I should add that my smart bossy sometimes angry mare is the best trick horse ever and I can tell her to go stand on a tarp or circus box and she’ll go and park there and wait.
The trick to that was clicker training which I’d recommend if you were having ground work problems, but is disruptive under saddle.
Maresy can now learn a new trick in about 5 minutes if I can explain to her what I want, create a clear cue, and if its something she doesn’t mind doing.
She can also learn new bad behavior just as fast. Including “ok in this particular arena we always have a fight before we get to work.”
Unlearning is difficult. You need to layer a new behavior over the old one. For instance I’m sure she will never unlearn “smiling” for treats.
We unlearned fighting in the arena by riding in and out, doing one loop, out again. Now if she stsrts to get pissy, going out and coming in works as a reset button.
It sounds like your mare has already learned that “now we fight, later we work” is a game plan. You need to figure out how to layer that over with a new behavior that fits your scenario.
THIS. A wonderful horsewoman once told me to always treat your horse the way you want them to be. I too have a famously moody diva-type mare who tends towards dramatics at the least bit of perceived discomfort. Don’t fall into the trap of bad-mouthing your mare - it’ll just become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know its fun to joke and make light of a shitty situation, but eventually it’ll change the way you view her and can help her.
I don’t have too much advice re: toeing the line between behavioral/training issues and hormones. With mine, the behavior problems stemmed from unhappiness and stress. I found the source of the stress, fixed the environment, and I’m seeing so much improvement.
According to the website it is chasteberry, raspberry, and Angelica. All the usual herbs for mares. Nothing new. Don’t see why it would be significantly different from those.
As a behaviorist I can say with confidence that reinforcement does not work that way :winkgrin: You have never called your animals names? You would have a heart attack at my house. My cats, dog, and horses have lots of names such as but not limited to: “fata*s,” “dummy,” “cow,” “brainless,” “weirdo,” ya idiot!” “dingleberry,” and “witch” (sometimes…often…replace ‘w’ with ‘b’). My husband and I have select names for our 2 year old son as well. You would keel over and die at those! I love my boy no less on his bad days than on his good but sure, sometimes he can be a little jerk. Ever have a toddler? Of course he would never hear those ones but I am sure my animals do not care when I call them names.
I have no doubt that she will be a great mare. She already is super cool! But she has had a year to walk and trot and putter around, I need for her to not throw a giant temper tantrum (for lack of better description) every time I pick up the reins and ask her to move off and accept my leg. This is not an unreasonable request for a horse with her experience. She will walk and trot around and around and around forever at her own pace. She has mastered ground work. It is not abusive that I put a little more pressure on her at this point in her training. Her overreactivity whenever she does not like something is unacceptable.
I am am very flattered that some people think I can do without the trainers. But I am seeking help before my confidence and hers is shattered because I cannot control and follow through with her tantrums and I get us to a bad place. After a year I still cannot safely go out on trails, canter, or ask this mare to get down to business (accept contact, move off the leg). If I let her trot back to the barn after every trail ride maybe. If I let her barrel me around at the canter until she gets tired and finally stops maybe. If I never ask for her to soften at her poll or for a shoulder fore maybe. If you knew this horse you would know that more time is not the answer to our training problems. I have only ever produced horses to training level eventing and second level dressage with no aid at all but those horses were always much more straightforward than this one and while there are challenges in training every horse this spicy little dragon is giving me a run for my money. I am totally cool admitting I need help with her. She is and will be resistant to training until we get over this hump and get through to her what we expect of her and earn her confidence that she will not die by being obedient to her people.
Scribbler, because these mares are the smartest! I bet she would take to clicker training. I worked with a mare once who HATED the sound of the clicker. I worked a while to pair the sound with positive reinforcement but gave up, never did follow through. She was the best, most honest horse but kind of bland in the noggin haha. Thanks for doing the research on that supplement. I have never heard of Angelica before though, will research that.
When my vet was here on the 5th for spring stuff and the exam she did say that Regumate would be the next go-to to try for my mare’s inconsistencies and temper. I did not really think about that much because I am so anti-medication in general I just wrote it off right away. But maybe there is something to it. I am happy to hear of (well, one I guess) person who does not believe it will cause any long term ill effects to try. Best case is it dials back her defensiveness so we can get through to her and worst case it does not help and we just chug along.
@CupOJavaa consider how you yourself earned this mare’s trust. I’m guessing it wasn’t by starting each interaction with an agenda and continuing to push along to completion of that agenda when she said “no.”
Just because you can lead her up to the block, mount, and ride off with her quietly doesn’t mean a stranger can–as you’ve learned! So why on earth are you allowing your trainer to continue to fight (the word you used to describe their interaction) with her?
The trainer needs to slow down. Mare says “no” at the block? So quietly, with no fight, get success there, then pat the horse, tell her she’s brilliant and put her away. The ride can wait for another day. Mare needs to trust trainer like she trusts you, and fighting with her sure isn’t going to get there. Fighting with her very well may take the progress you’ve made with her backwards, because there’s going to be a point where she starts blaming you for putting her in these situations.
I encourage you to think of her as anxious and untrusting instead of being BAD.
And really–if your trainer thinks fighting with her is okay, you’d really be better off with a different person. It’s not a good fit. Horses like this take a special kind of person.
Maybe “fight” was not the right word. This trainer has only seen her twice now so no doubt it will take time for my mare to accept her. She was exactly the same way with the last trainer last fall, even did the same thing at the mounting block the first time that trainer ever tried to get on. I was actually really please with how this aoman handled my mare when she made a liar of me though (Trainer: “is she good to mount?” Me: “oh yes absolutely.” horse explodes sideways away from mounting block soon as trainer gets to the top step).
She took some time even before getting on to walk and trot my mare in hand, practiced keeping her sharp on stopping with her right at her shoulder, had her step sideways a bit, crossed her hind legs over, and generally took the time they needed so they could both get a “feel” for one another. Mare was very curious and attentive the whole time. Then when they got to the mounting block she suddenly did not know her manners. Mhmmm. Well played horse, well played. Horse blew up sideways and Trainer just stood there at the top of the block with the reins and gave her a cluck to get her going forward and let my mare walk around and around and around. Turned my mare around and let her walk around and around the other way until mare decided she was done with that and stopped. She just stood there and explained if the horse wants to overreact just let her, no need to make a big deal about it which has totally always been my philosophy as well. This trainer is definitely not picking any fights. She galloped horses at the track for years before working under some of the best names our side of the country and then produced her own OTTB mare and took her to Rolex. I do appreciate all concerns. If I had any myself, well, I am not a shy person. I would gladly kick out god if his morals did not align with mine.
They has disagreements right from the get go. Trainer went to walk mare around and she was all prancey, pinning her ears, scooting sideways. I am standing there like “I SWEAR she can walk” (flashback to when my farrier showed up for the first time and I am pulling her out of her stall and she is blowing, eyes wide…”I SWEAR she is good to shoe)”. So the trainer put her to work. Do not want to behave and walk on a loose rein? Then we can start working before you try harder to dump my ass. I see nothing wrong with that. Babying this horse is what will set her back and she will 100% take advantage of you if you do not earn her respect. The trainer just sat her out, let her fight with herself, and stayed persistent in asking for this and that (namely submission to the leg). Left leg on, horse starts broncing and throwing her head around like a fool, so the left leg will absolutely stay there until she gets over it. That is where I need a trainer’s help because a pro does a marvelous job of saying “eh too bad” and just sticking with my mare and staying persistent with the question without getting nervous.
Soon as mare gave in and accepted her leg the trainer softened. At the end of the ride they walked around quietly on a loose rein. At the very end the trainer swung her leg over as if to dismount and then swung her leg back over and got back in the saddle. Then again. Mare stood there perfectly. Trainer dismounted and went back to the mounting block and climbed up. Mare stood like a statue. Trainer leaned across my mare, patted her all over, laid across her and kicked her legs around, then mounted and dismounted. Mounted and dismounted. My mare just sighed and I swear if she could roll her eyes she would have. Trainer gave mare lots of pats and all was well again in paradise.
My mare was so much better for the trainer at the mounting block today than the first time, just one little step forward when she first sat in the saddle so no big deal. But again she was very up and tried to get a spin in right from the get go once my trainer walk her along. So back to work they went.
I hardly think it is fair to judge a trainer via some posts online after hearing of two training rides and having not seen either session. And if I could afford to have a trainer spend as much time with my mare as I do - feeding her three times a day, hand grazing her randomly for fun, giving her ear scratches at night check, spending some days just taking her for a walk in hand or grooming her in all of her favorite spots - just so my mare will trust the trainer as much as she trusts me, well…actually I probably would not do it. She should not need this sort of attention, bond, and connection to every single human being to not be a complete turd when asked to do something.
But, this is way off track (kind of a pun, kind of intended?)! I am at a roadblock, need assistance, and am comfortable with the bit of help. After the first training ride last week my mare was AWESOME the next day. I actually cantered her in both directions, correctly and quietly, she allowed me to sit the trot a good 5-6 paces before asking for the canter without exploding forward soon as my butt sat the first stride, and she never got anxious or rushy after our canter work. Best ride since last fall for sure! I am looking forward to seeing how she goes tomorrow.
I am just curious if Regumate will curb some of her extreme defensiveness based off some personal experience after it was suggested to me by my vet and my trainer. Who knew Regumate was really a can of worms?
Words over the internet can only be so telling though. Animals and people are far too complicated that a couple of paragraphs can ever give anyone the exact picture or understanding of all the thoughts, feelings, and emotions presented at any one moment in time to someone else reading the words. Especially because language is so fluid and wrought with emotion. Just because I used the word “fight” in a sentence hours ago when I was emotionally invested in a concern does not mean I have poor judgement as to my horse’s required direction. I mean you no disrespect that I disagree that the trainer is the issue here. Again, I appreciate the concern, I do, but I have witnessed their interaction together, watched my horse’s response and sigh of acceptance and felt her understanding the next day. I was just looking for similar experiences with Regumate or if anyone knows of barns using it frequently.
Thank you for your opinion too. I intend to talk with my vet about it again next week for a final opinion. But if I do try the Regumate I will be sure to report results back here! I know I will be waiting at least a few more weeks to see how things go without first.
OH! And if the trainer does end up being a poor match for any reason then I will also report back and you can tell me you told me so :winkgrin: I am not too proud to cut my losses while I am ahead if I see no improvement or gain. I have to give it more than two rides for a horse like mine though, and so far I am hopeful!
My mare had way overactive ovaries (numerous follicles on both ovaries…normal would be one follicle on one ovary) and Regumate made a big difference. She was fabulous when in heat (relaxed and loving), because the pain was from multiple follicles right before ovulation and coming in heat (so coming in heat was clearly a relief to her). Like you, I am generally very anti-medication for me or my animals, but a trainer I trusted thought my mare’s issues were hormonal and he was right. A one month trial of Regumate is not that expensive and should give you a good idea of whether her “issues” really are hormone-related or not.
I think a 5 year old TB is still a 5 year old horse, by which I mean that she’s young. No matter that she raced as a 2 year old (or whatever) and that she’s been ridden consistently since. 5 years old is 5 years old.
She’s a teenager. A 1200 lb. teenager.
In my view, the trainer should know that he/she needs to train the horse they have in front of them on that day, and not the horse that they’ve been led to believe exists. So, if a young horse won’t stand at the mounting block, then the trainer needs to train how to stand at the mounting block; the trainer shouldn’t just muscle the horse into position, jump on and start trying to get the horse round on a circle, or whatever.
Horses don’t know schedules, they don’t know where they should be on the training scale after x number of months off the track, etc. I’d just ease up the training a bit, and basically go ahead and enjoy riding your horse for a while. Let her grow up. JMHO.
From your posts, I’m wondering if someone who does Monty Roberts type work would help with her? His farm (Flag is Up) offers certification in his methods. Do you have anyone in your area like that?
My first thought is that the trainer is not reading the horse. I was then surprised to hear that the trainer has only ridden the horse twice and the response is that the horse “blew up” already.
I boarded my mare after I bought her at age 5 and the barn used an outside trainer for training rides. I tried really hard to get to the barn when the trainer was scheduled to be on her and never could get a time nailed down so I could watch. Once I saw her riding another horse and was kind of surprised at how aggressively she rode that horse, and wondered if that was how she rode my horse - very heavy handed and the horse went around with ears pinned. They had used another outside trainer that I did see sometimes - in retrospect he was so quiet, so gentle that he made every ride look easy, even on horses just started.
I would definitely consider the possibility that this trainer isn’t a great match for your horse. (Or possibly for any horse, who knows.) Not every trainer is good at starting/restarting horses and lots of them are not great for all types of horses (sensitive, lazy, etc.)
I tried the smartcalm ultra and also the raspberry leaves, they did nothing to calm my sensitive/anxious mare when under saddle. Last summer in desperation I put her on regumate and noticed a more relaxed horse. When she is in season I have never seen her wink, excessively pee, pin her ears, etc. I don’t even know when she’s in season. Tho, I think when she has that wild, hard eye look she’s in it. Most days even when not in season she is anxious/worried under saddle as it is just who she is. All we ask is walk and trot yet you would think we are asking for the moon!
I tried to not put her on regumate this year, but gave in last week. It’s so discouraging to deal with a horse that has her sensitivity level. Yet, is so sweet and loving when not under saddle. Riding just fires her up and she want to go and go at her speed which is quick!
I tried a bottle of Regumate with my mare. She was not mareish before the meds, The Regumate did not address the behavioral issue, so we discontinued it. She is not mareish afterward. If that’s your primary concern, and given that your vet and trainer both agree that’s a reasonable next step, I’d give it a shot.
I say this as someone who detests having Regumate in the barn, just because it’s a PITA to handle. But I have also seen it work very effectively, and if that’s what she needs, that’s what she needs.
I would like to add though…
If you watch a herd, mares are the leaders in the herd. They manage the herd and keep it running. if a mare gets the impression that you, the human are not leader material, she will take over… She has to, there is no other choice, if there is no leader in the herd the herd will be destroyed. it’s nature.
And whatever people say, Horses are still obeying their laws dictated by nature.
we tend to medicate everything whenever there is a problem, that’s not how a herd works…
you need to make clear in everything that you are the leader and that you take care of the herd… If you are not able to do that, better sell her to a more dominant person…
Guess how I know… I have 5 mares and 2 of them are very dominant, and I am not a dominant person… But in order to manage them, I do need to establish my leadership daily…
and about your trainer… I don’t know how well he (she) rides, but you make it more difficult for the trainer if you let your mare be in charge. Because now the trainer has to fight a horse which thinks she is in charge…
BTW I have the problem that my trainer is bigger and stronger then me, and my mare loves her… She never tries anything with her… But of course she is used to the fact that she does not get away with her ideas with me either, just takes more work…
She is the leader of my herd and all the other mares are very respectful…
I’m late to this but I’m going to throw in my 2 cents.
My mare was on Regumate and I noticed absolutely no difference. So there’s that.
My mare was called La Bruja (the witch) by barn staff and justly so. When she did not want to do something, it was No.
Not NO! or Make me! Just simply no. period. And you could do whatever you wanted and she wouldn’t budge from her chosen path. I see it this way, a horse that has a “Make Me” attitude can be made. To me, it’s like a two year old child throwing a fit and screaming no. No is their favorite word and you work thru the attitude with them.
The fact that your trainer makes eventual headway with her is encouraging. But - my friend had a stallion that would let ammies, kids and pretty much anyone who knew nothing ride him all day and he was very sweet. However, the minute she got on or someone who knew what they were doing, he decided he was going to make them work for it. He would give nothing away for free. Not that you don’t know anything. The trainer might know more and Marey has decided to make her werk.
Do you know what her bloodlines are? Some TB mares from certain bloodlines can be very alpha and unpleasant.
P.S. She’s gorgeous!
Your mare is NOT dead broke, as you clearly admit in the bolded statements. A dead broke horse responds correctly ALL THE TIME.
If her behavior is hormonal, you would see a change in attitude seasonally as well as cyclically. You be the judge.
You can always try Regumate and see if the majik works. My gut says it won’t, because you’ve already identified the problem. You have a behavior problem, which is fixed with training. She is NOT a baby that needs to be handled with kid gloves. She needs a clear, consistent approach to what is expected to her so she learns to respond correctly. If you don’t have “Go” after a year under saddle, you probably need a new trainer, especially with a TB.
Agree. I rode and competed a mare a few years ago who was not really mareish, she’d just stop and pee way more often than necessary, like in a flat class. Regumate took care of that. You just wear gloves, which for me is a daily necessity October through April. Put a pair of rubber kitchen gloves next to the bottle for those who go gloveless. It’s really not any more of a PITA than any other supplement that needs to be given regularly. Sometimes she’d get it at 4 AM on a show day, sometimes at 10 AM on a lazy Monday. Once we ran out and she didn’t get it for 4-5 days. It’s not that big of a deal.
Agree. I went back and re-read this thread. The OP used a different trainer in the past and this is the new trainer. Hard to know what kind of training the horse has had so far but sounds like it has been mostly the OP doing it. The horse is definitely not dead broke and it seems likely that training by the OP has involved how NOT to upset the mare, rather than training the mare out of those behaviors - because if a horse will stand at the mounting block, for example, they stand. If you’ve figured out how to mount quickly before they move, that’s not training them, it’s training you. Same with under saddle work - if you have figured out how not to be dumped by the evasion, it’s likely that you’re doing something to avoid being dumped rather than the horse has learned to accept being ridden and doesn’t try to dump you.
It can’t hurt to try hormones, although if you do, unless behavior becomes much worse I would not change it again after just a month. I’d plan to have her on it for a few months at least, because coming off hormones could cause disruption again. It won’t change her cycles forever if it doesn’t work for her.
OP - has the trainer seen you ride the mare? I’d be curious to know and what she thinks of the way you’re riding and what/how it translates to the horse being more accepting.
My OTTB/ex-broodmare was very sensitive to leg aids at first. My trainer had to ride her very, very lightly for a while before she gradually added normal leg pressure. I think your trainer may have to back up to a position of considering her barely backed rather than “restarted and under saddle for a year.”
