Relaxing Groundwork for the Baby Wanna-Be Bullfighter

[katmarcra]

I’m the proud mom to a baby(ish - 6yo) Lusitano mare, and I’m trying to work on relaxation with her, particularly on the ground but also under saddle. And if not relaxation, then increase trust for both of us so we can more consistently handle stressful situations with aplomb.

I’ve tried some Tristan Tucker stuff with mixed results. Some exercises work well for her, others not so much. Part of the challenge is she’s just got a very different brain than the warmbloods I’m seeing in his videos. She definitely has her breed’s bullfighter mindset! I’m also trying some Warwick Schiller stuff which also seems to fit in some ways and not in others. I’m clicker-training-curious, but until recently Miss Mare was not very food motivated and was pretty chonky, so the clicker training I tried was not particularly effective.

Does anyone have any trainers or reference books they can particularly recommend for the baby wanna-be bullfighter? Keeping in mind she has never seen a bull in her life and hopefully never will - I mostly just want to find a training style that really works for her and capitalizes on her strengths (bravery, intelligence, alertness/awareness, self-reliance, kindness) while also giving her what she needs to unwind and be less tense in unfamiliar situations. In particular, I want her to be comfortable with trails and going other places like low-level dressage/combined competitions because that’s what I’m hoping is in the future for us.

[kaya842]

Curious what about Warwicks stuff doesn’t work for her? Are you a subscriber/ using the video library or only the free YouTube videos? I ask because I only used the free YouTube videos for a while, and though they are very helpful and educational they don’t capture the full theory/ all of the steps (meaning I really made progress with my horses when I used the video subscription).

[JB]

What exactly isn’t working? How long as you working on a given thing, and does she improve, degrade, or stay the same?

[signmypapyrus]

When you mention the “bullfighting,” do you mean she can be intense and dominant? That’s pretty normal for Lusitano horses (and even Andalusian horses). Or is she spooky?

My friend’s young Andalusian used to “cut” or try to work various items in the pasture like they were cattle. It was pretty funny to watch, but then my friend realized what she was in for (a lot of horse).

[katmarcra]

Intense and dominant is a good way to put it! She’s very self-assured, for sure. I love her attitude, but I want to help her feel like she is safe to relax a bit!

[katmarcra]

I’ve just been using the free things so far. These days I’ve been doing the 50’ trail ride, which works in perfect conditions but not if there is anything else going on at the same time. Lately, perfect conditions have been pretty few and far between, so I’m also working toward moving Miss Mare to a barn that will be more relaxed/quiet so we’re not trying to squeeze in groundwork between kids running around and tractors rolling through.

From Warwick’s videos on YouTube, it seems like a lot of his horses start from a more relaxed state than Miss Mare does. It also can be hard to get her to pay attention to what I’m doing if it’s more subtle. For instance, I’ve done some pressure point work with her. If she’s already relaxed, it works great at getting her more relaxed. If she’s busy watching the world go by, she’s completely oblivious to what I’m doing, even if I stand there with my hand on the pressure point for five minutes.

It’s good to know Warwick’s subscription packages are better! I’ll look into those and see if they’re in the budget.

[signmypapyrus]

I like Pat Puckett for helping horses become confident; he is currently training his Lusitano to become a bridle horse. I would also look at Jeff Sanders who has extensive experience with Iberian breeds and knows the temperament.
Pat’s videos are all free.

Are you a member of the IALHA? Or do you have friends with Lusitanos? They can help with the temperament.

[katmarcra]

It’s kind of a mix - see my response to @kaya842. With the TRT stuff, a lot of it is teaching them a relaxed posture to take when they encounter something scary. I can get Miss Mare to do the first step, which is yielding around and giving me space and bringing her head down when I’m just working with her and the rope, but when I expose her to something scary (plastic bag on whip, for instance), she seems to feel like she needs to puff up and intimidate the scary thing (e.g., snort like a dragon, and then try to strike at it). If I give her the chance to interact with it, she will sniff it and decide it’s maybe ok for the time being, but if the whip/bag makes one wrong move, she’s going to show it who’s boss! Generally, once her blood’s up, it’s very difficult to get her to relax again.

All that said, I’m really interested in finding a trainer with a set of videos or a reference book to use as I move forward with her. I already have a trainer I take lessons from, so this would be in conjunction with my work with my trainer. Do you have any books/trainers you recommend looking into?

[katmarcra]

Thanks! I’ll look into Pat Puckett and Jeff Sanders. My trainer breeds lusitanos so she’s a good reference as well, but since she’s offsite there’s a lot I’m doing on my own with Miss Mare which is why I’m looking for training reference/inspiration.

[CanteringCarrot]

As someone that has worked with Iberian horses, I will say part of it is building a relationship with these types. Once they have trust in you, and you’ve created a proper working partnership, that’ll lead to much improvement.

It’s important with this type that you stay cool as a cucumber. 6 is not a baby to me, it is a younger horse. A good, brave, boss mare type can make an awesome partner, for the right person and when trained correctly. Part of why she won’t let her guard down could be because she has to keep it up because she’s the “boss” or the leader, and thus has to predict, handle, and deal with situations. She’s not looking to you for any sort of guidance and seemingly doesn’t value your input. She may also always be the type that is just a bit more “on” than others, which is ok, and can have its advantages.

With this type, it’s going to take a lot of your brain power, good timing, and acknowledging any improvements even if small. It’s fine to sample different training and take what works for you.

It’s alright if you first introduce her to something new like a bag and she wants to “fight it” she is showing her natural response. If you don’t like that, it’s up to you to “edit” it. A lot of it just repetition and reward/acknowledgement as soon as they relax (literally the instant even a minute sign of relaxation occurs). The bag will get less exciting the more it becomes a regular. Once you’ve established coping tools with the bag and that’s solid, introduce something knew and take what you’ve learned or installed and see how it goes with the new thing.

With this type you don’t want to bore them, but also don’t want to over face them. It takes a good amount of feeling and sense from the handler. The more experiences you get through together, the more things will feel better. It’s a time thing, partly.

When she is “up” or defensive about something, is she being brave or doing it out of fear?

How long have you had her?

If you can channel and direct the energy, it can really be a plus for some things vs a horse that is dead to the world with no real presence.

[JB]

@katmarcra

when I expose her to something scary (plastic bag on whip, for instance), she seems to feel like she needs to puff up and intimidate the scary thing

you may be introducing a scary thing too quickly, either it itself is too scary (ie just the presence of a plastic bag), or the bag needs to be balled up and not waiving around in a stick first.

it sounds in general like you’re adding on too much in each step. Maybe not too much for another horse, but too much for her. Break down each thing you’ve tried that has “failed” into as many tiny incremental steps are you can, and start with the first one. No adding on until that one is ho-hum

@katmarcra

If she’s busy watching the world go by, she’s completely oblivious to what I’m doing, even if I stand there with my hand on the pressure point for five minutes.

First you have to do something to get her attention on you even a little, before she can 'hear" a pressure point. And until that pressure point is really ingrained into her, it’s white noise when there’s something else more interesting going on

[katmarcra]

This is really helpful! I’ve had her for almost a year now, and I do feel like things are slowly getting better. She’s much more interested in other horses than humans (though she LOVES little kids) and we had to work through a lot early in the summer when she was hormonal and they moved a very young pony into the pasture next to her - the two got very attached and I had to try a few different techniques of getting her not to race and dance back to the pasture before I settled on something like the TRT stuff.

I think moving to a quieter place will also help - right now, I think there’s so much going on that she probably feels like she has to have her guard up all the time! I know I feel that way too at my current barn, which absolutely isn’t helping. I tend toward being tense and anxious myself, so she’s definitely been teaching me a lot about controlling my body and energy.

I think she’s mostly brave, but she does get very worried sometimes, especially when she can’t see other horses.

Tuning into the right level of reward has also been tricky - going too hard on the rewards doesn’t help her stay calm at all, it almost amps her up more. I learned that the hard way when we were going through it in the summer. These days, if I’m working in hand or doing groundwork, I’m leaning into the TRT and Warwick stuff where the reward is some patting and being calm and still for a minute, to let the blood settle, rather than a bunch of cookies and rejoicing and “yayayay!!!”

I do think she will be fantastic when she matures more - my trainer thinks around 8 is when the Iberians really grow their brains. I like having a sensitive, aware horse, but having one this green is certainly challenging and new to me. But at the end of the day, I’ll be able to say, “I made her”, and she will be able to say that she made me!

[katmarcra]

Thanks! Do you have a person that you look to as a reference for that? It’s helpful to me to see example exercises that I can then work off of, especially in video format to see the interplay of the trainer’s actions and the horse’s reactions. I find it helps slow me down instead of rushing to the next step to see how others have broken things down.

[Scribbler]

I’ve been working with a Lusitano project horse. I don’t know if she will ever be safe under saddle but I have made a lot of progress on the ground.

She free longes beautifully, practically taught herself to.go on a 20 meter circle wtc on voice or hand cues. I always give her a good run before I try to work with her up close.

She loves obstacles and will do things like go between a jump standard and the arena wall if that’s an option. Also trot poles helped her open up her step.

After about a year I introduced clicker training for lateral work in hand. She’s a natural at lateral work.

Clicker really got her attention. Now when I’m working her at liberty in the outdoor arena and a rider comes by, I can call.her over to the back or middle of the arena so she doesn’t try to socialize with the other horse or start bombing around and spook them.

When I started with her she wouldn’t lead anywhere and was terrified of longe whips held by someone facing her, her go to reaction was to run backwards, hit the end of the rope, sit down and rear up a little. But as I reintroduced the longe whip as a cue and never forced her to do anything she stopped being reactive to it.

I think as with Arabians, a certain amount of puff up and prance is just a breed characteristic.

If my Paint gets as excited as an Arab or a Lusitano, you are in serious physical danger. But the hotter breeds can puff up a bit without actually knocking you over and bolting.

[kaya842]

I’ll second JB in that I think you may be expecting too much too quick or going through the motions too quickly. A big, big part of Warwicks work is slowing everything WAY down. Like I spent several days taking over an hour to tack my horse up to help her get through her anxiety (and it worked and now she sleeps instead of pawing, dancing around, showing the whites of her eyes etc). Or days where we went to the mounting block, stood there, then untracked, etc. He has lots of videos of working with very reactive horses (I believe some are on YouTube too - they are often clinic horses, not his own). If your horse is even more reactive than those (there is one where he spends over an hour working with the horse while sitting on top of a round pen panel at a clinic, can’t remember where/ which video but that horse was VERY wound up), there may be an underlying issue. The videos of his home bred young colt (Chance?) aren’t a good example of a reactive horse but ARE a testament to how it all works together.

[katmarcra]

Also @Scribbler - Wow! My horse is not nearly as reactive as what you’re both describing - this really puts things in perspective for me. That said, I am on board with slowing down and being mindful that I’m not taking things too quickly. The trick will be finding steps that are interesting enough to her to keep her engaged without going too far as to overwhelming her.

I actually don’t know if I would describe her as reactive at all - just energetic and very tuned in to what’s going on around her. She wants to do stuff and if the stuff isn’t interesting enough or doesn’t engage her meaningfully, she’s happy to ignore it in favor of something more interesting. Sometimes that’s good - she loves watching lessons when we’re taking a break during a ride or groundwork session - and sometimes that’s very unhelpful - like what I was experiencing with the pressure points. I think @CanteringCarrot hit the nail on the head about Miss Mare’s mindset. Part of the challenge is letting her know that I’m on her team and she can look to me for guidance, and that I’m worthy of being consistently focused on when we’re working together.

I’m hoping I’ll wind up somewhere in the next year or two with a round pen where I can take pivo liberty lessons - I think she would get a lot out of that and it would strengthen our connection. Right now, there’s not really anywhere I’m comfortable to let her off lead (aside from in her pasture) - the arena fences where I’m at are low enough that I’m pretty sure she could jump out, and I don’t want her to learn that’s an option

[JB]

@katmarcra

Do you have a person that you look to as a reference for that?

I don’t. But in the case of a plastic bag, imagine how many steps back you can take with the bag, including going all the way back to it tightly balled up in you hand for her to see and sniff. Then it might make a noise. Then it might touch her nose. Then it might be loosely balled and making noise as you put her feed bucket down.

You have to see that she’s interested, and maybe a little on edge, but have to also see when she’s getting to her tipping point and then you have to back off. That’s what teaches her to deal with her fear, not by trying to keep her calm, but to show her she can have some concern, but that the scary things do go away long before they can hurt her

[GraceLikeRain]

@katmarcra

She wants to do stuff and if the stuff isn’t interesting enough or doesn’t engage her meaningfully, she’s happy to ignore it in favor of something more interesting. Sometimes that’s good - she loves watching lessons when we’re taking a break during a ride or groundwork session - and sometimes that’s very unhelpful - like what I was experiencing with the pressure points.

I’d be mindful of overlaying a human set of values.

Does she leave grazing to watch a lesson? If not, I’d be more inclined to say she’s anxious than bored and looking for entertainment. When you introduce a stimuli taking her out of baseline she’s going into alert mode and scanning the environment for the activity most likely to create issue.

If the bag takes her over threshold and she can’t self regulate, the 50 foot exercise is asking her to stack a ton of skills that she lacks. Moving back and forth between sympathetic and parasympathetic is the foundation of everything.

I’d go back to the smallest building blocks. Can you catch her eyes and ears at liberty? What happens to her body and facial language after you move her shoulder or hip? Can she yield all of the parts of her body without it introducing tension? When she has enough notice that you get a nose crinkle or worried eye, how long until she licks and chews/yawns/blows/shakes and totally returns to neutral?

Most horses are willing to do a lot of things with tension. I had one that took six months on the ground to get her genuinely trusting and calm for tacking, mounting, and walking off. This was a well schooled horse that looked completely “fine” but the issues were occurring off property, showing, etc. When I went back and filled in the foundation then suddenly the other issues were non issues.

[candyappy]

@katmarcra

In particular, I want her to be comfortable with trails and going other places like low-level dressage/combined competitions because that’s what I’m hoping is in the future for us.

There is nothing baby-ish about a 6 year old. The best way I know to get a horse to be comfortable going out on trail, and shows —is to ride trails and go to shows?

Start modestly on the trails with a very steady riding buddy and ride/ lead her where you need to but just let her take it at her pace with no pressure.

For shows just go as a training opportunity. Let her get used to all the activity, ride her if she is calm enough etc…

[Scribbler]

@JB

@katmarcra

Do you have a person that you look to as a reference for that?

I don’t. But in the case of a plastic bag, imagine how many steps back you can take with the bag, including going all the way back to it tightly balled up in you hand for her to see and sniff. Then it might make a noise. Then it might touch her nose. Then it might be loosely balled and making noise as you put her feed bucket down.

You have to see that she’s interested, and maybe a little on edge, but have to also see when she’s getting to her tipping point and then you have to back off. That’s what teaches her to deal with her fear, not by trying to keep her calm, but to show her she can have some concern, but that the scary things do go away long before they can hurt her

Yes! And to add, the tipping point for different horses is different. The idea working with scary objects is to push the edge of that tipping point. But not over it. If you make your horse spook or snort you have gone too fast and messed up. You need to read your horse and retreat the thing before they react, when they just have a wrinkled eye or fixated gaze or stop breathing etc.

Just because Suzy has a 25 year ranch bred QH with arthritis that wouldn’t react to an actual grenade going off and barely notices a bag flapping, doesn’t mean that’s the possible or desired outcome for Betty and her 5 year old Arabian.

You just work to extend what they feel.comfortable with. The idea is to teach the horse the meta concept that you will not push or overface or scare them. It does matter how far you get with any activity as long as you realize that you are not “desensitizing” them to select objects but are teaching them that if you are there, they don’t need to be scared.

Because nothing can prepare them for everything, like coming across 5 nuns in full white habit taking a walk in the park. Your horse just has to trust you when you say relax it’s just nuns.

As far as videos they are only useful up to a point. You need to learn to read your horse, the one in front of you today. A brave horse may stand stoic until it can’t and then explode.