@Epanafero We’d love to hear every detail. The more information shared the more we all learn - the hive and then the more we are able to help our horses. And thanks @starsandsun for sharing Dr. Polkes info.
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I am fascinated by the journey you took! What an ordeal!
With him now righted and cooking his food properly…what does he eat? I am so happy he’s well!!
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I am grateful to you for your quick reply and grab a cup of something, this is long…
This is not exhaustive and probably somewhat disjointed and I’ve re-written his history so many times - I hope this will be coherent. Thank you for your interest and I would greatly appreciate hearing about others experience that are similar as I have yet to find anyone that can relate. Please note, his bloating is most definitely not hay belly. He inflates and deflates sometimes so rapidly over the span of 24 hours that he will look like 2 different horses.
Zeteo is a 3 1/2 year old Gypsy gelding. He is my second horse, my first was an Arabian that I had for 30 years. I bought Zeteo largely because I fell in love with his father. They are both smart, kind, very aware, incredibly sensible and want to please.
Up to the age of 3 he lived outside 24/7, eating hay, short periods of grass in the summer and a daily ration balancer. He was on a very big dry lot in a large group where in the summer they would get hay (or grass in summer) and they would always run out of hay before they would get more. This was intentional as the herd he was in was the “fatty” group and all needed to not have constant free access to forage except in extreme cold when they would have open access. Everyone was well managed and maintained weight well despite not all being part of an exercise program.
Here is his basic history:
@ 4 mo old (fall 2019) he had pneumonia (streptococcus zooepidemicus). He had already begun a 9 week course of Rifampin/clarithromycin as we assumed it must be foal pneumonia. Pneumonia resolved. I mention this as I feel it may have contributed to his ongoing problems.
Spring 2020: periodically not quite himself dragging, low grade temp, not a playful baby. Always resolved on its own, no intervention, just kept an eye on him.
Fall 2020: severe bloating episode & colic, TPR all alarmingly high. Vet ultrasound, no impaction and his abdomen was incredibly bloated, easy to see. He looked like a full term mare ready to deliver or like his barrel was an actual 55 gallon drum, hard as a rock and no definition to it whatsoever behind the rib cage. Before the vet arrived, he pooped (normal) and passed lots of gas. After banamine and buscopan, vet suggested (brilliantly) to put him on a trailer see if vibrations help him pass gas. Bingo! 40 minutes later off the trailer, he looked and was behaving like a normal yearling.
January 2021: periods of not himself, low grade fever, not playful combined with not moving quite normally. By that, mean really dragging when walking him in from pasture, asking him to turn around in order to cross tie, etc.
Summer 2021: started him on pro and prebiotic recommended by a vet and equine nutrition savvy friend. Noticed no difference. Discontinued after about 4 months.
Fall 2021: Vet (who is longer in my area) suggested adding beet pulp w/o molasses with hope of rebalancing gut. She agreed with my suspicion that heavy antibiotics the year before could have fried his gut. She also suggested having his poo analyzed by a company that does micro biome eval for dogs and cats (she didn’t know if they did horses or not).
From then until Summer 2022: He had no severe problems and I hoped he was growing out of whatever mysterious issue he had. He would have random periods where he would visibly bloat, any season, any weather. Fasting for a few hours if mild or overnight if more significant, has always resolved the problem but it wasn’t enough to limit him or our activity. When I would notice bloating, I would bring him in overnight SMALL handful of hay and access to water. By morning, looks like a normal horse again.
Fall 2022: moved to a new farm in the same basic area, however hay / grass are available 24/7, they never run out. Within 3 weeks he began to bloat and has had constant problems since. Now he wears a grazing muzzle when outside (only used periodically before I moved him) and I’ve changed his management from pastured to in a stall 12 in / 12 out so that he gets a break from hay / grass. He requires educated eyes on him every day, I am grateful for a farm staff that is very willing, sympathetic and capable!
Dec 2022: No longer on beet pulp (not making a difference). The company for analyzing poo doesn’t do horses yet but wants to. They analyzed his poo and I have his results, lots of numbers and a great pie chart but I do not have knowledge of bacteria to know what to do with that information. That said, I feel his problems begin way before his poo exits his body so its completely possible the key to prevention is not necessarily there.
His current management is mostly successful, he continues to randomly bloat, occasionally will have a low grade temp and be uncomfortable.
His triggers are not consistent but I have found the following usually set him off: uninterrupted access to forage, hay treated with preservative (for example propionic acid), alfalfa in hay, high sugar content in grass growth (like fall growth). He has not yet reacted to vaccinations or worming.
As he is a small draft type, slow to mature physically, we spend almost no time under saddle, instead take long walks, free lunge, long line, do ground work, etc. His bloating and discomfort have ebbed and flowed significantly in our time together but as he’s only a 3 year old and 1st year complicated by pneumonia, it’s not like I have enough history to establish seasonal patterns. When he is bloating, he struggles to use move correctly and it’s like his senses are dulled - he’s always aware of me but he’s asking me to be extra aware for him. I would definitely describe his coat as dull especially the last 12 months and when free lunging him he will frequently throw in a buck in order to pick up his canter. I’ve always chalked that up to his development and weakness in his back end. But I have been intentional to strengthen his back end and core, walking rocky hills through the woods. Now I wonder it could also be related to discomfort and not the growth spurts of an 18 months old.
I have learned to meet him where he’s at when I get to the farm. I throw my plans out the window depending on how he’s feeling when I arrive because how he was yesterday is not an indication of how he will be today.
Thank you so much for your input. This has been a pretty depressing process and for the first time, there is a glimmer of hope.
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Has he been tested for pssm type 1? As any of the muscle disorders can present like a colic.
Like this handy chart: my mare with pssm has all these symptoms except she will eat.
Have you tried slow feed nets? As some horses over eat and that can cause issues if they are hoover vacuums towards food.
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He only eats thru a grazing muzzle or hay net double bagged even with 1 1/2 inch holes because he is totally a Hoover. About PSSM, I’ve never considered testing him as he’s never present as lame or muscle soreness and it’s never come up in the many vets I’ve talked to about him, but it is certainly something work asking about.
What a time the two of you have had! I have a friend whose daughter was on a lot of antibiotics as a young child. They damaged the peristaltic action in her gut. I would not have thought of that because I know nothing about it…but it popped in my head when you mentioned the drugs and pneumonia. She recovered but it took time. I wonder if there is research somewhere on it.
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What has his poop been like? Is it consistent through his symptoms, or does it vary? If it varies is the variation consistent with current symptoms (or lack of)?
You don’t have to write it out in detail, just an overview is fine. I know it isn’t fun to keep dragging out the same drama. Only major variation, if it is sometimes liquid soup, sometimes normal, sometimes ploppy but not liquid, that kind of thing.
Hope things stay on track with him. Poor boy – hope this resolves for you and him both!
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His poo does not vary and unfortunately always looks quite normal, furthers the mystery.
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Because I’m just nuts for pictures, can you share any of him, healthy and bloated? And the manure would be really interesting to see.
I am so curious … in my experience the poor stomach health and bad bacterial overgrowth really was a culprit that just wrecked his small intestine and colon … they couldn’t ‘perform’ with the food stuff the stomach was kicking out.
I’d love to see the pie chart with manure test sample … have seen a bit of research comparing biome of healthy horses to unhealthy and would like to see how his compares.
I do think he needs a gastroscopy to see what’s going on in there (after fasting) and Dr. Polkes can certainly do that, with ultrasound to look at as much of small intestine/colon as possible.
Just thinking ahead - I don’t know her travel area or exactly where you are. You might need to haul down to Maryland.
Quick update on my wonderful boy, as long as I’m here.
We have had 4 gastroscopies since July, and the last one was a week ago. His stomach looks gorgeous. Visible mucous, healthy lining, no ulcers or redness, and no weird wrinkly yellow either. The areas of gut inflammation very obviously visible on ultrasound in July have completely resolved. Manure has not looked this perfect in years. Now, some people might think 4 is over the line, but as long as we were moving towards the end zone, and he remained on any meds, my extensive vet team wanted to monitor his gut changes, and that’s the way to do it.
We’ve been riding at least 30 minutes (rather than 10-13!) 4-5 days per week, with zero grinding, amazing use of his body again. He feels like a Ferrari, and is SO happy, goofy and playful again. I’ve even been able to start work again with a wonderful trainer. It’s all just so good, for the first time in years and years.
He did stay on enrofloxacin for an extended period of time because the pseudenomas was not completely eradicated. The thought is the prednisolone (5 tabs twice per day) was preventing it from being as effective as it needed to be. So I did reduce him to 5 tabs once per day about a month ago, and just waiting on latest lab work to determine if we can take him off completely. He’s been off the latest refill of enrofloxacin for about 3 weeks.
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Hi - have you received the bacterial analysis yet??
Do you know the USPS lost my package? Mailed it 3 weeks ago with a tracking. Have to start all over. Really irritating and won’t be sending back USPS.
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I had a suspicion you were working with Dr. Polkes as I believe her SOP is to test PH and send for analysis if there are any concerns.
She’s a fabulous vet - we’re lucky to have her in the area!
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Just an update - notified PSSM2 positive - the mustang w DNA result showing 37% European Heavy Horse. Muscle biopsy sent to Univ of MI. That explains some things and good to know. Didn’t want to join that club. But now a card carrying member and will be aggressive on getting everything in line including having already started a professional nutritional consult. I was already supplementing amino acids - hadn’t liked his topline since I’d gotten him and he’s on Santa Cruz Vitamin E.
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Stephanie Valberg is an amazing resource … her team has been so helpful for me. BTW, how much Vitamin E are you/were you giving? My boy gets 8000 units daily.
I knew she was THE go to but just sat down to really dig my teeth into the subject. Your guy is 2 positive? I’m doing 4,000/day and wow I’ll double it? They tested my guy and he came back at just over 6.00. Interesting. That stuff does work.
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Is this what your horse looks like when moving? I’m not convinced that simply increasing exercise and correcting the diet is enough for these guys. Saturday she was feeling great and galloping all over the pasture. I rode her yesterday and she was sluggish, stiff, and sort of sad looking. She’ll be 19 this spring and is so exercise intolerant at this point that she’s just about retired. I take her out for about 20 minutes just to give her a job.
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That is very interesting to see. And you can see she wants to work for you. What I see in my guy is he just doesn’t want to do much. Doesn’t want to go and has bucked an usual amount running in the field. Sometimes he has flown around and looks amazing, but at the start of MOST gallops he bucks and bucks and bucks. And if you ask him to canter on the lunge he’s pissed. Otherwise very willing.
I don’t see much cross firing in his canters out in the open. And from what I see online his case is going to be considered mild and fingers crossed with some changes in feeding and management I can get him feeling good.
And I’ve also noticed muscle trembling from time to time. Now I think we know why.
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Just by chance I just came across a video that looks exactly how my guy moves. I forgot that he does often PePe LePew. Check this out at the 11:25 mark.
And she does show later cantering video and he looks great- skim ahead to find it. She takes you through her whole diet program history and said that getting the protein up and enough Vitamin E was the game changer…in addition to all the other requirement.
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