Reevaluating my feed situation

[KsOTTBs]

Now that I’ve graduated and my geldings are (mostly) off my parents’ payroll and I’m able to make some different decision for them, I’ve been doing quite a bit of research looking at alternatives to our current feeding situation. I keep them at home and can change anything. There’s nothing wrong with it per say, I just think I could do better and would love some opinions. They are 12 and 4 and both OTTBs, but built completely differently. Both 16.3-17 hands but the 12 year old is built big- even when he drops weight and his ribs show up, he’s wide. He’s out 24/7 on decent pasture, free choice hay, and just enough grain to mix with his electrolytes which have seemed to alleviate his seasonal colic (knock on wood). I’m thinking he needs a multi vitamin to balance out the fact he doesn’t get much grain and have been looking at a probiotic as well. Probably need to get my soil tested and see what he may be missing.

The younger guy is super narrow and I’ve had the hardest time putting weight on him. He was skinny and wormy when I got him in March, he looked good in May-June, but then when the July heat set in he went back to being way too skinny. He’s out 24/7 as well, free choice hay, and on 4ish lbs a day of SafeChoice and won’t eat any more than that. I’ve thought about switching to a senior feed, but I’m leaning away from adding more grain after he just got out of the hospital this week following a nasty displacement colic due to gas. He’s got crappy thoroughbred feet and is about to get a hoof supplement. Which brings me to my questions…

1. Switching them both to straight beet pulp, rice bran, vitamin/mineral, and supplements- yay or nay? Seems cheaper, safer, and more effective than just upping grain, and the young guy won’t eat beet pulp in addition to his grain. I know it’s probably no big deal, but I just don’t love filling them with soy and corn either. Any of this scream colic risk? They both seem to be at-risk already, so I don’t want to increase it at all.

2. Favorite-
   hoof supplement:
   Multi vitamin:
   Pro/prebiotic:
   anything else?

If you read this far- thank you, you deserve a cookie

[4LeafCloverFarm]

What “grain” are you giving the 12yr old? Which Nutena SafeChoice is the 4yr old getting (there are so many choices, each one geared for a different thing).

Since both live outside 24/7, do they have free choice mineral block and salt block in their run-in shed/shelter?

Are they in the same pasture or each have their own?

What hay are you feeding free-choice?

[Obsidian_Fire]

I personally feel anything you soak - like beet pulp - helps to reduce colic risk as it gets liquid in them. Or, you could just use alfalfa pellets, if you’re not feeding alfalfa hay.

Beyond that… I feed Triple Crown Senior, soaked. For a V/M supp, I like Uckele’s Equi-VM. (Because I don’t feed enough senior to meet all the VM needs). I also like Diamond V yeast or Yea-Sacc (which can be ordered online and is fairly inexpensive).

If you have great pasture that should help their feet, I know when ours kicks in everyone’s feet start growing like mad.

Your young guy, I would have on alfalfa for sure, especially needing to gain weight.

Just my 2 cents.

[KsOTTBs]

@4LeafCloverFarm

What “grain” are you giving the 12yr old? Which Nutena SafeChoice is the 4yr old getting (there are so many choices, each one geared for a different thing).

Since both live outside 24/7, do they have free choice mineral block and salt block in their run-in shed/shelter?

Are they in the same pasture or each have their own?

What hay are you feeding free-choice?

They both get SafeChoice original. 12 year old gets a bit to cover his electrolytes and 4 year old won’t eat more than 4 lbs a day- half of what he needs to get a full serving.

They do have free choice salt and they are both on electrolytes as well. They share a pasture, it’s mostly Bermuda/Johnson grass. They do great on it in late Spring especially and it meets most of my 12 year olds needs year round. We bale our own hay, it’s the same prairie grass mixture they get in their field.

[KsOTTBs]

@Obsidian Fire

I personally feel anything you soak - like beet pulp - helps to reduce colic risk as it gets liquid in them. Or, you could just use alfalfa pellets, if you’re not feeding alfalfa hay.

Beyond that… I feed Triple Crown Senior, soaked. For a V/M supp, I like Uckele’s Equi-VM. (Because I don’t feed enough senior to meet all the VM needs). I also like Diamond V yeast or Yea-Sacc (which can be ordered online and is fairly inexpensive).

If you have great pasture that should help their feet, I know when ours kicks in everyone’s feet start growing like mad.

Your young guy, I would have on alfalfa for sure, especially needing to gain weight.

Just my 2 cents.

That’s another reason I am leaning toward beet pulp, the moisture content. I’ve never used alfalfa pellets, do you soak them? How much do you feed?

thank you for the V/M recommendations, I will look at those!

[eqsiu]

If you aren’t wanting to feed the younger horse a higher volume of grain, look for one with more calories. The traditional safechoice is around 1450 kcal/lb for reference. I’ve had really good luck using Purina Ultium in the past. It is 1900 kcal/lb. Triple Crown has some higher calorie feeds as well, I just don’t have the numbers memorized! 4 pounds of grain a day is really not that much for a typical TB. I would say most in the eventing barn I was at were getting 6-8 pounds of grain each day (caloric content was about 1500/lb for the each feed the barn stocked). Have you tried treating him for ulcers? Finicky eating is often a symptom so that may be why he won’t eat more grain. Also look at his teeth. Sharp teeth can affect how much a horse wants to eat.

For the older guy I would look at ration balancers as well as supplements.

Farrier’s Formula is my favorite hoof supplement, FWIW. The company’s Barn Bag is also a great general ration balancer type supplement. Though it will be more expensive than others.

ETA: How much Johnson grass is in their pasture? While horses have to eat a lot of healthy Johnson grass to exhibit symptoms of cyanide poisoning, frost and drought stress the grass and make it more poisonous. If possible I would look at eliminating it from the pasture!

[KsOTTBs]

@eqsiu

If you aren’t wanting to feed the younger horse a higher volume of grain, look for one with more calories. The traditional safechoice is around 1450 kcal/lb for reference. I’ve had really good luck using Purina Ultium in the past. It is 1900 kcal/lb. Triple Crown has some higher calorie feeds as well, I just don’t have the numbers memorized! 4 pounds of grain a day is really not that much for a typical TB. I would say most in the eventing barn I was at were getting 6-8 pounds of grain each day (caloric content was about 1500/lb for the each feed the barn stocked). Have you tried treating him for ulcers? Finicky eating is often a symptom so that may be why he won’t eat more grain. Also look at his teeth. Sharp teeth can affect how much a horse wants to eat.

For the older guy I would look at ration balancers as well as supplements.

Farrier’s Formula is my favorite hoof supplement, FWIW. The company’s Barn Bag is also a great general ration balancer type supplement. Though it will be more expensive than others.

ETA: How much Johnson grass is in their pasture? While horses have to eat a lot of healthy Johnson grass to exhibit symptoms of cyanide poisoning, frost and drought stress the grass and make it more poisonous. If possible I would look at eliminating it from the pasture!

We had him checked last week, no ulcers thank goodness! How important is higher calorie vs. higher fat content?

Johnson grass covers the entire 100 acre property and has forever. I had a mild panic attack a few years ago when I learned about the cyanide in it, but we’ve never had any issues and we’ve had horses on it since the early 1900s. They tend to eat the Bermuda and the Johnson grass gets made into hay before it goes to seed.

[eqsiu]

@KsOTTBs

How important is higher calorie vs. higher fat content?

In general higher calorie feeds will have higher fat content, since a gram of fat contains twiceish the calories of carbs or protein. But overall for weight gain you need more calories in, regardless of where they come from. Fat just happens to be the most efficient way to do that.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@KsOTTBs

That’s another reason I am leaning toward beet pulp, the moisture content. I’ve never used alfalfa pellets, do you soak them? How much do you feed?

thank you for the V/M recommendations, I will look at those!

Yes I meant soaking them, same as beet pulp. Feed as much as he’ll eat if you aren’t feeding alfalfa hay.

[Mango20]

For the sake of convenience, I would put both horses on a ration balancer (like Triple Crown 30 or similar). That way, both will get their day’s worth of vitamins and minerals from a small serving. Just the RB for the older guy, then add your choice of extra calories for the one that needs them.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

Nutrena, Purina and Triple Crown all have feeds that are for “high-performance” horses that have more calories and their Senior feeds do as well. I know a lot of people feed Senior feeds to horses who aren’t actually “senior” hoses because they are lower in starch/sugars and typically provide more calories per scoop/pound (many contain beet pulp). Stabilized bran is another way to go to add calories. But since your youngster doesn’t like eating big meals, switching out his feed altogether with higher fat/calories might be best.

Another option for your youngster is to add a mid-day meal, especially heading into winter if he is underweight. Since he objects to eating much volume of food, splitting it into three meals may help. Then there are always fat “supplements” you just use to top dress their food. They are 20% - 40% fat, which can be a great way to get more calories in without adding volume. There are many available - I use Purina Amplify for my senior who is a hard keeper in winter only (he doesn’t get it in summer).

I would add a mineral block to your regular salt block. I offer my horses both - and they lick/chew on whichever they need). Its possible they just aren’t getting enough minerals from your pasture grass or hay. There are a plethora of vitamin/mineral supplements out there, but most modern feeds, fed at the regular daily amount, will cover this. However, if your 12 yr old is just getting a couple of handfuls, a vitamin/mineral supplement would be in order.

For my three boys, I feed 1/2 alfalfa pellets and 1/2 feed at each meal (two get Nutrena SafeChoise Special Care and my senior gets Purina Equine Senior). So they get equal amounts of each. Alfalfa is typically available in many different forms now - pellets, cubes, compressed, or regular bales. I love the compressed “bales” I get at TSC, just break off a chunk and sprinkle it all over my senior’s bermuda hay. Good way to get some extra calories in him and help him produce the energy needed overnight to stay warm (mine live out 24/7).

Any feed can be soaked to make a mash/mush. Some horses love it, some not so much. My senior gets his entire meal soaked as he has some tooth loss. He loves it. I use warm water (verging on hot), as it seems to soak better and more quickly. Plus in winter, it won’t be frozen by the time I get it to him.

I know nothing about Johnson grass. LOL That’s a new one for me. But I’m sure your Ag extension or USDA office near you could test your Johnson hay or tell you where to send it for testing so you know it’s content.

[bt1]

SENTINEL LS you can soak sssssoooo much water into it, has 'biotics etc etc etc

[jawa]

If your one horse just won’t eat the volume he should to get the minimum protein/vitamin/minerals, I would feed a ration balancer top dressed on his regular feed. If he’s getting 1/2 of the minimum lbs of safe choice, add a 1/2 serving of ration balancer. You may find that he gains condition quickly because he is getting everything he needs. Does he eat enough of the hay you provide? If not, you may need to supplement the hay you are using with something that is higher in calorie and entices him to eat a bit more.

Another thought, he may not like the flavor of safe choice. If you have horse friends that feed a different brand, ask if you could buy a partial bag to see if he likes the flavor better.

Will your picky eater eat soaked beet pulp? You could feed a 1lb or so of ration balancer to get his protein v/m in him and add beet pulp. Measure your beet pulp weight as a dry measure. Soak prior to feeding. Mine will only eat the beet pulp with molasses. They won’t look at the beet pulp without.

[Palm_Beach]

I’d bring both of them in during the heat of the day in the summer. It may be why the younger one loses weight in July. I’ve never had much luck leaving tbs out in the summer heat - they fuss so much at the bugs and get sweaty and won’t relax.

And congratulations on your graduation!

[suzyq]

I have a picky OTTB. He likes ultium which is very high calorie so I fed that for a long time. But he still wouldn’t clean up everything. Now I feed a ration balancer, oats, alfalfa pellets, flax. He gobbles this down and is actually getting fatter. My hubby even remarked that he “attacks” his food now. My easier keeper just gets the rb plus some alfalfa pellets. Its a nice easy way to feed. They both get all the pasture/grass hay they will eat. I don’t have access to good quality alfalfa hay.

[lesson_junkie]

My very picky hard keeper will leave concentrate he doesn’t find palatable. It will make a difference to find a feed your horse likes to eat. As good as beet pulp is for them, my guy simply can’t eat enough to add weight-the volume is too great.

When did you last fertilize and lime your pasture? What kind of hay do you feed? My squeaky wheel bad doer will colic on fescue-and coastal would kill him, it’s too fine, so he eats alfalfa or alfalfa blend. He’s ribby unless he eats that, anyway.

I’m assuming you have access to Nutrena feeds, if you can get Safechoice. You might try a bag of Proforce Senior. It’s very similar to TC Senior with a little higher calorie count, I think. It’s a good idea to feed by weight, too, so you know exactly what you’re feeding. I’m going to assume you’ve done all the management stuff-deworm by fecal, dental care, yadda yadda.

It’s frustrating, I know. Two of my horses look like they live at Claiborne, the third looks like he’s been out of the kill pen two weeks. Good luck!

[KsOTTBs]

Thank you all for the responses! I’ve tried him on a couple of different Purina feeds and now the SafeChoice. My baby is fairly eager to come in and eat, just gets bored and won’t eat as much as he needs at one time. Unfortunately I don’t have anyone to feed him a mid-day meal. I may switch to a higher calorie feed and alfalfa pellets for the next little bit and see if we can’t get some weight on him. Poor thing is so gangly and awkward still, I think he’ll mature nicely but right now he’s just a tall and skinny baby. Luckily our grass is still doing alright thanks to all the rain lately, and they both love their hay.

[xeroxchick]

I switched my horse to Copra Cool Stance which is a coconut based feed with a high fat content. I looked at a nice gelding who had basically been bought and put into a string of hunt rental horses, hunting twice a week and after the season he was in great shape on this. My draft mare does really well on it, but have a hard keeper, a tb type QH and it has really been great for him after trying everything. I soak beet pulp, cool stance and alfalfa cubes and add sunny flax. It is not cheap but you only feed a pound or two a day. Depending on their work. My mare was really bitchy when I got her and she was originally on a high protein sweet feed and this has been wonderful for her.
i know people who have gone to only soaked alfalfa cubes and their horses look great and are hunted a lot.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

With more than a few decades under my horse-keeping belt, I’ve seen many interesting changes in the way we approach feeding the critters. Following the advice of my farrier, Pete Ramey, for the past year +, I’m seeing excellent results in weight, coat and foot quality. My three (Hanoverian, OTTB and Haflinger/Welsh Cob geldings) are now dining on:

Cool Stance (copra… not coconut-based, but just plain 100% coconut!) (amount varies by horse)
Timothy hay pellets (amount varies by horse)
Stabilized ground flax (1 cup/day)
California Trace Plus (2-3oz/day, depending on horse weight)
Non-iodized loose white salt (2 tbs/day)
Magnesium oxide (1 tsp/day)

The TB and the Han get free-choice Timothy hay while stalled (never more than 12 hours, and usually considerably less) and the HafxCob gets the same, but through a slow feeder, to avoid explosion.

All graze on about 8 acres of the typical mixed grass pasture common to our area.

The biggest change has been in the TB, who has always previously been a hard-keeper, even on LOTS of high quality, low starch, high fat commercial mixes and oodles of alfalfa. I’ve been wondering for a while if the soy that’s in nearly every commercial feed, as well as all the fillers, preservatives and cardboard-quality roughage products were actually impeding his absorption of nutrients, and the response to this new diet seems to confirm that suspicion. He began looking brighter within days of the switch, and now looks better than he ever has in my nine years of ownership. (During those nine years, he was eating Triple Crown Senior or Complete, flax and alfalfa plus an orchard/alfalfa mix.)

If you’re interested in trying this formula, I’ll warn you that MagOx tastes like poop that’s been rolled in cat pee. Go extremely slow when you introduce it, starting with a teeny-tiny pinch to avoid having your horse decide you’re trying to poison him. We reached the tsp level in about 2.5 weeks.