Refusal/Fall Scenario

Asking questions about something that happens in a public video doesn’t really fit the biblical or metaphorical meaning of casting the first stone.

Jealoushe shows no signs of experiencing the ‘turnabout’ or ‘really suck’ to which you refer - and which you clearly wish upon her.

Some threads ago, you were questioning her right to discuss eventing by asking her what level she rode at. And then you came back with some nonsense about how it made a difference because she might only be jumping crossrails.

Stones? You’re sure casting them at Jealoushe and you have been for a while. If her presence here irks you so much, maybe don’t go on threads she starts and maybe just ignore her posts.

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This post illustrates everything that is wrong with COTH Eventing Forum…bullies, bullies and more bullies. We don’t support each other- truth. The bullies on this forum RULE- they stick together like glue…they have that mean-spirit in common. I have been bullied by Jealoushe on this forum- and I did complain to the forum administrators- and they were like “meh”. So, get used to it. I would love to see COTH forums issue yellow cards on here for the mean comments. (Ain’t gonna happen, I know.) I did reach out to Bad Eventer, as she is a wonderful person and rider…and told her that more people admire her than not and to ignore the anonymous poster on the board named “jealoushe” bc she is simply Jealous of Bad Eventer!

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This.

You do not need to ask a professional. You do not need to ask COTH. All you need to do is search for “fall” in the Eventing rules

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I really do think it’s great that we have so many people who are passionate about safety on this board. But sometimes the armchair quarterbacking in the name of “safety” gets to be too much … especially when the person in question has seemingly already admitted that maybe there were things they should’ve done differently in retrospect.

I think every one of us has had a ride where things didn’t go as planned and we’ve looked back and said, “yeah, I should’ve quit while I was ahead.” And there have also been plenty of riders who were having a cracking round until one big miss landed then in the hospital or worse.

If we want eventing to be safer, making sure riders are qualified and encouraging good decision making will help a little bit, sure. But without changing fence and course design and improving safety equipment, it will remain a sport where one split second mistake can have major consequences, and no matter how much “rider responsibility” gets pushed, it will remain a dangerous sport.

And being critical of an amateur rider with an overall good record who had a bad day will not change that.

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Re: ‘armchair quarterbacking’

Eventing is a deadly sport. The smallest mistake can be fatal for the rider, the horse or both.

To that end, anyone who participates in the sport or demands that their horse participate in the sport would be well-advised to study up on all possible adverse occurrences with the intention of being able to mitigate the negative outcomes wherever possible.

This is not unlike a pilot putting an accident scenario in a flight simulator to learn from the factors and actions that led to an aviation catastrophe or near-catastrophe. Which is what actual pilots do in real life because as pilots, they’re responsible for their own life as well as that of any passengers on their aircraft.

No one calls those pilots ‘armchair quarterbacks’. Actually, you hope that one of them is flying your plane.

So seriously, let’s stop throwing out that rubbish line at people who we don’t like or don’t agree with. Our sport has an unacceptable and outrageous body count both equine and human - and that right there is the reason that members of our community are moved to research and examine misses and near-misses. You might turn up something - a sign, an understanding, a recognition - that leads you to make a different choice when you’re under those same conditions and stresses.

If you don’t like people asking these questions or running through these scenarios publicly, then at least understand where they’re coming from. We’re all trying to make sense of and find safety in a sport that too often shows no forgiveness.

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Aviation is a much different animal from equestrian, though. An aircraft’s performance in response to a certain pilot input or operating condition can be very reliably predicted. A horse much less so.

Accident investigations in aviation aren’t “the pilot should’ve done this” or “the pilot shouldn’t have done that.” They’re a very objective, factual information gathering process in order to reconstruct what led to the crash. Sometimes, it ultimately does come down to “pilot error” but the solution then isn’t “other pilots just need to not make errors,” it’s finding a way to prevent similar errors from being deadly.

Aviation isn’t safe because pilots don’t make mistakes or errors in judgment … i.e. “pilot responsibility,” it’s safe because the process has been developed to reduce or eliminate the impact of human fallibility. Pilots absolutely do make mistakes all the time but there are controls in place that mitigate the impact of those mistakes.

By all means, run hypothetical scenarios and investigate eventing accidents as thoroughly as possible. But I don’t think publicly criticizing amateur riders by name is helpful, unless they did something totally egregious or abusive.

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This is where the entire thread is lost, I never criticized the rider. Not once. I was merely trying to understand when it would be considered a horse fall, if your horse ends up on top of a fence.

Many have answered the question.

Leave me to burn at the stake already.

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The investigations are all of the above. There’s quite a bit of examination of the pilot’s experience, actions and judgment.

If anyone is interested in reading NTSB accident reports, you can binge on them here: NTSB Accident Synopses.

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Yes, they do absolutely look at factors with the pilot him/herself and their experience, and they take statements from those involved, and evaluate how those things may have contributed to the accident. But they don’t ask private pilots from the local flying club what they think the pilot should’ve done, or release speculation on what may have happened before the investigation is complete.

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Your analogy loses the plot here.

Private pilots - and commercial pilots - discuss these things amongst themselves in person, at work and in online forums.

As I said before, this is when they put the conditions into their simulators and see what could have been done differently.

And yes, they speculate. And then the report comes out and they go back to their simulators and discuss further.

Also, investigations do take witness statements. Quite often these are from other pilots In the area at the time and some include speculation and subjective observations.

If anyone does bother to look at one of the NTSB reports - wouldn’t you like to see eventing accident reports like this?

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I wasn’t the one that brought up NTSB reports as an analogy. My whole point is that this kind of Monday morning quarterbacking on social media is nothing like the process in aviation.

Of course if there’s a high-profile incident, or one in the local area, people will talk and speculate as they do. But that will not be part of the NTSB report.

Yes, the NTSB does take witness statements. But those are statements from people who witnessed it firsthand or had a personal connection to the situation. They do not include statements from people who watched a YouTube video of the crash and want to share their 2 cents in the accident report.

I also think there’s a difference between saying to your friend, “I think that guy should’ve done xyz differently” or “I think that rider should’ve pulled up after they had a stop” and posting it out there publicly on social media naming names.

Bottom line, feel free to disagree but I don’t think the way to make eventing safer is by publicly questioning the actions of anyone who has a bad ride.

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Wait, what? ‘A bad ride’?

FWIW, Jealoushe never used words like that to describe the ride she was asking questions about - you know, the ride that you’re calling a ‘bad ride’.

And somehow, you’re on here saying it’s inappropriate to judge others’ rides on this forum?

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At no point did the OP ever say that she thought anybody was a “bad rider.” Some posters took offense to the wording as to how the OP was as well as the follow up questions Jealoushe posed. I took her method as a person who asked a question and then presented her perspective to provide context for us to answer her in a form she needed.

Classic teaching pedagogy.

The irony is that so many posters seemed to think something that was so off the rails as to reality that they judged an amateur who they claimed was judging another amateur. Classic COTH.

The question was asked and answered and the rest was a bunch of misconceptions among those who followed BE and wanted to somehow defend something that needed no defending.

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Oh come on with the semantics. I meant “bad ride” in the sense of “finished on a letter,” in that we all have “bad rides” from time to time, not that the result was due to incompetence or bad decision making on the rider’s part. But I think you probably knew that.

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OP is the equine equivalent of the shrill nasty old lady in the neighborhood who calls the cops on children playing in their own backyard without a parent standing 2 feet away from them "BECAUSE SAFETY’ and then goes double down on the sanctimonious bulls#^^ when she gets called out for it.

As usual.

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Are you serious?! I’ve contributed extensively to Eventing safety. She asked questions that officials and top trainers actually ask (behind close doors) as we try to figure out how and why horses and humans die.

Again, I saw no issues with her valid questions. However, I do find issue with your personal attacks on somebody who wanted to expand their knowledge in the sport (as I like to do too).

I hope you NEVER reach any place of impact in the sport where I might be in a place to ask you questions.

At the AECs in Colorado, they were having the exams for intermediate level course designers. As a few are friends, we all watched the Advanced Division go. I asked many questions of the course designers (some who have done Rolex, some who DESIGNED the AECs, etc). And not one ever accused me of being sanctimonious or attacking riders on course.

I suggest anger management therapy, or maybe a good ride.

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Did you contribute extensively or did the PTB completely refuse your help when you offered it? The story changes depending on the point you’re trying to make and the day you make it.

No anger here. I’m just making the “hard observations”.

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I suggest you look up the Speed Study. USEA membership funded it and it resulted in several course design changes at both the National and FEI levels. I was the Primary Investigator with John Staples as Co-Investigator.

I have been working with the USEA and veterinary schools to develop the next generation speed study.

Not really sure how my story changes.

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THIS. It feels like a personal attack because it’s a fairly easily answered question, and should be by people who are trying to change the sport of eventing to be “safer.” I feel like certain riders are singled out as being “unsafe” while other popular riders who have the same issues get a pass. I don’t have an agenda against a certain poster, but I do think that unless you are uniform you come across as being a bully and brushing off protests as “not caring about safety” isn’t helping.

I don’t think it’s fair to ignore how Bad Eventer felt, and offering an apology even if you had no intent to hurt someone’s feelings goes a long way to making you a better person. With bloggers and live video feeds we have to do better than “get off the horse if you can’t stand the critique” that’s what bullies say. Someone posting a video doesn’t excuse you from being kind.