Reiners: AITA?

[2DogsFarm]

Caveat:
I am no Fount of Knowledge re: any Western discipline.
Apologies as this is going to be long.

I have a friend who competed Reiners for years along with her DH. Not World Class, but up there.
They also bred QH & now widowed, she has boarders.
Newcomers to her barn are a couple where Dad allegedly rode Barrel horses (in his youth), Mom is afraid of them & 2 girlkids - 13 & 7 - aspire to… Well, since they moved in (about a year ago) they have:
*Bought a horse from a local guy known to be a bit on the shady side who has Reiners.
Supposed to be WP for both kids.
*When horse turned out to be “too much” for older kid, they traded for another from the same guy. This horse is a retired Reiner & a Saint.
BO showed me a video of older kid asking horse to spin. In her words kid rides like a sack of potatoes. Horse was doing The Worlds Most Careful SloMo Spin to keep kid on.
Meanwhile Barn Drama Llama has let younger kid ride her 16+yo “mustang” (Reservation-bred).
BO says this kid is the better rider of the 2.
Kids decide they want to ride & compete Reiners.
BO is asked to train them & agrees, but kids don’t pay attention to her instructions, so after a single session she bows out.
Kids now training with the guy who sold them the horses.
The only show kids have done was last year’s County Fair. Both did WP classes & no prizes were won.
Mustang spooked in Halter class & ran over younger kid (no lasting damage).
This year both kids decided to enter the Open Reining at Fair (never a big class - maybe 6 competitors) - & someone (trainer? kids?) decided horses should be shod in Sliding Plates. Parents & Llama agreed.
W-T-EFF?
Pricy shoe job for kids yet to have any sort of skillset in the discipline or compete in any show.
BO suggested a local show they could go with classes geared to kids at this level.
Nope.
Horses can’t be turned out in the shoes.
Kids also want to enter the non-Reining classes, so horses will be wearing these shoes in this year’s iffy footing in the Fair arena.
Above has all taken place in a little over a year & is all background for my question.

Another friend - self-professed QH Expert who hasn’t ridden in decades (now drives) is of the opinion that putting these shoes on the horses is fine.
“Everyone has to start somewhere”
My thoughts are no need to buy the Hat until you’ve had some mileage with the Cattle.
I argue that it’s like taking a very first Dressage lesson in a double bridle.
She maintains No Harm to kids or horses.
FWIW: BO/Reiner disagrees.

So, Reiners of COTH, AITA?

[Foxglove]

Reiner shoes are not meant to be worn in turn out. However, I can’t see the harm to the horse wearing the shoes in the Fair Arena (having no idea what the footing is like there).

For your own peace of mind, don’t get involved unless there is a clear IMMINENT danger to child or horse (or parent). I have seen some pretty bad shoeing jobs, poorly trimmed hooves, and inappropriate shoes in the 30+ years I was involved with the local 4-H club (about 200 members, 400 horses). Johnny riding grandpa’s draft in a class wearing scotch bottom shoes happened more than once, as did horses that had clearly never seen a farrier. As a leader, advisor, one can only suggest --no rule bans a horse in the ring unless the JUDGE declares the horse leave. Meanwhile, what I considered unsafe happened. (My biggest gripe was a lady who for years --and still does-- picks up OTTBs at the track, then sells them to 10 year olds).

Parents buy and have kids use incorrect and unsafe tack, people who call themselves “trainers” encourage unsafe practices and bits --well, as someone who has never used more than a snaffle, it’s tough to watch a kid yank around barrels on a lovely horse using a bit with 9" shanks . . .

The best thing you can do, is set a good example and only answer questions when asked directly.

I had 4 kids go through the program in the 30+ years I was involved -one was a grandkid. I learned early that actions are better than advice --peeps would see the kids being successful in their chosen discipline and a few imitated them or asked questions about who was their trainer, who was the farrier, where did we find such nice horses, how often did the girls ride, etc. etc.

You are NTAH, but urge you to stay out of the drama.
.

[Paint_Party]

I had to Google AITA. So I just learned something.

But to address your concerns…

The sliders, unless they’re Big Time sliders, won’t be an issue. When I bought my mare, she had little sliders on her hind feet because she’d just competed in reining classes. While I didn’t leave her turned out in the pasture with them, I did turn her out in her paddock and ride her as normal for a couple of weeks until the farrier came and replaced them with regular shoes.

As for the kids and the sketchy trainer, well, what are you going to do? Unfortunately, just as with all the other equine riding disciplines, there are good trainers, coaches and stewards of horses, and some (very) bad ones. Personally, I’d stay out of it unless you need to step in and say something because you see signs of abuse on the horses, like the horses have been roughly “tuned up” by this trainer guy.

The kids will either learn to sit a real sliding stop and some competition-quality spins, or they’re going to get unceremoniously dumped a few times. Eventually they may-- like many horse crazy kids before them-- find their way to a different trainer, different horses and an entirely different riding discipline. Or they could be future stars of NRHA. Time will tell. But I suggest you stay on the sidelines.

[2DogsFarm]

Thanks to both you & @goodhors for making me feel I’m not the Krazy one here.
I’m not at all involved in this Trainwreck personally. Just Aghasted every time I hear a new chapter.

[goodhors]

That would be Foxglove for the good advice, not me! We also did 4H with kids with all kinds of horses, tack, experiences. You just keep your mouth shut unless asked for help or needing to stop unsafe actions. Especially hard because I was on the Equine Board running things.

My DD learned a lot in her 4H experience of 10 years, watching others and getting some lessons from her Leader. As she got better she expanded her class list to compete in. Solid, calm, older horse learned with her. He had never run gymkhana games before! LOVED it with his special games tack. He did Western, English, jumped. Very reliable over fences with his previous jumping training and competition with my son in Pony Club. The “lead by example, so winner get copied” is terrific advice in 4H. Most kids see the soft handling, SUBTLE cues working better for the winners on nice-but-not-big-money-horses, than the jerk and spur methods of others on non-winning GOOD, EXPENSIVE horses.

For us it seemed no one locally knew how to train progressively for jumping. The kids just aimed for the fence, hoping horse would go over after practicing jumping a couple weeks before Fair! Horse survival (with or without rider) at the most basic level, trying to understand what riders wanted done. Kids went from small jumps to 3ft jumps in a couple sessions, over badly made jumps. No extra filler rails or material. Just 2 standards and a rail at most heights! They made me cringe seeing the expected halts, runouts, crashing fences, fallen riders!

The hunter classes were just taken for the extra points possible if they placed, going towards Hi-Point trophy. Kids just brushed off their rounds if things went poorly. None seemed to consider changing ways to improve in their other non-Fair jumping practice times. The mindset was keep jumping until horse “gets it.” Then horse will be fine at Fair.

You want to help, both kids and horses, but folks consider free advice to be worth what they paid for it. Usually not worth the aggravation to try helping improve them. Every suggestion will be resisted. Sorry, not helpful.

[Scribbler]

Good advice.

If the BO can’t stand it any longer it’s on her to evict the newbie boarders.

Let her tell you funny stories but don’t let it become the only thing you talk about because that will just make both of you too obsessed.

It’s true, the crappiest paid trainer has more authority than the best free advice from an ammie.

[2DogsFarm]

The O/F classes you described are what I saw here nearly 20yrs ago at Fair.
So many teeth being floated it resembled an Equine Dental Convention!
Thankfully, the O/F classes were taken off the showbill, never to return.

I really don’t give a fig for how these overprivileged, undereducated kids end up with their horses.
But I do feel for the horses stoically putting up with their misuse.
The clueless parents I’d like to bitchslap into next week.

& I thank @Paint_Party for letting me know the Sliders aren’t as damaging as I feared. Just useless expense for the idjit parents.

[2DogsFarm]

Thanks.
BO will gladly take their money & turn a blind eye.
She doesn’t gossip to all & sundry, but knows I can listen & have enough horsesense to keep it “in the vault”
COTH is my sounding board when I don’t have enough info or need to ask about something I’ve been told that sounds NQR.
As long as the horses aren’t being mistreated, she’s okay. & So am I.

[Aces_N_Eights]

I don’t have much to comment on the situation other than I will say, if the kids can’t or won’t take direction than I can almost promise the parents won’t either.
Ask me how I know.

I don’t show reiners but from a cow horse perspective, the sliders will save that horse’s hocks and stifles if they are stopping in him in less than ideal ground. Especially given it’s the local county fair in my experience. Stopping a horse in heavy, uneven, sticky ground is hard on them, if he has sliders it’ll help him get through it better. Different story if the ground is super fast, which I seriously doubt.

Mine are turned out 24/7 with sliders. But they are usually just 3/4 or 7/8 with a short trailer. And because of showing cow horse, we drill and tap for caulks as well so that’s an option if the turnout situation is less than ideal.

[2DogsFarm]

Thanks for the info.
I guess the best I can hope is they’re shod as you described.
Fair generally drags the heck out of the arena for the Reiners. Then waters it.
Making it deep & muddy.
My Mini Driving class used to go in right after Reiners & the footing sucked for the minis.
Deep enough so I’d politely told judges I wouldn’t ask my mini to back if he struggled taking that first step.

BO told me she will only turnout the 2 in runouts, not her larger pastures.
I cannot imagine these maroons would have the knowhow to use caulks

[Belmont]

Nothing to add other than you can absolutely turn out in sliders. When ours are in work, they are in sliders and get turned out in their sliders.

Also, a lot of people will put on sliders to try and over compensate for training a horse to properly stop. Whether that is the case or not… idk. However, if they are going to be stopping and doing “Reiner” things at the horse show, sliders probably aren’t going to the worst thing, especially if the ground is not the best. Now - sliders can also be too fast on certain ground and horses can get scared. But hopefully trainer knows what they are doing.

[roseymare]

@Belmont

sliders can also be too fast on certain ground a

There a horse show legend about the old mid 1980’s Versatility class at Congress where a very well known Pro kept sliders on for the barrel race and basically asked for a stop and then just turned around the barrel.
I’ve been told it’s true by people I trust but then again you know how horse show legends go!

[Montanas_Girl]

As others have pointed out, sliders are not just about “manufacturing” a longer slide. They help protect the horse’s hocks and stifles, especially in iffy footing.

I have one horse in (baby) sliders. She lives out 24/7 on a very hilly pasture and has had no trouble at all. It helps that she’s a teenaged Arab and therefore is very smart and self-preserving. When I worked at a university with a large equestrian team, all but a handful of the (younger/sillier) reiners also lived out 24/7 in sliders with no issues - other than, when one lost a shoe, it was a lot more expensive than a plain keg to replace.