Relaxing Groundwork for the Baby Wanna-Be Bullfighter

[katmarcra]

Replying to all y’all—thank you for the advice! I’m on the road right now and have only been able to skim. I’ll do a deeper read when I’m home

I will redirect to my original question though—what trainers/professionals do you all look to for guidance on this? It sounds like Warwick Schiller is pretty high on the list, plus the California bridle horse folks. Is there anyone else I should add? My intention of posting this was to build my library of reference trainers for training ideas more than to get specific advice on specific training moments.

Edited to add: I find it a lot easier to learn when I can control the flow of information (like not turning a hose on full blast) and when I’m able to vet training philosophies pretty fully and see the larger picture instead of just a short text post. That’s why I’m asking for reference trainers rather than asking for training advice. I hope y’all get where I’m coming from

[Scribbler]

I did a couple clinics with a regional groundwork trainer and then honestly it just came fairly easily working with my main horse, then experimenting with some other green horses from my coach. I got a couple sessions clicker training from a local coach, and talked to a horse behaviorist once.

I think the main thing is to be totally plugged into your horse from the moment you enter the barn, and I do think you need to work at liberty at least some of the time. If your arena doesn’t seem secure for a galloping horse, put a halter and lead rope on, just do quiet groundwork with the rope tossed over her neck.

Do things like teach her to whoa and stand while you walk away then come when you whistle. Move shoulders haunch back up on minimal.cues, down to wiggling a finger. Dial down your cues so.she has to pay attention. Try clicker training for really basic things

Many broke saddle horses have learned that what happens on the ground is chaos white noise and the occasional reprimand so they don’t expect intelligent communication from.humans on the ground. When they learn ots possible it’s like a light bulb goes on and they really want to talk to you all.the time.

The overall training philosophy is learn your horse and have a sense of play. There isn’t a rigid training pyramid. You need to develop your own horsey intuition and timing.

Some newbie beginners arrive at horses with these abilities and some very good riders have no.skills on the ground and poor timing because they’ve never observed their horses except to demand they stand still in cross ties.

[Bluey]

There is a reason we started Andalusians with the standard series of tricks, spanish walk, stretch, bow, knee, lay down, sit up and stand up.
Those teach a horse to listen to you and that you have goals at the end of what you are requesting of them and those tend to calm down a horse’s mind when learning.

She may know those already, see what you have, may want to try some of that?

[Jackie_Cochran]

My “reference” guide is “The Way to Perfect Horsemanship” by Udo Burger. He also wrote the extremely useful “The Rider Forms the Horse”.

The first book taught me how to fix my problems that I had not figured out in over several decades of riding and training my own horses. Since reading this book I had some riding teachers ask me what I did when their usually resistant lesson horses obeyed me cheerfully without any fuss the first time I rode the horse.

[RedHorses]

Go back to the. beginning with Tristan if you have that access. The starter module on moving their feet a specific way. Use those movements to get her attention whenever you lose it. No matter what else is going on, if you ask for something she must respond even if the response is wrong or you needed strong cues. You can work to get the right response from lighter cues, but no response gives you nothing to work with.

I had already found this idea before I started looking at TRT. My set of movements wasn’t exactly the same cues or moves as his (very similar), but I was using them the same way - to refocus the horse in a calm, understood fashion. The horse knows the exercises, needs to focus on my cues but is still able to keep a bit of attention on whatever is worrying. Which is okay.

Doing the known movements, with increasingly lighter cues and faster changes between moves helps the horse by giving them the opportunity to realize the worrying thing is not threatening them. Speed depends on the horse in the moment as moving too quickly will increase anxiety. The initial cues may have to be very strong to capture the horse’s attention, and then can be lighter and lighter.

Having a series of moves/exercises that is used regularly (every time in the beginning) provides the horse with a mental place that will allow them to relax and think about things instead of just reacting. We can’t tell a horse to relax, and trying to do so when they’re anxious is a losing proposition. The moves/exercises need to be something the horse can do easily, and difficult enough that they must pay attention to what they’re doing/you’re asking. Eventually the horse will associate the set of moves with “it’s fine, nothing to worry about” and will relax as they do the first moves.

I used bits of TRT and Warwick Schiller and what my very anxious QH taught me to work with my younger horse. I wish I had known this stuff when I had my QH.

I realize you’re not asking for training advice and my response strays close. The exercises you get from TRT or WS or anyone else aren’t going to provide the results you want until you figure out how to use them as tools. in various situations, and modify them to suit your horse. It took me a while to figure out how to apply WS’s rabbit theory to my horse, and longer before I saw more than small improvements, but sticking with it was worth the effort.

[Pezanos]

Katy Negranti works with Warwick Schiller but I find her program someone easier to follow. It is broken down in a more step-by-step way. It worked great with my ex-bullfighter Lusitano. I did not find the TRT stuff all that helpful, and I like Warwick Schiller a lot but for my Luso only the newer “below threshold” stuff was effective. You will fry their brains with some of the older “in your face” methods.

[Scribbler]

@Pezanos

Katy Negranti works with Warwick Schiller but I find her program someone easier to follow. It is broken down in a more step-by-step way. It worked great with my ex-bullfighter Lusitano. I did not find the TRT stuff all that helpful, and I like Warwick Schiller a lot but for my Luso only the newer “below threshold” stuff was effective. You will fry their brains with some of the older “in your face” methods.

Absolutely. You dont shout at a Lusitano or shake plastic bags at them or even shake the lead rope.

When their attention is on you it’s not needed and freaks them out. When their attention is elsewhere they won’t even notice.

[luvmyhackney]

My favorite is the TRT stuff but Warwick Schiller has interesting things in it. I take what works for me from both. I have hackney pony and ASB so not exactly deadheads.

I’ve just noticed that the people that follow WS path remind me a lot of people that follow Parelli (sp) and never move past ground work.

I did find it was helpful not to quiet my communication to much but basically make my horse think that his crazy person is loud and does stupid things but he is always safe.

[signmypapyrus]

@luvmyhackney

.I’ve just noticed that the people that follow WS path remind me a lot of people that follow Parelli (sp) and never move past ground work.

I know a few people who are really into the new Warwick Schiller stuff-- I like his older stuff, but not the new stuff-- and they are very similar to Parelli followers. You bring up something important, too: take from a trainer what you can. That said, be mindful of trainers that espouse only one method that will instantly fix a horse and then try to sell you something.

To the OP, keep us updated! And I hope your trainer can help you out with your mare.

[katmarcra]

I really like this idea! Knowing a bit of her history, I’m pretty sure she didn’t come to me with any trick training under her belt (and knowing her, I suspect she would have offered it to me at some point by now if she had), so I will look in to ways to get started with that.

[katmarcra]

Thanks! I’ll add that to my list

[katmarcra]

Thanks! I have mostly used what I see in TRT’s first few videos - moving the feet, etc. She has done very well with that, and that’s helped us with leading calmly when she gets pretty hot. It’s good to know TRT and Warwick have been helpful for you!

[katmarcra]

I’ll look into Katy Negranti! From a quick look at her website, it seems like she breaks things down really well. It’s reassuring to hear that someone else with a bullfighter-line Lusitano (or in your case, an ex-bullfighter lusitano) is have some of the same experiences with TRT. Would you mind if I messaged you to talk more about what worked/didn’t work for you?

[katmarcra]

Thanks! I definitely am looking at groundwork both as its own art and as part of a journey that includes a good bit of riding too. I’ll keep that in mind about WS.

I do really appreciate the note about not quieting communication too much - that’s one of the things I like about TRT. He seems to get that the world is a place full of random s*** going on and your horse needs to be able to self-regulate in the face of things they’ve never encountered before. The trick for me is figuring out how to teach Miss Mare that self-regulation!

[katmarcra]

It’s interesting - someone else mentioned liking newer, but not older WS! I’m definitely trying to cobble together bits and pieces from different methods.

I’ve taken lessons in the past from trainers with the “we’re right, everyone else is wrong” mindset and drinking that koolaid for a year and then realizing they were, in fact, mostly wrong has made me very skeptical of anyone who is branding themselves as the person who knows all the answers. The best trainers I’ve had are ones that are open to me learning from other sources and are still learning themselves!

My current trainer is great and has a lot of lusitano experience, but my goals right now are a bit “yes and” to what she’s teaching - that is to say, I love her very biomechanics/dressage training, but I’m more an all arounder - I want to take what I learn from her, and also take from other sources, and eventually do all the things! I’ve had to cut back on lessons lately due to financial reasons (going to every other week instead of every week) and so I’m trying to experiment with other training styles as an economical way to fill in that gap and to allow me to focus on the areas where my trainer shines (riding, formal in-hand work) during the lessons instead of doing super short WS/TRT style groundwork things with her.

[Pezanos]

Sure, no problem.

[TwiSedai]

@katmarcra

rather than a bunch of cookies and rejoicing and “yayayay!!!”

I will add, this doesn’t really help any horse unless they are very unreactive and need more energy. To do clicker training properly, especially with this kind of horse, you reward quietly when they relax along with when they do the behavior you want. You have good suggestions for other methods I really like, but if you are interested in incorporating the positive reinforcement too, highly recommend checking out Shawna Karrasch. She is the one who pretty much brought clicker training into the horse world, and has lots of good material that has added valuable tools to my training toolbox. I have a 6/7 year old super-greenie I’m bringing along, and along with my usual repertoire of training methods, I’ve been incorporating a bit of stuff I’ve learned from Shawna and it’s been making a difference.

Side note: I’m actually not a huge clicker training person, I don’t like most of the stuff I’ve seen with it from the social media woo-woo people, and how cult-like it can be. That’s why I like this lady so much though, it’s more science based and she’s not “if you do anything that’s not +R only always you are abusive”, which is the only reason I decided to listen to what she had to say when my friend dragged me to a clinic of hers a couple months ago

[pluvinel]

@katmarcra

Intense and dominant is a good way to put it! She’s very self-assured, for sure. I love her attitude, but I want to help her feel like she is safe to relax a bit!

A mare is a stallion in drag. You have to respect that they are “entire” with all their hormones intact. In the wild, the lead horse in a band is a mare. The stallion’s job is to fight off intruders, but it is the head mare who decides where to go for water and forage.

A horse, any horse, will relax when that horse feels safe. A horse will feel safe when it feels it can trust the herd leader. So you need to work on you. You need to work on your mindset. No self questions. Right or wrong, but never in doubt.

I have had your horse. He taught me a lot and spoiled me for anything else. He set the bar very high for what I expect from a horse. A horse that is brave, self confident, and self-assured requires that the rider move up to his/her level.