Rehoming a challenging horse | with 1 yr update

[Edre]

Assuming that everything has been done to eliminate the possibility of injury/physical discomfort:

I think that yes, moving a horse like this is possible - and not irresponsible, if you do it right. It seems as if you’re completely open about what his behavior is so that’s already in your favor. It’s clear that you want to set this horse up for success with someone else (and set that person up for success as well).

I’m an amateur rider. My horse, who recently passed, was not amateur friendly. For another rider, he was easily a dangerous horse to ride. For me (and my trainer) we knew what was coming, how to anticipate it, and could ride through it. Likewise, my trainer’s horse is savagely unforgiving of an amateur ride (and he sounds more in line with your guy). I can ride him without too much of an issue because of my extensive familiarity with his behavior and my experience with riding through things with this horse before.

“Is this horse dangerous?” - you identify the caveat that all horses are dangerous. Great place to start. At that point, it’s all about risk assessment. There are some amateurs who have grown up with hard rides. For them, the horses they ride aren’t necessarily more dangerous because they have the education and experience to manage it. For another amateur without that degree of feel, awareness, or experience, the horse might be more dangerous. “How dangerous is this horse?” is always a question whose answer I think really is dictated by “How good is the rider?”

Ultimately: I would look at an experienced amateur who maybe wants to look at being more competitive - and one who works very closely with a trainer. Insist on trial rides (both the prospective new home AND their trainer) to make sure all parties are comfortable with the situation. If possible, replicate the situations that your horse reacts most strongly to so they can see what it is (and maybe with the trainer on, so the trainer can assess if this is viable for their client).

I don’t necessarily think you’re dead in the water with rehoming this horse - but I do think there’s steps you should take to ensure everyone’s all on the same page with what the problems are, and completely comfortable with managing them.

[Winding_Down]

@Jealoushe

I’ve been there, I went the euthanasia route, because my guy became dangerous and was seemingly getting worse with time. I broke my leg really badly, and then after that he became difficult to handle on the ground too. He won almost all the events he entered, so he was surely talented but in the end it was not worth the risk of keeping or trying to rehome him. I did everything under the sun, vet, saddles, chiro, massage etc etc and never had much change. I gave him 5 years of a pampered life and he has that to remember. To be honest I have never regretted my decision.

, I know we don’t agree on much and have had our disagreements. But what you write above really does bring tears to my eyes. I also had to put a horse down once, but he was one of many and not a heart horse. I put him down after ruling out everything under the sun and after a very reputable cowboy took him and then called me the next day from the hospital. It was still terribly difficult and painful to put him down. <sigh> <horses> I can only imagine how much more painful that would be if he had the THE horse for any length of time.

[halt]

I thought about this thread last night while I was on a hack, it was kind of dark and my gelding was being looky but not spooky. It got me to thinking about how well horses see in the dark which in turn made me think about vision loss in horses. It reminded me of a horse at the barn we had that was unpredictable about the entrance of the indoor, especially if a horse was standing near the door. Sometimes he could be funny about a horse passing him on the crossties. He used to bolt out of the blue sometimes. His owner did a lot of work with him and involved an opthalmologist (sp?) and it turned out he was almost completely blind.

Something to think about, sometimes its surprising how well they can cope with vision loss to the point where they hardly show any signs at all…

[gardenie]

“This issue has spanned several saddles, including his 2 current ones which were fit to him. It is more situational I think–he does it in heavy horse traffic (like warm-ups) or when overstimulated/spooked.”

I agree with you that sending this horse on is not in his best interest nor the person you would send him to. But I still think that you have not figured out what the pain driver is in this case… The more stress situations bring huge tension to his nervous system and the underlying pain gets too hard to handle. Stoic horses are wonderful until they just can’t take it anymore. If you have any way to get to Dr. Newton of Rood and Riddle you might find a way to rid this horse of his problem. Otherwise I am on board with it’s better to euthanize than send him on. He’s just enough of a good boy that someone will keep pressurizing him until he can’t take it anymore and he will hurt somebody when he finally does blow his top enough.

[Ruth0552]

I was going to say he might work out as a hunt horse for an aggressive rider but given the new information about the episodes being triggered by overstimulation/lots of horses I think that rules that out!

So… he never does this at home or in a quiet setting? Or he will if he gets spooked?

Sounds like an ideal home would be with a non-competing rider that mostly wants to do ring work. He sounds like a homebody. He wants to be at home in his own little world and not be confronted with anything else- and certainly there are ways to build a horse’s confidence off the farm and in stressful situations but I don’t think every horse is made for that, just like humans.

[Centuree]

An interesting thread to follow and not an uncommon problem. I think in some ways, horses are like people. Certain people cannot handle certain situations and become overstimulated and are not able to continue functioning normally within that situation. As Ruth0552 explained, sounds like your guy just wants that quiet at-home atmosphere. Though with a pro or very skilled amateur rider (such as yourself), you can “get the job done” though doesn’t sound like fun! My first opinion is go with your gut and do what you feel you need to do.

I personally do not think its wrong to try and find a home given you have provided full-disclosure of his behaviour and you feel the next rider is fully competent. If you’re worried about “further down the road”, put in a right of first refusal clause, etc. Yes, horses do slip through the cracks, but I have always managed to stay connected to homes where I have sold my horses, I have even gone to shows to watch them compete with new owners. It is possible to keep in touch to make sure said horse doesn’t wind up on the trailer headed for the slaughter or in the wrong hands. For example, I have a 20 year old one-eyed Tb gelding, no longer homed with me, that I visit every year. I also constantly remind his owner that I would be happy to have him back at any time should she decide she no longer wants him. With the internet and social media, it is very easy to keep a light connection to make sure our horsey buddies are well-taken care of.

[evntr95]

As the owner of a rehomed horse, I think it can be done. I’m an ambitious adult amateur in my late 20s with dreams of a CCI* and maybe intermediate, experience through prelim, a ton of patience, the ability to bounce when I do get unseated, and a budget of about zero. All of those are what led me to respond to an ad on the Facebook group OTTB Connect when my guy came up and I was casually looking for my next horse.

Like you, the owners were very open that the horse is/was borderline dangerous. They weren’t super specific about his behavior, but they were quite clear that he had a rear and a buck under saddle and I figured out pretty quick that his go-to on the ground was his lightning-fast back legs. I tried him once before returning with a trailer to take him home. Our basic agreement states that I can’t sell him, but in exchange for that, they’ll take him back any time for any reason with no questions asked. I’m not in the business to sell horses, but I’m also not in the business to retire all the things (I already have 1 horse for life), so it’s perfect for me.

So far on my end it has worked out pretty well. The guy is SO my type and I ride him fairly well on the flat and over fences. He definitely has his challenges and I have seriously asked myself what the heck am I doing more than once, but so far it’s gone well enough and I have either solved the problems or dealt with them to the extent that I’ve opted to continue forward with him. He’s wicked intelligent and quite athletic such that he’s a really fun horse for me. I might be overly optimistic, but I’m hoping that the challenges he presents will be worthwhile and it will pay off in the long run.

[eventingalter2]

Thanks all for the additional insights–really appreciate everyone’s thoughts. These have helped my thinking a lot.

A couple more answers:

• Yes he is so much better with my trainer. Not that he’s never bucked with him, but my trainer is fantastic at riding him through it, doesn’t fear the escalation, has impeccable timing. He would absolutely thrive with a ride like that, but pros who are paid to ride horses nicer than that all day aren’t likely to be my target audience. He has had a few months of pro training here and there which was awesome, but didn’t fully get us over the hump.
• I’m not an inexperienced ammy, have evented 20 years, trained multiple horses from the track to prelim, but have never been as confident with ground issues, and at this point life changes are taking me away from the challenging horses I used to seek. I feel guilty in this sense, as I have changed more than he has.
• He has had quite a lot of diagnostic work in the last 5 years (x-rays, Lyme/ulcer work-ups, bodywork, 2nd and 3rd opinions from excellent vets . . . one said his back is “exceptional” for a TB). It’s always possible I’m missing something, I know first hand that back pain and diagnostics often don’t map well (they can bone scan, xray ok, not respond to therapies and still have some pain, etc.) I retired such a horse because I was certain he was in pain, this one doesn’t give that sense but anything is possible.

The more I think about it, the more I think the question with him is who would be drawn to him. I’m guessing either someone wanting to flip him (ethically, because they think they can fix him, or unethically because they think they can misrepresent him) or someone for whom the behavioral challenges seem more appealing than completely green, who would prefer him to a 3 yo coming off the track (so eventing now is a priority).

I also talk myself in circles as to what is really too dangerous to rehome, what is a cautious giveaway, what is a sale to “experienced rider only.” There feel like so many gray areas . . .

[Gestalt]

The past few years I’ve come to realize that many of the bad horse behaviors I’ve either seen or dealt with have been cured by … the trainers that have learned their trade from the likes of Buck Brannaman, Mark Raschid,Tom Dorrance, etc. Do you have anyone in your area that has this type of expertise. not the pepperoni’s or their ilk

It could be pain that becomes uncontrollable when the horse is upset too. I understand the tight spot you are in, I think we all do here on coth, so whatever you end up doing you won’t be judged harshly. You’re in the situation, that makes you the best judge of that situation. Best of luck, and try not to beat yourself up.

[Interstellar]

I think with the right match it can work out really well.

I was given a mare for free last January. She had fox hunted, jumped around courses, and done some evening. Her reputation was SO terrible that they just kept dropping the price father and farther with no interest. I saw her original (and very blunt yet funny ad) and liked the look of her but wasn’t looking to spend money on another horse. Months later a horse friend of mine was boarding in the same place as her and recommended she give the mare to me. Without ever riding her before, just a visit to see her where I got “that feeling” that I don’t get about many horses, I said I wanted her. I got her for free. She was known to be a total b*tch to other horses (she is but she’s getting much better about learning she can’t act that way), bit people (a nasty bite too, not a nip), bucked, had broken her owner’s wrist, was out of control, and used to be led around with a lip chain (she’d run you over without ever noticing and there was not much even a crop would do to get her off you). She has taken a LOT of retraining for bad riding, horrible manners, and backwards training but I am SO lucky to have her. She has come a long way over this last year. We still have much farther to go but I’m so happy with her. She LOVES jumping, will ALWAYS jump the fence, is super smart, and has so much heart for jumping. She now has ground manners, ties wonderfully, can be lead around with just my hand under her cheek, and is finally at the point where she doesn’t plow around on her front end leaning on the bit and is starting to really engage her hind and lift in the front. I really just think her and the owner were not a match. Because she really has taken care of me and hasn’t tried any of what she used to do before with me. She’s RID x Arab so I think that Arab half of her gives her her sassy fire.

I’d scope out the people who come to look at him. See how they get along and ask about their plans. And heck even if they only get him for a project to sell later, if he can be fixed up and sold to someone else, I don’t see one issue with that.

[173north]

I think rehoming him is doable if you find the right person.

Horses with situational bad behavior, where it is predictable and therefore avoidable to a certain extent, can be managed by people willing to put in the effort. I know one jumper who is a saint at home, even in a busy ring, and when in the show ring, but completely loses his marbles in a crowded warm-up ring at a show. Maybe he got in a crash once. If you avoid the warm-up and get creative he’s a great partner and wins everything, but a lot of folks don’t want to deal with the hassle. He’s essentially unsellable because of this, and when he was ready to step down from the big jumpers, his owner gave him to a trainer friend to use for her clients with a clause that she’d take him back any time. Horse is happy as a clam, has a huge fan club, and is still showing and doing great.

I know another who has a vicious buck but only going toward home, over a big oxer, late in the day. (Probably physical but even excellent vets have never gotten to the bottom of it.) So that situation is avoided - never schooled at home, and if it comes up at a show they’ll scratch.

Neither are perfect situations, but lots of ambitious riders will put up with some quirks - even scary quirks - to be able to sit on a competitive horse. Your best bet would probably be a young or local pro, or a YR - especially if he can go 1*. Just because pros sit on a lot of nice horseflesh doesn’t mean they can afford the same kind of ride as their clients.

I would probably not sell him outside of your area or circle of contacts, as you need to keep an eye on him - this is the kind of horse that can end up in a bad situation if he gets sold to someone who doesn’t know his deal. I would be nervous about selling him at all, honestly, as no clause can really stop someone from selling him on. Could you lend him or long-term lease him to a trusted friend, take him back when he’s ready to retire and pop him in a field? Do you know a trainer with an ambitious client who doesn’t have 1* horse money? At least that way, he’s off your feed bill and you know where he is.

[kmwines]

Don’t think it was to the extreme of your guy but my now semi retired guy never went well in crowds. We did H/J so we just didn’t school in the morning anymore when the ring was busy. And I learned how to have my head on a swivel at all times to prevent an explosion. We got excused from our hunter under saddle class at the Southeast Regional 4-H show when somebody ran up his butt.
And he’s still spooky/reactive at times. He’s now 21 (22 in January) and when moving him to a different part of the farm these past few months, I’ve had to get on and then immediately trot/canter to avoid the potential explosion. Granted, I’ve never considered him dangerous as his explosions have never been to the point of blind bucking/taking off where I thought he would hurt himself.

But with full disclosure, somebody may be interested in him and willing to take him and his issues on if he’s talented. Is there anyone in the area who you would consider offering a short free lease with vet bill splits and you pay for a month of lessons with the trainer who he does well with to determine if they’re a good match?

What does your trainer say about selling him?

[CindyCRNA]

My TB was a challenging horse when he was younger and my current purchase is a handful. While I see straight thru my 2, the average rider (non-eventer) would find them a bit much to handle. One person trash is anothers treasure.

[CindyCRNA]

@Marrissa

I think with the right match it can work out really well.

I was given a mare for free last January. She had fox hunted, jumped around courses, and done some evening. Her reputation was SO terrible that they just kept dropping the price father and farther with no interest. I saw her original (and very blunt yet funny ad) and liked the look of her but wasn’t looking to spend money on another horse. Months later a horse friend of mine was boarding in the same place as her and recommended she give the mare to me. Without ever riding her before, just a visit to see her where I got “that feeling” that I don’t get about many horses, I said I wanted her. I got her for free. She was known to be a total b*tch to other horses (she is but she’s getting much better about learning she can’t act that way), bit people (a nasty bite too, not a nip), bucked, had broken her owner’s wrist, was out of control, and used to be led around with a lip chain (she’d run you over without ever noticing and there was not much even a crop would do to get her off you). She has taken a LOT of retraining for bad riding, horrible manners, and backwards training but I am SO lucky to have her. She has come a long way over this last year. We still have much farther to go but I’m so happy with her. She LOVES jumping, will ALWAYS jump the fence, is super smart, and has so much heart for jumping. She now has ground manners, ties wonderfully, can be lead around with just my hand under her cheek, and is finally at the point where she doesn’t plow around on her front end leaning on the bit and is starting to really engage her hind and lift in the front. I really just think her and the owner were not a match. Because she really has taken care of me and hasn’t tried any of what she used to do before with me. She’s RID x Arab so I think that Arab half of her gives her her sassy fire.

I’d scope out the people who come to look at him. See how they get along and ask about their plans. And heck even if they only get him for a project to sell later, if he can be fixed up and sold to someone else, I don’t see one issue with that.

What a great post!

[drsmcc]

If the problems are all in horse traffic, he may be fine in a non-competitive situation. You would have to judge that one. Just keep in mind that not everyone feels compelled to compete. Certainly I have ridden a couple of horses with serious problems in crowded warm-up rings. One horse was labeled “dangerous” before I started riding him. He was not the least bit evil, but very quick and athletic, and had a true phobia about oncoming horses. He had 180’d out from under an awful lot of riders. But he was utterly honest, brave, and talented. I had to be vigilant about traffic in warm-up rings, but he had a good career. My other experience was with a mare who had been seriously t-boned in a warm-up ring as a youngster, and she was not above using that genuine nervousness as an excuse for some airs above the ground, at one phase in her career. The explosiveness was a training issue that we got past, but I never enjoy warm-up arenas.

Neither of these horses were bad enough to be retired from competition for the issue, but in both cases, had it been a little worse, they still would have made great riding horses for non-competition riders.

[Rainier]

I have a friend with a horse that has really similar issues … situational horse-traffic related anxiety/overstimulation. She has had success working with a natural horsemanship trainer with some type of flagging training. The trainer rode her horse in an arena with other horses that were free and running around. I wasn’t there for the training, but I think it’s some type of desensitization training for this issue that may be worth looking into before throwing in the towel?

[Finn_Dixie]

I’m afraid I do not have much advice, but I’d like to offer your the support of a stranger! I have a gelding who has similar reactions when overstimulated. His answer is to rear/strike rather than violently buck - dangerous all the same. I understand your frustrations and applaud your efforts to protect his quality of life.

Obviously injury/illness/saddle fit/etc. could contribute. Ground work might help. Nothing you don’t already know to consider or rule out… I will tell you that my horse has a good working relationship with our vet/chiro, has frequent saddle checks, and would run circles around Parelli. He is still unpredictable. Shortly after moving to a new barn, a fellow boarder mentioned he seemed pretty unflappable. I chuckled and thirty seconds later he was halfway across the very large arena because… well, because. He’s the horse I have. I adore him. I can deal with him. He’s stuck with me and frankly, I’m likely stuck with him because I’m not sure he’s marketable. Even if he were, he is a liability in the wrong hands.

[OverandOnward]

You’ve had some intense experiences with this horse, and have had him long enough to develop some very firm opinions about him and how he relates to being ridden. Be careful not to lock yourself into one train of thought about him that is really just from your own perspective. As has already been pointed out, one person’s ‘very challenging ride’ is another person’s favorite all-time heart horse.

What does your local eventing community know of him? People who pay attention to the rides at clinics and horse trials may be more aware of him than you know. I would be looking for someone who already has a good idea of what he is like, has the tool box and is comfortable with his behaviors.

I’m not sure I would ever advertise a horse like this one. I would not want to be fielding inquiries and explaining endlessly to perfect strangers who are hearing what they want to hear, and may or may not understand a word of it. I would not feel comfortable sending him off into the wilderness with a stranger, regardless of what connection they seemed to have after a few rides.

I’d be passing the word around the portion of the eventing community who are veteran horse people and strong riders, and then be patient. It is amazing what solutions will find their way to you, when it would be very difficult for you to go out and find them in the wild.

[ThirdCharm]

My first Intermediate horse was an explosive bucker who put her previous owner in the ER with a punctured lung. I was a lower level pro with more ability than money. I owned her for about eight years, during which time she only canned me twice. She was always a tough ride, but she only managed to dump me twice, and after about 2 years of chiro, accupuncture and massage therapy she pretty much quit. Her back was majorly jacked up. She then served as an ammy dressage horse and is now a mostly retired broodmare who lets her owners 5yo putter around on her.

The next mare I bought, the dam of my next Intermediate horse and my foundation mare, was a bucker I was offered because I survived the first one. LOL.

Jennifer

[eventingalter2]

Thank you all for the additional thoughts (and stranger support, Finn Dixie!)

173north I appreciate the insight that whether a quirk has a physical basis or not, it can often be managed by people willing to make concessions (as a YR I had a horse that didn’t do xc warm-up at all–he just trotted around the parking lot and into the box . . . but I was 17 then)

I am not totally opposed to natural horsemanship type training, have researched a little bit. If anyone has suggestions in Area 2 let me know.

I am trying to spread the word within my horse circles. OandO you are correct he probably doesn’t enjoy a great reputation in my area, especially among those who know him well, but there may be other observers I am less close to that would at least then understand what they were undertaking.

As for my trainers, one feels like his odds of ending up in a bad place situation vs a good one are too high, and doesn’t recommend rehoming. The other says to post him free. I’m trying to find the in between–to network more carefully.

I really do appreciate all the stories and insights.