I’m not sure how common it is. I’ve watched maybe 4-5 litters online and seen 2 pups out of 40 that had an undesirable marking. Not sure if that’s representative of the breed as a whole or not. Of course out of the rest, there were pups with stronger or weaker conformations and even though they could all technically be shown, I’m sure there were less that the breeder would choose to show or breed than place as pets.
Most breeders I know have very very few pups that CAN’T be shown because they possess some DQ’ing feature but most will tell you they only have 1 or 2 “show quality” dogs out of each litter. Yes, the others are nice examples of the breed and COULD be shown. Doesn’t mean they’ll do well there or should be breeding stock.
Same reason we say that a nice stallion will make an excellent gelding. You look for exceptional to breed, not just nice and conformation showing is about evaluating breeding stock (says the girl who loves to conformation show but doesn’t breed 
) .
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Well, I understand the concept; of course; I also show my dogs. But at 8 weeks it’s hard to know exactly which ones are breeding material, unless there is a significant fault. It’s really only through competition that you find out which one should be bred versus which ones are just ok.
Obviously most breeders do not produce 100% show quality litters; the few I’m talking about are pretty exceptional. But I don’t think most people realize that a well-bred show litter doesn’t mean there are only 2 “good” puppies and 5 DQs or “pet only” quality. (e.g. the “waste” example above).
You hear people say to go look for a show breeder that might sell puppies “not good enough” for the show ring but I don’t think they are always that obviously different. I think that concept makes it sound like show breeders don’t care that they are producing numbers of defective dogs for a scarce few good ones.
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Regarding the show vs pet quality littermates.
I think of it more like a conformation class at an A show.
Some of the horses are clearly outstanding and in the ribbons, but most of the class is excellent quality and shouldn’t be embarrassed to be there.
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I completely agree. It’s not “waste” or “low quality” it’s just some that might find it harder to make champion over the dogs that are outstanding out of that litter even though they’re all really great. Most breeders do make their picks around 8-10 weeks, so sometimes end up with the pick of the litter that doesn’t finish as nicely as one that went to a “pet home”. I’m horrible at evaluating the youngins so would have to defer to someone else. Some people are great at it.
I agree that the difference between the best puppies and the lesser puppies in a litter is usually indistinguishable to a pet buyer (though the difference should be obvious to the breeder!) but I am interested to hear you say that at 8 weeks it’s hard to know which ones will be breeding material–by which I’m guessing you mean the show quality dogs?
My breed was Poodles (Standards and Minis) and we always made our picks by 8-9 weeks. It was easy to see by that age what you had. I’m no longer breeding and showing, but I was lucky to be doing so at a time when there was much camraderie among Poodle breeders. If a newbie (or an experienced breeder) had any doubts about their picks it was easy to get a second opinion from one of the “greats” in the breed.
At what age do you sort out your litters?
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I can understand not wanting to spend $3K on a puppy. But it doesn’t seem to me, in 2022, to be an unreasonable, let alone outrageous, price for a well-bred Basenji puppy from a reputable breeder. I don’t know much about Basenjis, but they’re not exactly a common breed in the U.S. are they (ie you couldnt find 10 reputable breeders in at least half of US states), nor I believe, are they known to produce large litters (6+ puppies). It’s one thing to not make money breeding dogs, and another thing to go bankrupt trying to do it. My guess is that $3K per puppy is somewhere in the mid- to upper range of not making any money, while charging $1K (or less!) is a whole lot closer to the bankruptcy range.
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Well, yes, at 8 weeks you get your best “snapshot” of the final conformation, but it’s still just a guess. Once they are fully grown you might find that they are good but not great, and/or not the best mover, etc. My breed has a size DQ (over and under) and it’s not uncommon for some males to go just over the standard, or some bitches just a little too small, etc. And then of course they have to pass health screenings before breeding.
If you have a really nice litter, you might place 3-4 puppies in show homes but just because they are shown and even if they finish, doesn’t mean they will/should be bred. Especially the males. Stud dogs/semen options are easy to get - my puppy was bred in St. Louis and the stud lives in California. So the “just barely finished” males are rarely used by good breeders.
A consistent litter shouldn’t have too many obvious “not show quality” puppies, so even good breeders might have trouble picking the best of the best. But yes - some breeders are really good at picking puppies. And you can tell a lot from photos, but watching them move is really important too.
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Well, that may have turned out badly. My mom agreed to let me find her a spaniel through the breeder we got our dog from. She wanted a female and the size was perfect. Well, then one of the rescues that had turned her down for a 2-3 year old female dog, called her back and said they had a dog for her. Instead of a 35-40 pound female, they are sending her (they’re in another state!) a big male Pit/Lab cross. Actually, it just looks like a mostly Pit. She said yes because she thought it was the only dog she could get and the high pressure/guilt tactics were too much. My mom has a tiny yard and a two neighbor dogs that will probably bark and fuss a the fence line every time she takes her dog outside. In addition, my brother brings his two little girls over frequently. Toddlers don’t mix well with many dogs, and especially, ones with a lot of bite power that are face level with the dog. I’m so mad at this fake rescue I could spit. They’re pawning off a hard to place dog on an older lady that wanted something smaller. My stepdad is worried, but the deal is done. I told my mom to check with her homeowner’s insurance and that she may not be allowed to have a Pit. It’s my effort to stop this madness. People just freaking suck.
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Is there any way you can stop this? It’s a giant crises waiting to happen, or worse. Can you call the rescue and say No Way.
Can you take it to social media?
This rescue needs to have their license or 501 c3 revoked.
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Alas, taking it to social media is probably the worst idea, since according to social media, every single pit bull has zero issues and is absolutely perfect for every home, regardless of background.
One shelter in my area does testing for dog/cat aggression and a host of temperament issues and I really trust them.
I saw on Facebook an old teacher of mine adopted from the “other” shelter in town. She is a senior, previously owned a pit cross, and is keeping the new dog, but she’s already gotten a dog trainer because the dog is very dog aggressive and has a number of health issues. She says the shelter never tested the dog, despite specifically asking for a dog that wasn’t dog aggressive.
I think many shelters and rescues mean well, but their ideology that “there are not bad dogs” can lead to them making many bad matches.
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Unfortunately your mom made the decision so she is the one to cancel accepting this dog.
You need to have a very quick emergency discussion with her and your stepfather to halt this adoption- today.
What if she’s not able to turn dog over to another rescue or shelter if this one doesn’t work out?
Check the adoption agreement. How far away is this new dog? Can she go see it in person?
I feel for you, sometimes parents don’t always do what we think is best for them.
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I think perhaps we might be talking at cross purposes (or maybe I’m simply not understanding.) I can’t imagine trying to evaluate a litter from pictures. I don’t even know how that would work.
Maybe Poodles mature more quickly than Brittanies? At 8-9 weeks a Poodle’s movement, attitude, and temperament are already apparent. Conformation can be not only seen, but felt. And of course, as breeder, you’ve been living with these puppies so you’ve had the chance to watch them develop as well.
There is also a height DQ in my breed (2 actually, one for Minis and one for Toys) and although it isn’t a perfect science, most Poodle breeders know their own lines and what they are apt to produce, and can tell pretty early on which dogs will stay within the standard (height-wise) and which won’t.
I don’t think we disagree at all about what breeders can or should be doing, I was just curious about your comment that breeders don’t actually know what they have until their dogs are older.
Oh, I meant if a breeder wants help to evaluate the litter and wants to call on others to assist; pictures can be helpful - some really great breeders can pick the best from well done photos (which of course is another whole thing). Some breeders just aren’t good at identifying the best at 8 weeks so they ask for help. But of course seeing them in person and living with them over time is the best if the breeder is confident.
We are not disagreeing. I just got a puppy Saturday from a litter that was so consistent the breeder drove them 17 hours for the final selection with the help of two other long term breeders (and to drop off puppies since we were from the same region). The first pick was clear. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th were so similar that it was almost like you couldn’t go wrong. There was a lot of debate about the 2nd & 3rd and it was really splitting hairs - really it came down to temperament for those two. 5, 6 & 7 went to pet homes, but not for any specific fault, one had not as great of shoulder/sternum assembly but not bad, one was a little lighter in color which could change and isn’t really that important; one had a slightly lighter build but that could be great in the end, but because it was different than the others it seemed the best option to send it to the pet home…etc. Of the 7 puppies, probably all or most of them could have finished if they all went to show homes.
I think the breeder had them pretty well ranked before consultation with the other two; but it helped confirm her decisions and gave the other buyers some opportunity to discuss/consider the temperaments on top of the conformation.
Height is a tricky thing; for the most part I think breeders with long pedigrees don’t have a lot of surprises, but every now and then one goes over. Rarely are males under, but I’ve seen a couple bitches who are. I had a dog who went 3 inches over. WTF?? 
And I have one that is right on the line even though he has a littermate who is quite small for a male.
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Oh Goody, your little one arrived! are you gonna share pics with us soon?
Hope it’s going well with your tiny baby. 
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Man I love a Spaniel face 
My first dog of my own, I was probably 8 years old, was a Cocker from a local AKC breeder. He was the last one left because he was “a bit too big.” He ended up 3" over standard and weighed in at a trim 42lbs 
I loved that dog to death.
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Handsome head and face and strong looking body. Very nice pup.
What’s his name and what are your plans for him?
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I grew up with Cockers, such lovely little dogs. My mother produced one litter in the early 80s, of which we kept a puppy, and the rest went to wonderful pet homes and we kept up with most of them until they all passed of old age. Mom never bred the female again, as I believe she went into the proverbial hole on the litter after all vet care, feed, and supplies. I don’t know what the reasoning was behind breeding in the first place.
On the subject of quality and what buyers are willing to pay, I currently have a relative who has purchased some GSD puppies with a plan to breed them as a source of income. This is one of many in a long line of breeds that they had planned the same thing with. Purse dogs, designer crosses, and now GSDs . . . all my suggestions and information has fallen on deaf ears for years upon years. They DO make money – they do all vet care themselves, feed cheap/horrible quality food, and cut corners at every possible chance. The animals they’ve produced so far have all had physical and/or temperament issues of some sort. With the toy breeds they’ve bred so far, it’s bad enough. I shudder to think of what’s in store for the GSDs, especially since I know they didn’t buy quality puppies and they won’t be looking at issues like hips. 
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My mom is in full control of her faculties, so no, she has committed to the dog at this point. She is very active on Facebook and has probably received all the accolades for taking a hard to place dog already. She’s socially stuck, (another reason we don’t do Facebook). She told me she will keep the dog separate from the girls when they visit and see how he does with the fence line. She will send him back if she sees any signs of aggression towards dogs or people. I told her the honeymoon period is two weeks, then she’ll see what she has. She is talented at training dogs, but I fear this big dog pulling her over if he’s aggressive towards other dogs. The rescue said that he can’t be aggressive because he’s with 20 dogs. BS. He doesn’t have his own person, yet, and besides, that’s his pack. They can’t say what he’ll do in a new home. I think he’s 2-3 years old.
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