? regarding lateral flexion

I found an old thread discussing lateral flexion in regards to Clinton Anderson. Many people were of the opinion that it’s a terrible exercise, does more harm than good. (Sorry, I can’t find the same thread today, of course.) I watched Buck’s 7 Clinics DVDs and he does a lot of lateral flexing. Everyone loves Buck, so what gives? Is CA doing it incorrectly? No feel, no release, too heavy-handed, what? Or are they both overdoing it?

I’m not a CA fan so haven’t watched many of his online videos. The one I saw yesterday gave me the impression that he is rougher and quicker than Buck. Buck has a certain finesse. So, thoughts?

If the head tips off vertical, you’re wasting your time because you’re twisting the spine. If you twist the spine starting at the poll, your reins will never cleanly connect all the way back to the hind foot and you’re damaging your horse.

Bad: http://d387n7te6hkkmo.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/090602_Anderson_2848.jpg

Good: http://www.europeanhorsemanship.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/howto-mount-a-horse-lateral-flexing-buck-brannaman.jpg

There’s some debate as to whether too much flexion can disconnect them at the neck (you get only neck bend, no bend elsewhere), but done with finesse it should work out. Not everyone LOVES Buck, but his method is sound for what he wants to accomplish.

I find it funny that in the first few google image searches it was easy to find Clinton being his usual finesse-filled self, and Buck doing his thing as usual.

I think that question would take several chapters in a training book to answer.

We need to define what kind of lateral flexion first.

There is the kind where you ask the horse, with a halter, bosal, snaffle, whatever you have, to give laterally, a hint of giving at first, then a bit more, then over time and the horse getting more flexible, where it gives without straining against it, willing and soft, you may ask for as much bend as you wish.

Doing that both ways is seen similar to stretching exercises.
You can also do the same as carrot stretches, where you lead the horse’s nose around with a carrot or other treat, the horse follows.

When you do that with the horse standing there, you are working the horse in a way that you don’t want it to work when you are riding, because you are disuniting the horse, you are separating those important balance muscles involved from the rest of the body to move them by themselves.

If you overdo that, when you ride the horse and ask for a bit of give, the horse will give, but break at the poll or any other place down to the withers and cheat on you, his giving is not translating to moving his whole body as one, ready for whatever you will ask next.

That cheating is called rubbernecking, a hard bad habit to correct and an easy bad habit to teach and reinforce for those wannabe trainers that only see the giving, don’t know any better, don’t realize the horse is not responding but by disuniting, not a good idea generally on a riding horse.

Now there is the other way of flexing to get a horse to give softly as it is receiving the energy that the front is receiving from behind, as the horse collects properly.
There is a fine line there with giving, a soft feeling all over the horse, with giving so it, again, breaks somewhere on the neck and disconnects.
That is best done while the horse is moving, where it is engaging it’s whole body.

One way to get a horse that tends to overflex giving properly and still keep the energy flowing is to use more leg and MORE LEG, yes, almost shouting with your leg and seat, something aggressive trainers like Clinton Anderson can do in their sleep, so well they never even know there may be a problem, because if a horse start cheating, they immediately just push it on.

Well, others don’t like a horse that is quite so finely tuned to giving, they want giving, just not overflexing, so they then don’t have to correct.

In a way, a bit of flexion, done properly, is fine.
Doing it to every horse, most of the time, while you are riding them, as some do, well, you just end up, easily, with a spaghetti necked horse, if you are not careful.

There is way more to this, how to have the horse, when you pick up the reins, just that motion, on a drapey rein, the horse already uses his back properly and curls up on your hand, without really flexing, but you can feel the energy flowing under you and the horse is then ready to move from behind, elevated in front.
When you have that feel, you can do anything, even flying lead changes, because the horse is so soft and willing as to be an extension of you.

You can learn all those concepts best if you get with a really good trainer and get to learn on a finely tuned horse.
Once you have the feel for that, then you can learn to look for it on any other horse you ever ride, a bit like once you learn to ride a bicycle, you can ride any other.

I have seen colts bred for that kind of athletic and mind combination already offering that kind of ride the first time on them, but any horse can learn to move like that, even if they won’t be stars at it.

I hope all that helped some, where you can go find more on your own.
The technical parts of riding and training and performance are about the concepts behind it and this topic is one of those.

[QUOTE=aktill;8598534]
If the head tips off vertical, you’re wasting your time because you’re twisting the spine. If you twist the spine starting at the poll, your reins will never cleanly connect all the way back to the hind foot and you’re damaging your horse.

Bad: http://d387n7te6hkkmo.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/090602_Anderson_2848.jpg

Good: http://www.europeanhorsemanship.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/howto-mount-a-horse-lateral-flexing-buck-brannaman.jpg

There’s some debate as to whether too much flexion can disconnect them at the neck (you get only neck bend, no bend elsewhere), but done with finesse it should work out. Not everyone LOVES Buck, but his method is sound for what he wants to accomplish.

I find it funny that in the first few google image searches it was easy to find Clinton being his usual finesse-filled self, and Buck doing his thing as usual.[/QUOTE]

Ok, before I posted this I found a picture of CA doing this with another horse on the ground, head tilted the same way. I did notice that difference compared to the Buck video I was watching. His horse flexed around properly.

Bluey, thanks for the response. Something good to discuss with my instructor when I get back to lessons. (Recuperating from foot surgery, hence the DVD watching.)

An interesting aside, friends stopped using a Dr. Cook’s bridle because it was causing horse to tip her nose in this manner, and she became sore.

It’s really because Clinton does it for obedience and subservience, where Buck only uses it in context of correctness.

Doesn’t surprise me to hear that about Dr Cook. It asks the horse to flex the wrong way at the poll to start with, in addition to the direct rein pull.

When I first start training a horse, or restart after they’ve been off all winter, I do what clinton calls the one rein stop - starting on the ground, then at the halt, then walk, then trot. But I agree that the horse should not turn it’s face upwards - it should be done like Buck’s photo. As training progresses, I do much less of this, the older horses do none, and I do lateral work such as side pass, leg yield, canting, counter bending.

To build on what Palm Beach said, the danger with doing too much disengaging the haunches (for safety, generally) is that the horse starts flipping his hip out anytime the rein is picked up. I can speak from experience that it then becomes really difficult to teach them to ENGAGE the haunches lol.

Different from flexions, but the same school.

[QUOTE=aktill;8598885]
It’s really because Clinton does it for obedience and subservience, where Buck only uses it in context of correctness.[/QUOTE]

This. Years ago I got free tickets to one of Clinton Anderson’s 2-day shows/clinics. His overriding goal, it seemed to me, was to produce quiet, obedient, dead-broke horses that timid middle-aged women could enjoy handling and riding.

Note: That statement should not be interpreted as any criticism of timid middle-aged women, because I’ve turned into kind of a timid old lady myself. :lol: