Regumate for the Disobedient Witch

My trainer came out today for a training ride on my mare. My mare is 5, restarted under saddle a year now since being off the track. She is very alpha and is quite frankly a bitch under saddle sometimes…a lot of the times? She is much, much “kinder” to me under saddle probably because I do not put her to work quite like a professional does (uh, amateur here albeit an experienced one but still). Her issues are purely disobedience - she would score in the negatives on the “submission” mark in a test at her current rate. On the ground she is dead broke. Ground drives/lunges like a lazy angel. Put any real pressure on her though and she pins her ears and screams “make me.” My vet has been out multiple times and cannot find a thing wrong with her physically. This last visit on April 5th (normal spring stuff and a lameness/musculoskeletal exam for good measure) my vet said honestly her only issue, if she has one, is “up here” smiles sheepishly and taps her temple with her forefinger. My trainer always does eventually get her down and working nicely at the end of a ride but right now she ALWAYS puts up a good fight first. She is a lovely mover, very athletic, and has lots of great worthwhile qualities. She is in good hands with an accomplished 4* rider.

Today my trainer said “do yourself a favor and put this mare on regumate.” I had considered regumate before but this mare is not particularly hormonal - she is the exact same in heat as she is out of it (minus the extra peeing and occasional winking at her pasture mates). If anything, if I were to look hard at her behavior, I might say she is just a little lazier and sweeter when she is in heat.

Has anyone put their mare on regumate for “attitude” or for being a temperamental cow and not necessarily for heat-related hormonalness? When I worked as a working student in the past many of the mares in training were kept on regumate but I always assumed it was because they must have had nasty cycles.

When you say the vet found no issues, what exactly was checked?
Teeth?
Scoped for ulcers?
Saddle fit?

Sometimes horses just have bad attitudes, some are just a more difficult type, but a vast majority of the time their issues are caused or at least exasperated by pain somewhere. My mare is a “mareish-mare;” she will kick out and hop and baby-rear if we’re working on something new and/or difficult, or if I’m not asking her correctly (she’s very particular). However we typically work through it fast enough. If she doesn’t come around, or if she progresses to full-on balking (rare), then I know she’s having ulcer issues.
Plenty of people put mares on Regumate in an attempt to deal with mare-itude, not necessarily nasty cycles. They can have other hormone issues not strictly tied to “that time of the month.” Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. I wouldn’t consider one to be all that terrible just because she “puts up a fight” at first but comes down to business by the end of the ride, especially a 5-year-old only a year off the track.

I have a friend with a mare who is similar. No change in behaviour while in heat but always a make me attitude. She put her on raspberry leaves. Night and day difference. She buys it at the health food store and it’s only a teaspoon or so a day.

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Everything short of a full body scan has been checked on this horse. Teeth, ulcers, saddle, etc etc etc. Now, I have not ultrasounded every tendon or xrayed every bone but I have had the vet and chiropractor out multiple times to FIND something wrong with this horse. “Stifles, back, SI, neck…does ANYTHING hurt doc?” We can’t even get her to take a lame step after cranking all of her joints. Chiro last month advised NOT to adjust. She has always been and will always be a difficult horse. When I first got her a year and a half ago she was atrocious. I was told by two of her racing connections that she was dangerous. One person even told me that she was “unrideable, not suitable as a mount or for breeding.” She apparently dropped lots of jockeys by her signature “prop and wheel” move. She has come a very, very long way since then and is puppy-dog sweet. I have gotten the spin out of her for the most part (said with reluctance because no doubt it will always be in her somewhere) and she will go out on trail on her own. But, if she decides she wants to rush home and you hold her back and tell her “no…” you will face the wrath of satan and she will viciously display this disobedience that I am talking about. Perfectly content going out, dangerous coming back if she does not get her way. We are currently working on this.

Anyway, I am all for being empathetic towards the horse but at some point I do think it is time for them to buckle down and accept the pressure. Her behaviors only surface when the pressure gets put on (or she is prevented from doing what she wants i.e. trot home). She is worse at home than off property.

I do not care much for the term “marish.” Mares may often have a different scope of personality but I hate to generalize all mares as having an attitude or being hormonal. Some, maybe. But one of my best horses was a mare who was opposite this one now. She never argued, never said no, was totally level headed and she still peed and winked at strangers whenever she was in heat. I adore mares.

I am asking about Regumate because I have never heard of people, trainers particularly, putting all (or most) mares on Regumate. My trainer said something to the effect of her believing most training/competing mares should be on Regumate. Now, I hate medication. I will not take a Tylenol if I have a fever. My husband always makes fun of me because I could feel like absolute crap and refuse to take Dayquil. Do not even get me started about pain medications. Medication is always a last resort for me.

But, if Regumate really can help a very dominate, resistant horse then I MIGHT be willing to try it.

(she is more than a year and a half off the track)

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Wow just a teaspoon? She is on SmartCalm Ultra currently with the magnesium, B12, and tryptophan. I have never been a big believer in herbs for behavior changes but I do not see trying the raspberry leaves hurting anything. I did not even think of this. Thank you!

I would get a months dose and give it a try, why not? It won’t change the basic personality but if the issues are at all related to hormones it will dial them back.

But also if your trainer is getting into more fights than you then you maybe need a new trainer. A good pro gets more response and less fight than the average ammie owner.

I put my mare on Regumate two summers back when she seemed really angry. I also worked on not getting her pissed off ;). Took her off that fall and didn’t feel it necessary again.

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I guess what I am concerned about is that Regumate will screw her up. What if it does nothing for her so then I take her off of it after a month and her cycles are never the same again? I really like that she is the same horse when she is in heat as when she is not. She is very independent too, not herd bound in the least. She is happy to walk out of sight from screaming, panicked pasture friends running the fence trying to follow her. Is there any real fear in Regumate making a horse WORSE when it is discontinued after a length of time?

So the Regumate did help with your mare in training a couple of summers back? And how is she doing these days?

I considered that about trainers as well as I have not been with this one long but I worked with another trainer last fall for a little while and my mare was the exact same with that trainer as she is with this one. I like the trainer that I used in the fall but she is more focused on producing her own horse right now and selling horses off the track so I was having no luck with her schedule. I want someone to go cross country schooling with, who will come coach me at shows, etc. which has recently brought me to this other trainer.

My mare will stand like a statue at the mounting block for me, will walk around the ring on a loose rein, will trot lazily with her head down in warm up. For the trainers she wiggles around on the mounting block and is so up by the time they even make it to the ring that she has no opportunity to walk on a long rein (though they both always encourage her to do so at the start of every ride). She is very particular, very sensitive, hates change, and she really does love me. I am just sooo honored that she does not want anyone else to ride her…but these people are much better than me and I would occasionally like the help in producing her so she needs to learn how to accept a rider change!

Why give her something she doesn’t need?

Maybe she doesn’t like the discipline you’ve chosen or doesn’t like the way your trainer rides . Sometimes a horse just doesn’t do well with a certain rider.

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But how do you know she doesn’t need it? Not really my question though…I am asking if anyone knows of Regumate being used in this way: as in, as a regular aid in training difficult horses without an obvious hormone component to the behavior issue.

If by “discipline” you mean “anything that requires effort on part of the horse that is instructed by a human being” then sure, she does not like her discipline. She was sat on and asked to WALK like a decent citizen today. And as I stated above she is the same way with any rider that makes her WORK. She really does not have a discipline right now she is just green broke and I am expecting her to w/t/c quietly before I ask her to really do anything at all. There is no way to change her discipline right now because she needs to accept the basics before she does anything else. This horse is perfectly capable.

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Just out of curiosity, how’s she bred?

I have one that’s also very…opinionated. She will 100% bring it if you want to pick a fight with her, and she won’t back down. It’s just not effective to go that route with her.

In your shoes, I’d be looking for a trainer that gets along with her a little better.

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Yeah if she goes better for you than for the trainer, keep the trainer off her. My horse goes so much better for our trainer!

Regumate will not screw up your mare permanently any more than going on birth control for a few months screws up humans.

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Another why would you go so far as Regumate unless blood tests show a hormonal imbalance. Try a calming sup or magnesium or maybe raspberry leaves. In fact the information you provided would suggest hormones are NOT the issue at all. Check tack fit and get a good lameness vet to do an under saddle evaluation of the mare.

I was under the impression that Regumate was for mares that had issues while in heat. By your own admission she is calmer when in heat. I missed in your first post where she was just being started. Sorry.

By “discipline” I mean "dressage, jumping, "etc… I have had horses who did arena work fine , but I could tell they preferred being out on trail. Not because it was easier . I think instead of trying to mask her disobedience/ acting out with hormones / supplements , maybe give her more time to mature mentally, especially if she is just green broke and keep things simple for a while.

Some horses take longer to get started ( mentally) and some riders/ trainers push them a lot faster and harder than they are ready for and that can cause exactly what you are seeing in your mare. The fact that she acts one way with you ( who rides her easier) and acts anxious and nervous with the trainer to me speaks volumes.

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When I tried my mare on Regumate the months dose was certainly cheaper than doing a full slate of repro diagnostics.

Regumate isn’t the same as human birth control but shuts down the reproductive hormones similarly. So if a mare was having cramps before she showed signs of heat, for instance, that would also be shut down.

But the extra information makes it clear this mare has been considered a “problem horse” from the start, and honestly it takes a lot to qualify as a problem horse at the track!

Many OTTB that were considered just fine at the track are a handful to restart as riding horses: hot, spooky, super forward, bouncy in hand, mouthy or cribbers or stall walkers, etc.

I don’t know if Regumate is going to be a magic cure but it might temper the anger reflex enough that you can work through some other stuff with her.

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I have a mare that, while sweet, is also very opinionated (good term for it). She is very particular about everything, right down to which saddle pad I use and how tight her cinch is. When she’s in heat, her moodiness increases and she acts like a sullen toddler. If the conditions are not 100% optimal, she squeals, cow kicks and in some cases, will try to unseat a rider by reaching around and grabbing the toe of their boot. She never bucks, rears or pulls dirty tricks… she just isn’t shy about showing her unhappiness. I love my mares and I prefer them over geldings, but I do not like constantly fighting with them. It’s no fun for anyone.

Magnesium was the key to unlock her strange little mare mind. I have to be careful about dosing since it seems to have a really profound effect on her once it builds up in her system. I generally give her the recommended dose for about a month or two and then scale it back to about half the dose or else she’s very, veeeeeery laid back.

You absolutely cannot pick a fight with this mare either. But there is also a fine line to tread because she will 100% take advantage of someone so you have to be very stern but gentle with her. This is not a horse who I will let someone inexperienced even lead. Her ground manners are wonderful with me though: She ground ties in the wash stall, will stand in a bucket all day to have a hoof soaked, I have taught her tricks. I can “lead” her around without a line and I can send her in front of me and tell her exactly how many steps to take forward (the command is “up” to walk ahead of me) before I tell her to halt. I can tell her to “back” while standing 30 feet away from her. More than once people who have seen her on a lunge line has told me she is the best behaved horse on a lunge they have ever seen. I can tell her to “stand” in a field of grass and then walk away and clean a stall and she will not so much as put her head down to eat. The witch is SMART. Too smart sometimes. She remembers e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g.

The first time my trainer came out to ride her I had a great, easy ride on her the day before. As we were tacking her up in the cross ties she randomly just blew up while the two of us were chatting (I LOVE blocker tie rings by the way). And then as soon as my trainer got to the mounting block with her she blew up again before the woman even got to the top step. Totally uncharacteristic of this horse for ME but she tests EVERY single new person who works with her. This is NOT the first person to ride her other than me and this trainer has ridden her only twice now. I think people seriously underestimate horses like this one. I do not think horses “reason” or “plan ahead” but only a fool will look at this mare and tell me she is not testing the new person. She has to adjust to every new person and every new person literally has to work for her respect. This is part of why I want other people riding her and working with her in general. In her current state she is barely broke and she is not obedient to her riders or handlers unless that rider or handler is me and while some behaviors and favoritism on her part is totally acceptable when there are changes I consider her lack of respect and obedience for people in general to be a hole in her training that seriously needs to be filled for her own good. If I died tomorrow I fear where she would end up because someone else would have to start all over again with her.

And this is not just riding-related either. The first time my new farrier came out she would not let him pick up her feet! She picks up all four hooves just fine every single day and has been shod for years before! He could not even shod her that day. Now she is an angel for him and basically falls asleep when I hold her for her pedicure. He tells me she is one of his favorites. She was actually just shod a few days ago and I stuck her in the cross ties when my farrier was finishing up one hoof so that I could run inside my house really quickly. I came back out and my farrier was leaning against his truck smoking a cigarette. I asked him if he was finished already and she said “nope, she would not stand.” He said that as soon as I left she tried to blow up and would not pick up her foot. I put a lead back on her and we finished while she dozed off. After that we picked up every foot, wiggled every leg, she was perfect. I swear she has her head turned around to looked at me like “whaaat?”

People do not and cannot understand a horse from a handful of online posts. I just have a very specific question and am asking for experiences is all :slight_smile: I like the birth control analogy though, good point!

Simkie, she is by Gotcha Gold out of a Pleasant Tap mare and by a Forty Niner stallion. Her dam is by Northern Afleet. Never Bend is further back on dam side. What is your opinionated mare’s breeding??

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Totally agree that some horses take longer than others but after a year she is absolutely expected to accept a rider (other than me) at the walk and trot without throwing a temper tantrum every single time she is asked to move off the leg. It is not like she is being asked to go up a level in any discipline. She is not currently showing. It is not too much to ask of her at this point for acceptance. She is not being asked anything outrageous, just to come through and ACCEPT. She is not inherently dangerous, she is not a bucker, does not rear, her worst trick in the beginning was the spin she did as a really nasty evasion which as I said is nearly eliminated now (took me two falls from that to figure out how to get through it). She broncs around, she “thinks” backwards - she sucks back and gets a hump in her back, will stick her head between her legs to try and evade the bit and when that does not work she will throw her head up so high she can hit you in the face with it. She pins her ears and is even known to squeal at people under saddle. Again, she does get through the tantrums eventually but it is not an easy go at the start.

Starpattern, she is on SmartPak Ultra which is magnesium, B12, and tryptophan. This definitely did improve her behavior for me last summer and I have since kept her on it. It took the edge off just enough that she was not scooting around every single turn to try and get away from me. I think this was key in her learning relaxation.

Thanks Scribbler! It sure is difficult for these horses to earn a reputation at the track haha. I never did consider her inherently dangerous though. It probably would have been wise to heed the warnings but I just saw something in that wild but sweet eye of hers. While any horse can be dangerous and the behaviors sure could put us in some tricky spots in the very beginning she has a strong sense of self preservation and I do not think she was ever out to kill me. She was out to be in charge, always. I have restarted a handful right from the track and she is definitely the trickiest yet. But also has the biggest, most loveable personality!

That is what my trainer thinks - that Regumate will make her less defensive so that she will be more trainable now so we can get over her resistant behaviors. It makes me feel better to hear someone else tell me that trying it will not do her any harm if it does not work out.

Here is the little diva in question. Photo is from August. She had most of the winter mostly off, just some low key w/t, hacking, and lunging to keep her busy. She has been back in full work almost two months now.

9FB4A0CE-7AB6-438D-99A9-B5991CAF52B6.jpeg

^^^^^^ Please re-read the above. This is your answer and please forgive me but I wanna spank you for calling your girl
a witch. Every time you disparage her you are re-inforcing that image in your mind and how you and others may treat her.

She sounds like the kind of horse who, when she matures a little more, will be the best horse you will ever have. I’m a firm believer that the smart ones who make me work a little harder or make me think a little more eventually become fantastic
mounts. Especially the mares. Win them over with fair but firm love and you have a partner for life. They will move
mountains for you.

So please just slow down with your expectations of her and be more patient and listen a little more to her.
She doesn’t need chemicals for hormones. Although Vitamin B1 and Magnesium are natural for nerves and muscle.
She sounds like a wonderful horse and you by yourself are on the right track. Ditch the trainers who fight with her.
She’s still a baby with a baby mind. Cut her some slack.

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