand, and for horses living in desert and coastal areas, that’s all but impossible unless he’s locked in a stall or small pen with mats everywhere. There are definitely things that can be done to reduce sand intake though.

My info was per instructions from the vet school internal medicine specialist last time we hospitalized a horse with sand (in 2013).

Lunging instead of riding because a tight girth led to abdominal discomfort and disobedience under saddle. They wanted a quiet jog trot for 10-20 minutes so lunging was best.

Reducing/eliminating sand consumption is not as difficult as you are trying to make it seem :rolleyes:. Proper stable management will take care of it in most instances.

The vet said most horses with sand colic eat too little hay and stand around too many hours in their stalls thus allowing any sand consumed to settle out of the gut contents and form an irritating sediment layer in the gut.

The vet was adamant that psyllium was of little use in moving or clearing the sediment once it formed.

@AnnaMM You might call the nearest vet school and ask to speak to an equine internal medicine specialist, that would give you the best answer to your question. The vets at our nearest vet school are happy to answer questions and there is no fee.

Good Luck.

[JB]

@csaper58

My info was per instructions from the vet school internal medicine specialist last time we hospitalized a horse with sand (in 2013).

Thanks. That’s different from “latest research” so I was just wondering, as I found no research on this particular item.

Lunging instead of riding because a tight girth led to abdominal discomfort and disobedience under saddle. They wanted a quiet jog trot for 10-20 minutes so lunging was best.

If vets think that a girth properly adjusted leads to “abdominal discomfort and disobedience under saddle” they need to do more work in that field, because that is clearly not the case, as attested to by 100s of 1000s of horses who are perfectly obedient and happy under saddle. If a girth is causing disobedience, that’s a girth issue, not a riding vs lunging issue.

What was the goal of 20 minutes of trotting on the lunge? Even 10 minutes is a LOT of trotting on a circle, especially since most horses are not lunged regularly.

Reducing/eliminating sand consumption is not as difficult as you are trying to make it seem :rolleyes:. Proper stable management will take care of it in most instances.

You said “eliminate the consumption of sand” Not reduce. Eliminate. I was pointing out that eliminating sand intake is a daily struggle for people in places like Florida where sand is EVERYwhere, and in places like Phoenix and surrounding areas where the “mare motels” are often 12x24 pens, half covered and with mats, and half whatever the ground is, which is sand. Yes, you can put hay in all sorts of feeder and nets and sweep and try to keep it all in the matted areas, but horses are horses and they grab hay and scatter it and eat it off the ground. It’s a struggle for owners in those situations, and there’s lots of use of Sand Clear and Metamucil to try to keep the horses happy. That is all I’m pointing out, the reality.

The vet said most horses with sand colic eat too little hay and stand around too many hours in their stalls thus allowing any sand consumed to settle out of the gut contents and form an irritating sediment layer in the gut.

The vet was adamant that psyllium was of little use in moving or clearing the sediment once it formed.

I agree that once things are an issue, psyllium alone has not shown to be very effective. However, psyllium with either magnesium sulfate or mineral oil has value with fairly large sand accumulations. Obviously a vet needs to be involved to tube the additives, but it’s a way to get larger amounts out.

But there is at least some value in using psyllium, or flax, or chia seeds, to help prevent things from getting to that point. And of course, the best thing is forage, that’s also proven.

[JB]

@findeight

At least they do have links to scientific studies…on swine, poultry and bovines…where it’s a feed additive. Lots of things added to pig, chicken and cow feeds including those to retard clumping and add bulk in the feed itself in the silo or bag, doesn’t mean it’s actually good for the animal even if it won’t kill them. Plus these are animals that are not going to live long enough to provide long term effectiveness studies.

Horses don’t chew a cud like bovines, have a digestive system that can handle anything like swine and they sure aren’t chickens so conclusions based on these other species, one not even a mammal, may not prove effectiveness when fed to horses to effect gut actions.

It’s a bit terrifying when people extrapolate from one species to another :no: Some things are valid. Many are not. And especially when it comes to the difference being in how the species digest things - ruminants vs not - it’s pretty inappropriate and dangerous.

I am familiar with DE because one of my chores waaay back in high school and college was to tend to our swimming pool filter- which cycled the water through DE to remove impurities. It was messy but worked however I wouldn’t connect the dots between that and increasing gut motility in horses.

That DE is absolutely not suitable to feed. That is industrial grade DE. There is food-grade DE which can be ingested. You wouldn’t even use the industrial stuff for topical pest control applications, since that can still be ingested.

But no, you’re right, there is absolutely nothing about DE that has any positive effect on gut motility in horses.

No deworming properties, colic control, no breeding cleanliness, nothing other than as an anti-caking agent.

[csaper58]

@JB

Thanks. That’s different from “latest research” so I was just wondering, as I found no research on this particular item.
the vet said that what she was telling us was the result of the latest research so no not different at all.

If vets think that a girth properly adjusted leads to “abdominal discomfort and disobedience under saddle” they need to do more work in that field, because that is clearly not the case, as attested to by 100s of 1000s of horses who are perfectly obedient and happy under saddle. If a girth is causing disobedience, that’s a girth issue, not a riding vs lunging issue.
I have every confidence that a licensed vet who is a degreeded specialist in her field knows more than an internet jockey.

What was the goal of 20 minutes of trotting on the lunge? Even 10 minutes is a LOT of trotting on a circle, especially since most horses are not lunged regularly.
I have every confidence in the reco of a licensed vet, who has had hands on the horse. Much less in an internet jockey

You said “eliminate the consumption of sand” Not reduce. Eliminate. I was pointing out that eliminating sand intake is a daily struggle for people in places like Florida where sand is EVERYwhere, and in places like Phoenix and surrounding areas where the “mare motels” are often 12x24 pens, half covered and with mats, and half whatever the ground is, which is sand. Yes, you can put hay in all sorts of feeder and nets and sweep and try to keep it all in the matted areas, but horses are horses and they grab hay and scatter it and eat it off the ground. It’s a struggle for owners in those situations, and there’s lots of use of Sand Clear and Metamucil to try to keep the horses happy. That is all I’m pointing out, the reality.
your need to be ‘exact’, ‘right’ and to be ‘an expert’ is overwhelming any assistance you are providing.

I agree that once things are an issue, psyllium alone has not shown to be very effective. However, psyllium with either magnesium sulfate or mineral oil has value with fairly large sand accumulations. Obviously a vet needs to be involved to tube the additives, but it’s a way to get larger amounts out.
Mineral oil and Epsom Salts are often used alone with similar results.

But there is at least some value in using psyllium, or flax, or chia seeds, to help prevent things from getting to that point. And of course, the best thing is forage, that’s also proven.
The value is they make the coat shine, but do not do anything to eliminate ‘sand’ in the horse’s gut. To do that you would need to feed pounds of psyllium, flax, or chia and that would cause other issues

Bold is mine.

[JB]

@csaper58

the vet said that what she was telling us was the result of the latest research so no not different at all.

You said research. I just asked “what research since there’s nothing online that I can find”. A vet deciding something based on what they see is not actual research, it’s personal experience. All experience is valid. It doesn’t mean it applies to all, or even most situations.

All you had to do was say “my vet said…because…” Not just “the latest research”. If someone says there’s research, I’m interested in reading up on it. It’s how people learn. I’ll look harder.

I have every confidence that a licensed vet who is a degreeded specialist in her field knows more than an internet jockey.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Either you didn’t interpret what the vet said correctly (and if so, should have had serious questions about the validity of what you thought you heard), or there’s a WHOLE LOT more to that comment and specific scenario for that particular horse and nobody here can read your mind, or the vet hasn’t a clue about riding horses. Not all vets even ride, so I’ll give them that. Please tell me you don’t honestly think that comment as you wrote it is valid.

your need to be ‘exact’, ‘right’ and to be ‘an expert’ is overwhelming any assistance you are providing.

No. You stated something obvious - “eliminate sand”. I was commenting that it’s not always possible without major sacrifices. Clearly, if we could all do as you originally stated, Sand Clear would not be a product anymore.

Mineral oil and Epsom Salts are often used alone with similar results.

I haven’t found anything on their standalone use. I’d love to see if it you have a link. That is NOT an argument with you, it is for my education.

[csaper58]

@JB

You said research. I just asked “what research since there’s nothing online that I can find”. A vet deciding something based on what they see is not actual research, it’s personal experience. All experience is valid. It doesn’t mean it applies to all, or even most situations.
Perhaps you are not able to find everything there is

All you had to do was say “my vet said…because…” Not just “the latest research”. If someone says there’s research, I’m interested in reading up on it. It’s how people learn. I’ll look harder.
Go for it

:lol: :lol: :lol: Either you didn’t interpret what the vet said correctly (and if so, should have had serious questions about the validity of what you thought you heard), or there’s a WHOLE LOT more to that comment and specific scenario for that particular horse and nobody here can read your mind, or the vet hasn’t a clue about riding horses. Not all vets even ride, so I’ll give them that. Please tell me you don’t honestly think that comment as you wrote it is valid.
I had a quite satisfactory conversation with a respected vet, in person, with the horse standing next to us. There is a whole lot you need to learn about making grandiose assumptions based on a personal need to feel superior.

No. You stated something obvious - “eliminate sand”. I was commenting that it’s not always possible without major sacrifices. Clearly, if we could all do as you originally stated, Sand Clear would not be a product anymore.
You really need to feel ‘right’ don’t you? :rolleyes:

I haven’t found anything on their standalone use. I’d love to see if it you have a link. That is NOT an argument with you, it is for my education.
Your further education is not my job. But if it was I would tell you to try consulting actual working vets, not just your computer and beloved National Center for Biotechnology Information :rolleyes:

Why do you hold your stunted, web-formed, opinions in such high regard?

[JB]

sigh

Why do you take such exception when I ask for some reference to said “research” so that I can get the education you so clearly think I need? I ASKED because I have not heard of the things you reference. I ASKED because I searched and couldn’t find things. I ENJOY research. I ALSO consult with my vet on a great many things and yes, she actually does ride and compete and has for decades.

You make broad sweeping statements and then get upset with me because I want to know more, to get clarification, and to point out that such broad sweeping statements are not valid so that others may also learn. I have never invalidated your experiences, as much as you try to make it seem that way. I try to get clarification, and yes, when you make incorrect statements, I will correct you. Likewise, I expect to be corrected if I make incorrect statements.

It is ODD for a vet to state that, as you worded it, girths are tight and make for abdominal pain and disobedience under saddle, as a reason to lunge instead of ride, and as stated of course that’s going to cause a reaction of “what?” I asked for clarification, you bring an argument.

You lashed out at me when I asked - for my own reference - about research showing lunging is better than riding for whatever it is about sand elimination, because never in 40 years have I heard of that, so I wanted to know more.

[csaper58]

@JB

sigh

Why do you take such exception when I ask for some reference to said “research” so that I can get the education you so clearly think I need? I ASKED because I have not heard of the things you reference. I ASKED because I searched and couldn’t find things. I ENJOY research. I ALSO consult with my vet on a great many things and yes, she actually does ride and compete and has for decades.
you don’t ask for referrences you demand that everyone else prove to you that their points are valid.

You make broad sweeping statements and then get upset with me because I want to know more, to get clarification, and to point out that such broad sweeping statements are not valid so that others may also learn. I have never invalidated your experiences, as much as you try to make it seem that way. I try to get clarification, and yes, when you make incorrect statements, I will correct you (ie correcting your statement that TC 30 is fed at 1lb/500lb just like TC Lite). Likewise, I expect to be corrected if I make incorrect statements.
You make broad sweeping assumptions then demand others prove to you, you are not correct. Were the hell did I say anything about TC 30???

It is ODD for a vet to state that, as you worded it, girths are tight and make for abdominal pain and disobedience under saddle, as a reason to lunge instead of ride, and as stated of course that’s going to cause a reaction of “what?” I asked for clarification, you bring an argument.
It is odd to you. Mostly, because you are making broad sweeping assumptions based on your broad sweeping assumption of the infallibility of your research…

You lashed out at me when I asked - for my own reference - about research showing lunging is better than riding for whatever it is about sand elimination, because never in 40 years have I heard of that, so I wanted to know more.
Your questions come from a place of assuming you are correct in everything you say and think.

You really like to talk about you… sigh, yawn,

[AnnaMM]

Well, this discussion has kind of devolved… I am sorry, JB and csaper58, that you are having communication problems. Word of friendly advice: be generous in your thoughts toward each other.
I appreciate everyone’s generosity in sharing opinions/thoughts/questions about the red lake earth product- you all brought up several valuable points and suggestions. Thank you!

[JB]

@csaper58 I apologize for the TC Lite comment That was my mistake, and I’ve corrected my post on that.

[csaper58]

@JB

@csaper58 I apologize for the TC Lite comment That was my mistake, and I’ve corrected my post on that.

No, you just tried to make it seem like you did not make a mistake by editing your post… Luckily I quoted your original post.

What’s with the change of avatar? Reinventing yourself?

[csaper58]

@AnnaMM

Well, this discussion has kind of devolved… I am sorry, JB and csaper58, that you are having communication problems. Word of friendly advice: be generous in your thoughts toward each other.
I appreciate everyone’s generosity in sharing opinions/thoughts/questions about the red lake earth product- you all brought up several valuable points and suggestions. Thank you!

Sorry this has hijacked your thread, are you going to try the Red Lake Earth?

Was your horse ever showing symptoms of sand colic?

My concerns would be…

1. Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth: although the particles are tiny they are sharp. I know some folks feed it, but I would worry it could be irritating.

2 Clay: is very binding. If fed in quantities it could contribute to the ‘sand’ issue rather than resolve it.

Good Luck

[keysfins]

@AnnaMM

Well, this discussion has kind of devolved… I am sorry, JB and csaper58, that you are having communication problems. Word of friendly advice: be generous in your thoughts toward each other.
I appreciate everyone’s generosity in sharing opinions/thoughts/questions about the red lake earth product- you all brought up several valuable points and suggestions. Thank you!

@AnnaMM, you are very gracious. Thank you for your calming tone.

[JB]

@csaper58

No, you just tried to make it seem like you did not make a mistake by editing your post… Luckily I quoted your original post.

Really? My edit comment was that I made a mistake, and I OWNED that mistake by replying to your comment on it. You could’t simply accept an apology?