🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶Mmmmmmm. Mmmmmmm. Mmmmmm.
oops, I thought I’d pop in to see if this room is done. Guess not. I’ll leave you all to it.
🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶🚶
9 Likes
To play Devil’s advocate here…
If the rider/horse pair had then had a rotational fall, following their scrape/crash at the table… this conversation, and the questions asked, would be very different…
Sometimes the end result (such as a win or a finish), skews the public perception of whether the rider’s judgment was good or bad – plenty of instances where those that took a BIG risk and continued on and managed to be okay or even win, were lauded – whereas if they had taken that big and/or stupid risk, and crashed and burned, the public is quick to shake their heads and say “what a dangerous/stupid stunt” as a poor judgment call.
I’m not saying that is the case here… but sometimes asking questions when everyone else is applauding, is insightful. The rider is at the level now where, judgment (or lack thereof) can have fatal consequences.
Of course, easy to quarterback when you’re sitting behind a keyboard too.
These kinds of discussions are never easy and draw a lot of opinions from both sides. I’m thinking, lots of shades of grey here…
7 Likes
The log into the coffin is the type that I was describing that can get triggered with the horse staying on their feet (not true at tables). I think the issue is what it has always been…you have to know yourself and your horse. If you feel your horse loosing confidence or don’t think you can give them a good education…often you pull up. I’ve pulled up on course (at this level) when we were jumping all the jumps but I had some close calls and almost came off. I’ve kicked on in other cases. It just really depends.
I came off once in a coffin similar to what you describe…horse was being super bold before and really taking me to the fences (some I didn’t really want to do but she was being a lion). I saw the more gap distance into the coffin and didn’t wait on my horse (my mistake)…she added (correctly). Hitting her neck as I had climbed up it knocked me out of the tack. I hung on over the ditch (Bold mare) and then came off before the narrow…this was right before the rule change about falls. I landed on my feet, still holding my horse…only time that has EVER happened to me. We were 4 fences from home…I declined to continue. Why…because SHE was good (not me) and there wasn’t a nice way for me to jump that last element and I thought lets just re-group and gave her a lot of treats back home. But that was one decision. In a different situation…I might have gotten back on and finished. I had another horse who stopped Very hard early on (managed to stay on) because I rode like crap (just way too passive)…it kicked me into action to actually riding and we had a fantastic and educational round…horse (and I) came off the course sooooo much better than we started. Again…no real black and white rules…we have to use our horsemanship…and know our horses.
6 Likes
This :yes:
I had a similar thing happen over ten years ago, competing Training – which, is nowhere near the level of some of the things being discussed here, but an example why I think things are more “grey” than black/white. My horse started keen to the fences, but we had a mishap of my own doing at a maxed out (3’11) hedge less than two minutes in, and that shook the confidence from both of us. In hind-sight I should have retired earlier, but the next several fences were soft for the level and I thought it’d put our confidence back. We got going alright, but not so bold as out of the box, lots of overjumping on my horse’s part, and I wasn’t riding my best either. We were three fences from home and there was a coffin complex, maxed out rolltop, to a ditch, then a coop - horse cleared the rolltop with too much room to spare and slammed on the brakes and I landed on my feet facing my horse. JJ asked if I was to continue and I said no and walked my horse home. I knew him well enough to know he had neared the end of his rope in terms of generosity, and that was time for me to call it a day. First thing my trainer asked was, “why didn’t you continue? You were so close to home” but as I learned that day sometimes it’s not so black and white. We both lost some major confidence as a pair, and the last fence on course was similar to our mishap fence… I just did not feel I could give him the ride he needed that day to feel confident in his job. We were fine, after a few schools at home and a proper introduction to how to jump hedges, but I’m glad I didn’t continue; even if from the outside it looked like a good enough ride to trainers and spectators, as riders sometimes we know our horses best.
Sometimes that means riding gritty and sticking with the course, and sometimes that means walking home without hitting the finish line. And sometimes we learn from making mistakes; at the higher levels sometimes the only way to learn is to “do”, as some of the questions are not present at a level below, or difficult to duplicate at home.
I suspect this thread unraveled because of differences in how the initial stop is viewed by the OP versus many of the subsequent posters. Frankly, I watched the helmet cam and had no concerns that this was a horse fall, or ought to have been scored as such. It struck me as a very straightforward refusal, where the impulsion was such that the horse did end up with its front end a little on the fence. No issue with continuing if the rider thought it was in her horse’s capabilities. Clearly the OP genuinely perceived things differently, hence her questions. As a result, I think the OP asked questions that she felt were genuine and for educational purposes, while those that saw the video as I did may have felt the OP’s questions were not genuine, or were intended to cause controversy/criticize the rider given that the stop didn’t strike them as being cause for concern.
While I can certainly understand an amateur, in particular, not enjoying being the subject of such a discussion, I think it would have been difficult to ask the question without the helmet cam video. I don’t know what the answer there is, as I do have a lot of sympathy for the blogger who was dragged into this mess, and I think the increased frequency of live stream access makes this something that could be a reoccurring issue.
Personally, I don’t think a question about PD’s decision to continue with Long Island T would probably have been less controversial. Not because he is a higher profile rider, but because the incident would strike more people as being something worth being concerned about.
4 Likes
Part of my issue is the “why didn’t the rider quit right there” comments. Or the “what if she’d had a rotation after.”
If we sit at home and armchair quarterback every single decision a rider makes on course, and desire new rules that eliminate riders after one stop, do we really still love eventing?
A pro had a glance off right after the water and then finished, and nobody is questioning his decision making skills.
I also see a lot of confusion about what the actual rules are. If we don’t know how frangible pins work, or what a fall is, how can we advocate for massive changes?
6 Likes
I just don’t know. I have been aboard for a training round that was a cluster from the start and we battled back and finished well with more penalties than are allowed in modern day eventing. There after the horse turned into a veritable xc machine and never had another stop in her career.
Conversely I rode around an Intermediate course at the Ky Horse Park where we had issues from the start and I pressed on trying to get things better and both horse and I ended up broken. We were plenty qualified to compete over that course, but we were caught out at a fence that the fence judge reported back that no one in the entire division got over well. This includes 4* riders and future and past Olympians.
I think second guessing is important to do internally and with a coach, but with the advances of social media and more of our lives being spent with devices and computers it can be hard to remember that real people with real feelings are behind the second guessing of onlookers and feeling bad about themselves when judged by others.
I have seen plenty of highest level riders do stupid things on xc, and I have seen plenty of baby novice level riders do stupid things on xc. Go back and watch an episode or two of America’s funniest home videos and you can see that stupidity and poor decision making is not relegated to the horse world alone. But we have to allow a rider and their support staff to have the ability to make the best determinations for themselves.
Spectating is a viable part of sports, but Mid Level eventing is not the NFL. The riders don’t come with a team of doctors, psychologists and team staff that can help them navigate the pitfalls of being in the public eye. It would be great if we could remember that there’s a human behind the pinny number.
Em
10 Likes
I see it more as educational discussion than trying to make new rules or criticisms. For the record I never said rider should have retired but not sure if that comment was towards me.
Think of the flag rule. When something happens with it there is a lot of discussion because no one truly knows what’s going on with it half the time. How is asking these questions any different?
3 Likes
I have never posted as I am usually a lurker. However, I find this post disturbingly immature. I researched jealoushe and her Boss Mare Eventing Blog. It’s interesting that she does not appear to have competed above Training level and at her last event had 60+ penalties on cross country (wonder why she didn’t retire?). Maybe her mare was a bit over faced? She also has a helmet cam that shows a very similar stop at a MUCH smaller fence as the one being discussed. Her show record is far from stellar. It’s curious she would be so critical of an upper level rider with an amazing show record when I doubt she has close to the training and experience of the rider in question. Jealoushe is not a professional, not a certified trainer, not a qualified judge, nor technical delegate. She appears very mean spirited and judgmental. I hope she has read many of these posts and learns to be less critical of others.
9 Likes
Up till now, this thread was somewhat dissatisfying because there was one essential element still missing…
… a troll.
So thank you and welcome, FatFred.
15 Likes
Welcome to the board BadEventer (or whatever the name of the blog is) lol. Sorry, couldn’t help myself.
6 Likes
I think you called it:lol:
4 Likes
I got 197.6 penalties at Preliminary 20 years ago! I guess that means I am not allowed to comment here based on what Freddo says are qualifications. As far as I know Prelinimary/2 Star is NOT upper level evening as you suggest Freddo.
oh, and for the purposes of this discussion I am being completely judgmental of freddy’s comments and not those of anybody else. Sheesh.
13 Likes
I guess I have a different definition of “critical” or “judgmental” than many people on this thread. Asking about how a scenario should be scored doesn’t fail in those categories. Critical or judgmental would be calling someone reckless or saying they are unconcerned with the welfare of their horse.
12 Likes
I doubt the blog owner would make a post like that. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to read the blog post, find out somehow that it’s here, and then make an angry first post.
I also think it’s an important reminder of all the posters earlier on who claimed that people who blog had better be prepared for criticism and judgement.
The original post implied that the rider should have excused herself at the first stop in order to prevent another stop and I felt the way it was written did imply those things.
Other posters read the previous blog posts and suggested that there was a loss of confidence, or that the rider should have been held for a TD to decide if they were worthy to continue. Several said that riders shouldn’t blog if they don’t want to be judged by strangers and that it wasn’t their fault if the blogger’s feelings were hurt and there was no reason to apologize.
I think the troll is an important reminder of throwing the first stone. None of us are perfect and turnabout can really suck.
7 Likes
Honestly, read the whole post and have been following it since before the edits. I do think you are overreacting on behalf of badeventer a bit, and I felt that from your first post. Kudos to you for sticking up for your friend, even if it’s just an internet friend, and I am normally the one thinking posters here are being too cutthroat. I did read the OP post as rule clarifying.
I do follow badeventer, and unknowingly the OP (thanks for the creep stalking @FatFred )
Badeventer put it’s up for everyone to see. She has done crazy insane and wonderful things this year. She should feel proud of her accomplishments. But it is true when we put our accomplishments up, and generate a social media presence , that people will use that for different reasons. I see the OP’s and subsequent posts as educational, not dragging someone over the coals.
just like someone asking about the fall on course, rules like willful delay, the stop and walk forward confusion, our sport is filled with rules that our riders, coaches and volunteers try and keep on top of. Educating ourselves further is not tearing each other down. Badeventer gave an excellent learning opportunity for others that was out there for the taking.
12 Likes
Have to LOL at the bolded irony here. Let me ask a few questions and comment on this.
Just curious what name you searched? My married/now divorced name or my maiden name? Did you just go by my blog or by my actual results, which are all wrong on the EC website. Anyone can attest to how EC results don’t show up properly, but I digress. If from my blog, I have not written in ages. Those are not my recent results nor does it include everything.
You are right, I am not a trainer. I am not a professional, nor any of those things. I am a lowly amatuer, who did not come from money. I worked my entire life so far, to pay for a farm and horses and be able to compete and enjoy life. I fully admit -I’m a nobody.
But I AM - Passionate about eventing, event horses and safety.
But you are incorrect I have only evented to Training. I evented to Prelim at 15 and was training for YR when my horse was injured. It was devastating at the time, and I couldn’t afford another horse, so it took me over 10 years to get another horse who could make it Training level.
In between those years, I went to school, I was an actress doing several movies and TV shows, then I travelled to the UK and worked as head girl at a private event farm in Scotland. I evented Prelim there. Then worked in Ireland at an event yard after that. When I returned to Canada, I started my career and was limited in my riding. Here I am now, with my own 3 event horses, and a dressage horse.
I live in the most desolate area of Ontario for trainers and events. We have to travel 3-4 hours to event and at least 2 to get a decent lesson. Regardless, I keep at it.
Sure Penny, my amazing Chestnut mare isn’t perfect. But you know what she is? Perfect for me. I agree we had terrible results in the beginning. We always jumped clear but our dressage was under 50%, it was embarassing. It was not competitive. I could jump clean and still be dead last. I didn’t want to pound her legs off, so I made a decision, and I took 2 years off eventing her to work on her dressage. Oh yeah - XC Schooling is 2-3 hours away too. Nothing closer. At our last event of the year this year we scored 64%. I never thought this possible. We jumped double clear with time because I wanted to make sure we were rideable. So it’s funny you think my results are bad, when to me they are the results of a horsewoman who cares about her horse. Penny was not her usual brave self in the beginning of the year, but it is to be expected for a horse who hasn’t jumped XC in 2 years. What you didn’t mention was that 3/4 of the division where Penny had a 60, were eliminated. Seasoned Training level horses. But anyways, we finished the year 2nd in our Ontario Adult Ammy Challenge for Training level (WHOOT).
Another fun fact about Penny was she was ridden in the Pan Ams in Toronto for modern pentathlon and helped her rider win Gold. Proud moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qQmDg-l4i0
I have had a few other event horses over the years, all finished top 3 at most of the events they entered. Some sold, one had a tragic accident and I lost. So I guess my path to top levels hasn’t been as easy as buying something that has been there and done that. Or getting lessons every single day, or even week. My horses always come first though, and I am trying my hardest to always be better.
I will stop here, even though I want to carry on and brag about how amazing my little OTTB dressage horse did this year too 
Thanks for the laugh and the chance to tell you a little more about myself. Thats just the surface really.
For anyone who wants to see my Youtube vids: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQt…j8bqDEUio6z9ww
Critique away!!
10 Likes
All good, I can take the heat 
3 Likes
Someone brought up the point of people wanting to be able to say whatever they want regardless of who it hurts or offends. I kinda feel the opposite, there are always people who will manage to interpret things in a way that offends them. There really are a lot of special snowflakes (oh yeah, I’m using the term) these days that either actively look for things to be offended of, or to be offended on someone else’s account.
If BE is reading this, I hope the social media burning she is talking about is on a different social media because all I’ve seen on here is praise for her in general, and clarification on something that OP wanted clarification on. And a few people that misinterpreted the OP and got upset about it.
9 Likes
