As for dogs that don’t like showing - the Welsh Terrier I have now is somewhat timid due to lack of socialization as a youngster (she spent most of her formative years living in a crate before her breeder took her back). My understanding is that she never enjoyed the shows but loved and trusted her breeder/handler enough that she was able to finish her championship. But she would never have made a good Specials prospect - was just too timid and lacked the necessary “sparkle.”
OK, what about the middle? I can’t believe there are only rescues/puppy mill or show quality.
I wanted a lab. I didn’t want a 2-3 year old rescue with unknown behavior issues. I also didn’t want to “rescue” a puppy because I agree that they are likely propping up puppy mills.
I researched breeders. I found one who did pay for the health testing and genetic screenings. However, didn’t have a whole lot in the way of titles. Their goal isn’t showing, but healthy pet dogs with great temperaments. Seemed like exactly what I was looking for (and so far our girl has been exactly that for us).
We took a look at the parents and, while I’m certainly no breed/dog expert, they were athletic looking balanced dogs with great temperaments. That, plus the screenings led us to pull the trigger on buying a pup from him.
She wasn’t $500, but she also wasn’t $3000. It’s been mentioned that the biggest price is showing and putting titles on.
Where does that leave this middle ground type of person? Certainly not what I would call a puppy mill. Nor do I think irresponsible. Maybe you all disagree and I propped up a bad breeder.
I can’t believe that there are only garbage breeders OR expensive show breeders–in the horse world and the dog. There is a market for nice, decent animals that aren’t the epitome of the breed without being a detriment either. At least I sure hope there is because I can’t see a very sustainable future if we’re all forced to spend $3000+ on puppies and $25,000+ on a yearling.
For the record: I don’t think there is anything wrong with those prices for the right animals, I just don’t think that should be the only market. There are a lot of happy and truly healthy animals without the show titles to back them up.
17 Likes
So I wouldn’t call a breeder like yours irresponsible either. If they are doing the health testing & they take their dogs back when the owners get in trouble - then that meets MY bare minimum for a decent breeder. Since my breeds are supposed to be performance animals (herding, protection, sports), I ALSO want proof that dogs can do what they’re bred to do but that’s me.
For popular breeds like labs, though, I would expect any halfway good breeder can charge at least $1000 and always have people on the wait list. There are always going to be more people who want a lab puppy than there are puppies on the ground from responsible breeders …so we always end up with the irresponsible ones skipping doing hips & elbow and puppy mills churning out goodness knows what for the $$.
It’s a hard problem to even start an answer to - responsible supply doesn’t match total demand so in comes irresponsible supply.
4 Likes
No, I think there is a market for quality pets, but I am not really sure that the price of a ‘pet bred’ lab would be less than a show bred dog of another breed.
It is true that the cost of putting a show championship on a lab or golden is very high because of the larger numbers competing in those breeds, and often the need to hire handlers to actually finish the dog. At least in my breed if you’re going to lose, you lose quickly. Goldens are in the ring for hours sometimes, which means handlers have to have other handlers “start” the dogs in the ring and then come back when the dog is ready to be presented to the judge. I’ve heard people say that the average price ticket for a Ch. in those breeds is $25K or more.
But I would expect those dogs to have some kinds of titles - a CGC and/or obedience/rally title to demonstrate their trainability and temperament. And I would expect that they are being selected for quality, health, structure, etc., so they wouldn’t be cheap.
Maybe somewhere around $1000-$1500 or so at minimum. Which bumps up pretty close to the price of show litters in my breed.
Yes, the price of any breed is very subjective. I wouldn’t know where to begin on what a fair price was on most breeds.
Our gal was $900 three years ago, so probably in your $1000-1500 range today. But I still imagine that’s less than the real champion show quality labs since, as you say, that takes a lot of time and effort to produce.
Our Llewellin Setter was free, from when two hobby level hunters (travel and may do a field trial or two but mostly for fun) had an accident litter. But I don’t hold my breath that we’ll get that lucky again. One was my husband’s boss and he just wanted them to find good homes.
Yes, he did have a waiting list and shipped all over the US. Also will take any dog back, though I can’t imagine parting with our lovely lady.
Glad at least to some I wasn’t propping up a bad breeder. I was a little nervous to put it out there. 
1 Like
I have the best luck with AKC puppy finder. I like pet shepherds. Much less angulation than conformation lines and much lower drive than the working lines. There must be a “off” switch. So I rule out “champion lines” or those showing a stacked pup and those whose parents have schuntzhund titles. Then I look for ofa hips at minimum. I paid $700 for my 5yr old male and $2000 for my 8 month female. When Pitt crosses are being advertised for $500 on Craigslist, it puts $2000 in perspective.
I wish there was more of a middle ground for pets - to really produce good, healthy pets is a worthwhile endeavor, and not necessary to put a championship title on them (or at least not ALL of them). But I think there would still be people that don’t value the effort to produce a healthy puppy, and they would then go to the crappy BYB who can crank out 3-4 litters/year of 6-8 puppies each and still make a profit selling them for $500. But they are the ones that will be more likely to suffer from the congenital defects, and have bad/incorrect temperaments.
5 Likes
B-burg dressage, I got my collie puppy (my first dog in 40+ years) last August from a breb eder very much like your lab breeder. No show records, but does the full range of health testing on parents with the goal of producing AKC purebred pet dogs with great temperaments that are also (to my untrained eyes) great looking representatives of the breed. Pups from this breeder were priced at $1200, always a wait list, try to place their retired breeders with families who already have one of the retiree’s offspring, will take back any that are not adjusting to their new home. I had no interest in showing, so they were exactly what I was looking for and I was very lucky to only have to wait ~ 6 months for a puppy.
3 Likes
This seems reasonable to me. As I mentioned, the rescue fee for my terrier mix was $600, even double that would have been doable, just not 5 times!
Very breed dependent.
1 Like
Absolute minimum health clearances in GSDs, regardless which “type” should be hips, elbows, spine, & DM.
5 Likes
My cousin is looking at American Water Spaniels. She has had a Siberian Husky (her father’s choice), a Dalmatian (from a VERY reputable breeder), and a Labrador Retriever who came from a rescue Person.
The rescue person had moved to our state, bringing a 4 or 5 month old, FIELD-BRED Lab puppy. Somehow, someone knowing someone knowing my cousin managed to get them together. “Gizmo” was definitely a Will Try Everything Dog—obedience, agility, carting, and water rescue where he got an advanced title.
She is hampered, however, in that she is fostering a dog belonging to a friend of her son’s. Rosie is an incredibly sweet pitbull mix, but my cousin only wants one dog at a time. (When she had Gizmo, a dear friend passed away unexpectedly, and my cousin took in her dog. And then my cousin’s father-in-law passed away–MIL already gone–and his daughters didn’t want HIS dog, so my cousin took in that dog as well. So, for several years she had three dogs, then two, then one, and now this pitbull mix. The last dog (her friend’s) passed away recently, so my cousin is down to one dog.
All that being said, I picked up a Gun Dog magazine at Tractor Supply several years ago. There were a LOT of ads for puppies of every Sporting breed I had heard of and several more that I hadn’t. My cousin and I talked about possibly contacting one of those breeders of "working " sporting dogs to ask about “failed” puppies or dogs, the ones that don’t have quite the drive that hunters/competitive field people are looking for. That puppy might still have enough of a brain, aptitude, health, etc. to do the kinds of dog activities my cousin likes to participate in.
I haven’t seen the Gun Dog magazine in Tractor Supply in years. However, they have an online website.
1 Like
This is worth repeating to anyone considering a German Shepherd or a GSD mix.
DM is a heartbreaker disease and is so prevalent in poorly bred or BYB GSDs/
Also all the joint problems and many other miscellaneous inherited problems in GSDs.
I hear about 3 or 4 new stories every week on the German Shepherd forum. Unfortunately these things show up AFTER the dog purchase and the family is attached to the dog.
A lot of problems could be avoided with some advanced caution and only dealing with legitimate
breeders.
6 Likes
Reputable breeder do take back any puppy they produce for the life of the puppy/dog. They do not have to provide any money back when rehoming but again most do give back the money less expenses for vet visits/board until placed. If it is because the people changed their mind then I would not give back a penny either.
Reputable breeders do not “make” money on their hobby. Hobbies cost money and they understand that. Reputable breeders may appear to make money on a litter but overall Reputable breeders lose money year after year.
Reputable breeders test all breeding stock and the results in Canada and the US are posted on the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website at https://www.ofa.org/
There is no other place in North America to have hips rated unless you do PennHip. So if you want to see if your breeder is reputable look them up. If they are not there they are not “reputable”. (The exception is if they do PennHip for hip dysplasia).
Reputable breeders do not have puppies available year round. They carefully plan their breeding with the goal of improving the breed.
Buying from a reputable breeder is not cheap but you are usually getting what you paid for if they are reputable.
Some other not reputable breeder categories
- show breeders - they breed so they can have the next best champion. they need to produce lots of puppies to pay their showing expenses
- greeders - they breed to put money on the table or buy fancy cars and vacations
- backyard breeders - generally start out with good intentions but do not do any research, do not show or proof their parent dogs, may health test one or two dogs for one or two tests but mostly breed because they think it is easy or they refused to properly fence their dog in. Cause you know they did not understand that it may jump the fence or another dog may jump in.
2 Likes
Hmm…I know a lot of “show breeders” and this statement does not represent them. I’m not sure it is representative of most “show breeders” because you can only own so many dogs. The great breeders out there keep a handful for themselves, but they are not necessarily looking to produce their own dog. They are looking to produce great dogs, and their name will be on them whether they actually take them in the ring or not.
But I suppose, maybe someone who calls themselves a “show breeder” versus just a “breeder” is a different category.
6 Likes
Sorry if my post was not clear. I worded it poorly.
If you are a Reputable breeder you still show dogs. You understand that it may cost you money to have a litter or show a puppy.
Ethical dog breeders usually make, at most, a small profit from the sale of their puppies because most of the money their clients pay goes to cover expenses such as health screening for genetic disorders, stud fees, vet fees and registration.
If you only breed so you can support “your” next show dog then you are, in my opinion, a show breeder. You need to sell puppies to be able to show, and showing is most important, not anything else. Like temperament or livability.
Feel free to provide me with another name for these “breeders”.
1 Like
I will add a caveat to this… depending on the breed, many breeding dogs may have their hip/elbows/spine cleared through the SV.
So just because they don’t show up on OFA, doesn’t automatically mean they’ve not been certified.
Always, always ask to see the official documents.
The OFA has a chart for international ratings.
https://www.ofa.org/diseases/hip-dysplasia/hip-international-ratings-matrix
2 Likes
I don’t think I know anyone like that. No one really expects puppies to make enough money to support their own plans to show dogs, because the showing is the most expensive thing – show entries, gas, hotels, food, all the stuff you have to bring…it’s easy to drop $500 in a weekend and walk away with a 3rd place ribbon and a credit card bill. But I do know breeders that are trying to breed a better dog (in their breeding program) and doing it on a sad, shoestring budget.
Not sure if you show dogs yourself, and/or if you’ve ever watched Best In Show. People ask me about that movie a lot, and I tell them the most realistic couple is the terrier couple whose credit cards are maxed out and sleep in the janitor closet at the hotel.
I think this kind of breeder is very common. Our breed national show is always in Arkansas, and every year that I’ve attended people have known people who are looking to share rides and hotel rooms. No way am I sharing a hotel room with someone I don’t even know, just to save $50/day. If I can’t afford it, I’m not going. I don’t even want to share a room with someone I do know!
In the end, I think the dogs they breed are good quality, and I don’t think they are propping up their show career with breeding - it’s more that they skimp and save in the rest of their lives to prop up their breeding program.
But, that’s like a lot of hobbies. I certainly think there is a lot of this in horses as well, and not even breeding.
5 Likes
I have known backyard breeders who do it simply because their dog is “so cute.” I’ll be honest, nothing pisses me off more than this mentality.
I knew one who’s dog was a mixed breed. Literally NO reason to breed. She just thought it was a cute dog.
I knew another who had a Sheepadoodle. And her friends liked it, so she thought, “Hey, my dog is cute and well liked…I’ll make more and sell them to my friends!”
I think of myself as a fairly diplomatic person, but I have no response when I hear these kinds of statements. It’s just so farking unbelievably stupid and irresponsible.
10 Likes
