Reputable Breeders versus Rescue

Awesome article, 8pond!

And talking about “grooming for show” - the excessive scissoring has gotten ridiculous. Samoyeds, Setters of all types, even Newfies and Pyrs now look like cut-outs from a picture book. But no breed has been more ruined by this practice than the Old English Sheepdog. They used to be good solid, “working dog” types, but the ones now in the show ring could give Poodles a run for their money in the froo-froo department. Blech.

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Bravo Wayne Cavanaugh!

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Change the wording slightly and this could be a critique of breed shows in hand.

And then of course, there is the rough equivalence of who is the dog’s handler and who is handling the horse in the halter ring or standing at the in gate when Suzie rides her course?

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I agree with this part; I think the worst influence on the judging system is the multi-day clusters where the judges are not only allowed, but encouraged to watch the group judging. Which made sense in the days when show weekends were 1-2 days long and clubs had enough members and money to hire different judges for different days.

But now the same slate of judges are judging 4 days in a row, and watching every group before/after they judge those breeds. Everyone knows that a key factor in picking up breed points is to be the winner on the first day of the cluster. When all the judges see you in the group ring on Day #1, your chances of winning go up. If you already have a competitive dog, it’s worth making the trip for the Thursday show even if there are no other entries just so the other judges see that you’re the winner.

That said, I have seen a lot of very good judging in my breed in the classes. Lots of times where the better dog won despite the handling. We don’t tend to have a lot of pros handling in the classes in my breed, so that may make a difference.

I do wish the grooming wasn’t so competitive though. It makes a huge difference when the competition has been literally hand plucked and scissored daily over the prior months. My breed isn’t supposed to grow a super heavy coat, but most of the males do have a good amount hair and it’s hard to make it look as neat by pre-show grooming compared to those dogs who have a groomer/owner and they do it every day.

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The people I can’t understand or relate to are the people like Cecilia Ruggles, who owned two Westminster BIS, Stump the Sussex Spaniel and JR the Bichon. She paid for the dogs and turned them over to a top handler halfway across the country. After their big wins both dogs retired to live with the handler, who had them until they died from old age. As far as I know these two dogs never set foot in the woman’s house.
It’s certainly not anything like abuse, not even close, but I just don’t get owning a dog not for the companionship, or the unconditional love, or even the working partnership…it’s all about the shows. I don’t have to “get it”, I realize that. It’s just a foreign concept to me.

Yes, I know people do the same with horses and maybe there are dog people who think it’s crazy that horse owners don’t keep their horses to snuggle with every day forever. Just my observation and commentary; I am not condemning anyone just because I can’t relate.

I agree on the grooming being overdone. Say “poodle” and most people immediately roll their eyes and say something about the ridiculous haircuts. That’s the association, not intelligence or the good-natured temperaments or that they’re fabulous family dogs.

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Whoa now, a PWD is not a froofy dog! Even in a lion clip all puffed up after a bath and blow dry my girl is a little tank and bred for water work first, and show ring second (her littermates show; she’s a barn rat LOL). :joy:

But in all seriousness, it has been so interesting to talk with her breeder about the breed and her program and her dedication to maintaining the working nature of the breed. She breeds at most a litter a year and is amazingly supportive of the people who get her pups in terms of training, grooming (it’s really fun to clip a dog, BTW), management, etc.

Don’t even get me started on doodles.

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It is no different than people wo own horses they never see.

they are sponsors of their chosen breed/handler
and frankly, the andlers probably love them more than a ‘normal’ owner could.

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Well, I agree that they are essentially sponsors. Lots of top dogs are co-owned and some of the owners are not really the “owner.”

But I don’t think it’s common that the handler keeps the dog in the end. I think handlers might love some dogs but not necessarily most. Lots of dogs stay out with a handler for a year, or a portion of a year, and then go back to their real family. I also think it might be easy for a handler to love a little dog like a Bichon (who has a lot of wins) and treat it more like a pet than their other client dogs…but probably not as common for the larger breeds or those who need more exercise than can be provided on a show circuit. They are probably pretty happy to send those home and take a break from them!

I would never want to be a pro handler. SO much work to keep them groomed, exercised, and happy.

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those are people who live and breathe dogs.
No different from those people who can direct a herd of horses with a wiggle of their pinky.
Definitely a breed of their own!

I guess; I was thinking more of them hauling equipment and setting up, taking down every four days…driving long distances…being out in the cold, rain, hot and sun to keep dogs bathroomed and exercised…chainsmoking cigarettes between classes, etc. I suppose that’s not so different than a lot of people in the horse industry.

The ones you don’t usually see in the groups at Westminster often work without much help and are grumpy, miserable and tired. Those are the ones I wouldn’t send my dogs with. I’ll bet some of the bigger name pros had money before they got into dogs. Like the old saying “how to make a million dollars? Start with two million.” :slight_smile: There are some pros I definitely would trust to care for my dog, but not a lot of them. (And I probably couldn’t afford them.)

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sounds like horse shows.
and I would not do those to that extent either.

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The Amish and Mennonite breeders are a nightmare.

I was a vet tech for about a decade, and we are close enough to PA to have gotten plenty of those dogs in. They were always either sick right away or loaded up with genetic issues that made their lives shorter or miserable (or both).

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Can we not paint the entire PA Dutch population with the animal abuse brush?

Full disclosure, my mother’s family is mennonite. And they are the same people who taught me the standards for keeping animals, they’re the same bunch that was putting both conf & field titles on their hounds and they sure has heck weren’t nightmare breeders.

Yes, the amish & mennonite have a bunch of puppy mill breeders amoung them. So do the “english”. Just like any group of people, there are really great ones and really terrible ones and a lot in the middle.

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I should have been more specific that I was referring to the mill-type breeders. I’m sorry.

And you’re right. There are plenty of puppy mill breeders everywhere.

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Thank you.

I really do appreciate the deutsch communities have a problem with puppy mills but they also have a lot of amazing, caring, folks who do right by their animals.

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How is this any difference than the big money “owners” who never put a foot in the stirrup? They’re enjoying owning a winning animal, no different than those well-heeled co-owners of the upper level dressage & hunter horses.

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Yes, and you never know how many other dogs they have at home. Maybe she keeps rescue dogs at home.

I know a variety of people who send their dogs out with handlers and they aren’t all big money people. There are various reasons to send the dog with a handler, and they might know how well they will do. For Stump or JR - do you bring them home after they start winning everything? Or, leave them out to contribute to a breeding program? It’s not unfair to leave them with the handler if they enjoy life on the circuit. If they didn’t, they would get sent home.

Bill Cosby owned many top soft coated wheaten terriers. I’ll bet he didn’t have them in his home when their show careers were over. Or perhaps he did, but it doesn’t seem that way.

Don’t forget that there are often lots of “owners” on top show dogs, and they are owners in the sense that they back the campaign, but never had (or wanted) to be the one who actually owned the dog.

This is not unlike lots of other sports. In dog shows it is possible to be “sponsored” by a dog food company or a vendor, but it’s very common as well to have individuals as “backers” to support the campaign. If you see a dog with more than three owners it can sometimes be a sign that the dog is backed (not always, of course. There are often times when multiple people own because it was a collaborative breeding and/or co-ownership of some kind.)

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Biggest reason is that it’s a competitive & popular breed. My belgians, well, we’re fairly rare and almost entirely owner handled. An amateur handler who comes out with a golden or a lab is going to have a really hard time of it. Yes, part of it is politics but part of it is just plain skill - a bad handler can make a great dog look mediocre real fast. Rather than take the risk and spend the money learning to handle their own (and possibly still run into the politics part of the ring), many owners with high-number breeds decide handlers are the better option.

I also know of a number of folks who are elderly, can’t handle their own dogs anymore due to mobility issues but still want to be part of the “scene”. So they own or co-own the dogs, campaign them through a handler, let the other owners deal with the stress of whelping & puppies but then “retire” the dogs in their own home once the dogs are older and their show/breeding careers are done. And frankly it’s a pretty sweet situation - keeps the breed knowledge available for the younger breeders, keeps the older folks socializing, and gives retired/veteran dogs a sure place to land.

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