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Registration Question- Arab Warmblood Cross

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

I am am expecting an Arab Warmblood cross in 2018 and have a registration dilemma. The mare is RPSI/Westfalen main mare book approved book 1. However, the stallion is not book 1 approved.

Soooo… I can get a COP for foal. Or register it as a half Arabian (stallion is a registered Arabian). My thoughts though are that if I get a nice filly, what to do. If I go the COP route, it will take multiple generations to get back to the main mare book with Westfalen/RPSI NA. They’ve been great and friendly advising on the situation. However… I am wondering if I registered half Arab, could I present a good filly to any open book Warmblood registry for main mare book approval consideration? If the filly holds a COP from Westfalen, would all the other open book registries automatically relegate her to pre mare book 2 status as well? Would they approach a Half Arabian registered mare differently?

In general, I would prefer to pursue the COP from Westfalen/RPSI. Their customer service and support has been great. And if it’s a gelding that’s an easy decision. I want to be sure I fully understand implications for a filly though.

I don’t have any interest in doing Arab shows. I do have an interest in keeping a filly though.

#2

You can actually do both, and I would.

7 Likes
#3

You can? I thought double registration was a no go. Perhaps only double registration with a WBFSH recognized association?

#4

Yes, you can. HA is not just a recording in a registry, it’s recording of a breed. And no, they aren’t wbfsh. You’ll find many half Arabs also registered with other organizations, including rpsi, old, gov, ptha, etc.

1 Like
#5

Awesome. That makes more sense.

#6

Sorry double post

#7

AFAIK, for the Euro-based WB registries, “Half-Arab” papers are not accepted for studbook1/Main Mare Book. Only Arabians, Anglos, Shagyas, and TBs have “special” status for presentation for breeding approval. F1 Arab (or F1 AA, Shagya, TB) WB crosses are only eligible if they were produced from approved parents and are registered within a WB studbook and otherwise meet the specific requirements of the particular studbook.

For your purposes, “Half-Arab” papers may be less useful than a COP because 1) AHA doesn’t routinely record the pedigree of the non-Arabian parent and 2) DNA testing is not required for most HAs. For an extra fee several generations of the non-Arab pedigree can be recorded. DNA testing can also be done upon request (for the cost of the test). You have to know to ask for these options because they are not standard.

As others have pointed out you can get both a COP and HA papers to keep options open --particularly if you might sell at some point. There are buyers looking for HAs for the Arab breed shows where Arabian registry papers are required.

#8

I don’t know if this has changed. I brought two 1/2 Arabs to a RPSI inspection about 5 years ago along with the full Arab dam of both. One 1/2 Arab was a mare (4-5 yrs old at the time) and the other a young colt still by the dam’s side. They had different Hanoverian sires, both licensed and approved by their registries and considered eligible for RPSI stallion Book 1, though not registered with RPSI.

At that inspection the full Arab mare (the dam of the other 2) was admitted into the Main Mare Book. The 1/2 Arab colt was inspected and received a full brand. He earned high silver premium and missed gold premium by about 2 pts. The other half Arab Mare was also admitted into their Main Mare Book. The mares were already registered with AHA (full Arab and 1/2 Arab). The colt was not AHA registered at the time of the inspection but was registered afterwards. I had to provide AHA registration papers for the mares and the breeding papers I received from the stallion owners and vet for the 1/2 Arabs. I did pay extra for DNA testing and samples for anaylsis were taken at the inspection.

If in doubt, I would call or write and ask about potential eligibility and what information you would need to have to prove parentage and pedigree.

2 Likes
#9

Thanks for the detailed information Dawn J-L. This is in line with what RPSI Westfalen advised, but a more in depth explanation. I definitely like the idea of double registration, in the event I ever sell and someone else does want to do the Arab shows.

#10

In your case, you had two approved parents. The original Arab mare (who was approved upon inspection), and the Hanoverian sires. Thus your half Arab foals DO qualify for full papers. My breeding this season involves a main mare book 1 approved Warmblood mare, bred to an Arab stallion. The stallion was advertised as well as represented in person multiple times as “Book 1 approved” and has done performance testing… and I do know him very well in person, and am looking forward to the foal… But I am now belatedly trying to sort out registration options after finding out from the registry that the stallion is NOT book 1 approved… only pony book approved. I’m not trying to breed riding ponies though… Just an athletic small horse. And if it’s a nice filly, I do want to preserve future broodmare options. Live and learn and I should have double checked information provided earlier… so COP and Half Arab papers seems the best option now for this situation.

If I love the foal and want to try the cross again in the future, I will definitely pursue your boy Dawn… FCF Oberon’s Vanity. He is TRULY Book 1, and had great performance test results, and a baby from that cross would be eligible for full papers.

1 Like
#11

Ahhh, yes. I do see the difference. I did note that you said that the stallion was not RPSI Book 1 approved. I didn’t know if the stallion had approval with a different registry or not and just did not have licensing/registration with RSPI. In my case, the stallions were not registered and licensed with RPSI, but were with other WB registries. RPSI had to verify their eligibility for RPSI’s stallion 1 book through the other registries (reciprocity).

#12

OP, there is also an Arabian SH Alliance that may also be helpful-

https://arabiansporthorsealliance.org/

#13

I am the secretary. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the shout out.

1 Like
#14

I would do both. Arab crosses tend to be a niche market and arab owners who want to show do not buy horses without papers unless they are buying your general backyard type horse who does local shows. Registering as a half arab really opens up your market to arab people as well as your price range, especially since quite a few people in the open world have a bias against arabs period.

2 Likes
#15

Thank you for the kind words about my boy, Obie. :slight_smile:

#16

Maybe I’m missing something: if the resulting foal happens to be a filly and has an RPSI COP and is registered Half Arab, she’d still be eligible for inspection as a 3 year old and the mare books, right? Her pedigree would all be copacetic, no?

I have a similarly bred arab x WB, and that’s what I was told… maybe I was told incorrectly…

#17

The theoretical filly can be presented as a 3 yr old, and approved, but she will be placed in pre mare book 2… Because the Arab stallion I bred to was not actually book 1 approved. Perhaps the situation is different than breeding to an uninspected pure Arab stallion… RPSI/Westfalen did inspect this guy, but he was recorded book 2 for horses, and fully licensed for sport pony breeding.

​​​​​​​How does it work if you breed a main mare book approved Warmblood mare to a nice TB stallion who is uninspected? Baby only eligible for COP and pre mare book 2 approval?

#18

@Virginia Horse Mom OK, so it’s the fact that he’s a book 2 stallion that is limiting her?

That still seems odd. Because as you said, I thought you could present half arabs to RPSI for breeding approval, so long as the “half” was a registry they recognize and allow. (TB or the European WBs)

Is my understanding incorrect?

Because if you can present a mare by an unapproved/uninspected arabian stallion out of a TB or WB and have her be eligible for the main mare book/book 1, then it doesn’t seem “fair” that your theoretical girl should be limited to the pre-mare book regardless of how she scores. But then, I guess that would be the case with every book 2 stallion, so I guess it’s never “fair.”

It’s been so long since I’ve done anything with RPSI, so now I’m just trying to wrap my head around this. Here’s to hoping your girl has a beautiful colt. :smiley:

#19

Agreed Tex! I am hoping for a lovely foal that I will enjoy… And glad to have multiple registration options. It’s frustrating though, I LOVE the mare who is 17 this year, and will definitely keep any filly from this mare… I just was caught off guard by the pre mare book 2 designation for any filly eventually approved for breeding.

The other question I have is IF we end up with COP, and pre-mare book 2 status with Westfalen/RPSI… how does that work in terms of presenting the theoretical mare to other open book registries? OHBS or ARS? Are we automatically going to be limited to their pre mare book as well? I’m assuming so at this point.

Other than registry confusion, the pregnancy is going great. The broodmare is a total heart horse for me, and I am enjoying having her at home to closely manage and treat like a queen throughout her gestation.

#20

@Dawn J-L 's informative post made me realize my above statement is incorrect.

If I’m understanding her correctly, half arabs are not eligible for breeding approval period, unless a registered Anglo.

Hmm. I guess I’m still having a hard time with this because I feel like I was told differently with my own HA mare (out of a RPSI book 1 approved Arab mare by an unapproved SF/Hano stallion). I probably misunderstood at the time, and it’s a moot point in my mare’s case since it is unlikely I’d pursue breeding approval for her.

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