[QUOTE=Sswor;8220506]
Are you not in the least bit happy that this puppy, from such a high risk situation, now has a fantastic home and is at least one less dog out there that will darken your rescuing doorstep in the future?[/QUOTE]
Of course I’m happy that the dog is no longer in danger. I no longer work in rescue, but people who do really are in it for the dogs – it’s the breeders they hate.
Arizona, If I had to choose, I’d rather benefit dogs then the minority of breeders who would be angry about having to answer to standards ( the way most businesses have to).
[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;8220542]
Oh good grief! This sounds like one of the many vets who have been brainwashed to think ALL breeders are bad! First of all, a good breeder will establish a good working and professional relationship with their vet…I have worked with my vet for over 10 years. She and I discuss the vaccine protocols and also other health issues both general and breed specific to my dogs. She has always taken my word on my vaccination schedule (which follows the AVMA protocol).
We also have a local vet who would NOT take my records of my shots and wanted to revaccinate my dog! I left to never return and made sure my other dog people knew about this! A good vet will work with a breeder, not trash them unless warranted…[/QUOTE]
But where do you get your vaccines? Many breeders (at least in the area) go down to Tractor Supply or the local pet supply place and pick up however many they need. How do they know that those vaccines didn’t sit out for hours waiting to be unpacked and get too hot before they buy them? Even if the dog owner did everything correct in handling it’s worthless if the company before them dropped the ball. I can honestly say in all my years as a vet tech at a busy hospital I have seen exactly one dog come down with parvo after receiving all of his puppy shots from a vet. I’ve lost count of the number of “owner vaccinated” parvo cases we have seen. Unfortunately the odds are not in the dogs favor. Heck I had one woman call me because she gave her own vaccine and then realized there were two bottles she was supposed to mix before giving. :eek:
When I worked in general practice we charged one exam fee per litter of pups and they got a 15% discount on vaccines and such. We had several very high quality breeders as clients and the majority took advantage of this, they were able to send their pups off with a written vet exam, a fully loaded free puppy pack and a couple months of flea/tick preventative and heartworm. It just made life easier for everyone.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8220228]
What exactly do you think your perfect world breeder is going to do to “guarantee” a live animal’s health?[/QUOTE]
Refund part or all of the puppy buyer’s money and seriously re-evaluate their breeding stock. And possibly reach out to the owners of the other puppies in the litter. Irresponsible breeders do none of those things.
Sswor, the reason people are up-in-arms is because you willingly financially supported a breeding operation that is most likely irresponsible. I suppose there is a chance that it is not, but all information that you have offered up so far (intentional mixed breeding, puppy sold through a broker, etc) go entirely against the grain of what is widely accepted as responsible breeder behavior.
No one is unhappy that your puppy is in a loving home. The problem is what MsM said:
The problem is that you have “proved” to the breeder that breeding dogs in this “high risk situation” is profitable. And worth doing again. And again.
I like to believe that the people who buy from irresponsible breeders don’t know better. It makes me sad to know that people who do know better buy from them as well.
I understand wanting a puppy “RIGHT NOW,” but as an adult I also recognize that while immediate gratification is satisfying it is not always possible. For me, there is an ethical line in the sand where I would not willfully give financial support to propagate the business of an irresponsible breeder just to feed my need for immediate gratification.
If “RIGHT NOW” is the only time that will be perfect for a new puppy in the foreseeable future, and I could not find what I was looking for from a responsible breeder, I would either resign myself to not getting a puppy or I would take a long hard look at what I was willing to compromise to get what I was looking for (a different breed, an older dog, widening my geographical parameters).
You list many excuses why health tests might not be performed:
Or is Amish and doesn’t know. Or doesn’t have access to a vet that can perform the required testing. Or doesn’t agree with you that it is necessary/worth it. Or the puppy was an accident. There’s room in the real world for all sorts of other explanations besides yours.
To me, none of those things are worthy enough excuses to make me offer my financial support to someone. I do not consider ignorance to the ethical standards of breeding to excuse someone from producing animals they can be confident are healthy.
Any vet, even one without access to specialized equipment, should have the basic knowledge to know it’s important to be proof-positive of health before breeding a dog.
This isn’t about breeding only dogs with fancy pedigrees, it’s about caring enough to want to eliminate health problems from the gene pool to spare future dogs considerable pain and suffering. If someone has seen a dog suffering tremendously from a hereditary problem (bad hips, bad elbows, bad knees, a bleeding disorder, progressive blindness, progressive paralysis etc) and decided testing for those things to prevent future suffering isn’t worth it… how can you possibly say that individual is not an irresponsible breeder?
Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My own opinion (and it appears the opinions of many in this thread) is that it is unethical buying a puppy through a source that appears at face value to be operating for profit and without regard to animal well-being. This opinion is based on my understanding of (1) the science supporting the heritability of health/temperament issues, and (2) the ethical standards/stances of all major veterinary and humane organizations (not to mention all organized dog clubs of which I am aware).
Regardless of how good a life I might offer that dog, the fact of the matter is simply that buying from such a source provides financial support and bottom-line encouragement to the establishments that are operating outside of literally all accepted best-practices of breeding.
People in this thread are upset because you appear to have known better, but supported one of these organizations to satisfy your urge for instant gratification.
You’re obviously entitled to buy a dog from whomever you please, for whatever reason you want. However, it is absolutely unrealistic of you to expect people who do support industry best-practices to not speak up when you publicly share your story of willfully supporting a part of the industry we are trying to stamp out.
You aren’t going to change your mind, and neither are your non-supporters. What’s done is done. You own the dog now and I’m glad things are going well so far, but I don’t want anyone to read this thread now or down the road and come to the conclusion that there is some circumstance under which the larger dog community ever supports purchasing a dog from an irresponsible breeder.
Wow. It kind of upsets me to know that COTH would jump on me if I came on here and excitedly posted about my new Craigslist find puppy.
Perhaps it was just how the OP went about phrasing it?
Thank you
For this outstanding post.
[QUOTE=supaflyskye;8221343]
Wow. It kind of upsets me to know that COTH would jump on me if I came on here and excitedly posted about my new Craigslist find puppy.
Perhaps it was just how the OP went about phrasing it?[/QUOTE]
I cannot speak for others, but for me what is upsetting is not that the OP bought a puppy from a less-than-ideal breeder. I could never be upset with someone for not knowing better as a puppy buyer.
Personally I find it in poor taste that the OP’s attitude is, “I know all the reasons XYZ why dog enthusiasts and every professional canine organization are opposed to breeding that does not adhere to certain responsible guidelines, but I am disregarding all scientific and professional evidence to satisfy my need for instant gratification.”
To me, that is a short sighted opinion from the perspective of the future health and longevity of the animal I am purchasing, as well as from the perspective of wanting to support only responsible breeders who have had medical tests done to ensure they are not producing a new generation of dogs suffering from heritable diseases.
Meanwhile, a rescue will accept the puppies from any of these crappy breeders, even seeking then out through whatever channels (to keep them out of pet stores or whatever excuse they have) giving the breeders a super ‘plan b’ for any pups that don’t sell.
The rescuer gets patted on the back for this, and then restricts people from acquiring the dogs, in the dog’s best interest, of course, while the person who went direct to the source is castigated and should apparently have known better.
Hmm. Does no one else see the problems here? There are definitely more rescues popping up all the time, and the ones around here have plenty of puppies.
Irresponsible breeders are going to keep doing what they do, as long as there are no consequences. At least without the institutional rescue option, they’d have to deal with their own unsold puppies and might think twice next time. I like the idea of SOME rescues… Which operates more like breed enthusiast networks and place the odd dog… But in my area, some of the rescues are large scale operations that go out of country to acquire dogs when the local supply isn’t keeping them full. I find the whole concept of those places disgusting.
Rubygirl do you suggest that rescues refuse to take in the puppies? I have no problem with that, but then along with, it , a campaign to ALSO get people to stop buying a puppy for a few years…encourage them to adopt a dog instead, until the healthy, good disposition dogs in shelters are no longer languishing in cages and being euthanized on mass scale.
IF breeders, including reputable breeders cared about DOGS in general, and not just THEIR BREED or wallet, they would join the effort to curb over breeding even if it means they not breed litters for a couple of years.
Imo , blaming rescues for the over population of dogs, poorly bred puppies etc is absurd. They are trying to help and even if some are misguided but most are manned by volunteers and they see and have to deal with the effects of dumping, bad breeding, neglect etc.
People, aka us, have to put aside OUR needs for the needs of dogs…ME ME ME, me, I must have this breed, I must have a puppy, I must have a puppy tomorrow.
If we really put our actions where words are, re a long term solution to a problem, people would stop buying puppies and adopt one of the nice, healthy dogs available until the over supply is gone. That would be the only way to stop over breeding. They can’t sell them, they wont breed them.
If rescues closed their doors to puppies from breeders which maybe they should do, the breeders would dump in county shelters , or horde or kill the excess pups ( which some do now anyway) Blaming the rescues is not doing anything to solve the root of the problem because the breeders would keep at it regardless.
The problem is over breeding and the people who fuel it by insisting on buying puppies when they know full well lots of nice dogs at shelters are being euthanized, but it’s all about them, they must have puppy. They should look in the mirror instead of trashing a rescue.
Adding to problem may be a lack of mandatory spay /neuter laws or consequences but I am not an expert in that area so cant’ go too far in how much that impacts.
Honestly, it isn’t the job of people wanting a puppy to go and get a shelter dog…who likely came from an even worse breeder anyway. Particularly when the prospective owners have inquirer at local rescues and found them to have questionable or unreasonable adoption practices, which is the entire reason for this thread. I wasnt looking for a puppy this last time. I got a seven month old, directly from the last owner…because most of the rescues I contacted had unreasonable requirements (two of the seven were more reasonable, but only had dogs with serious health problems to offer. )
If you want to encourage people to go and get rescue/shelter dogs, the people on the frontline for adoption need to “look in a mirror” themselves. How many stories do you need to hear from people dealing with idiotic rescue policies? Remember, you’re pretty restricted to local areas when looking for one.
And country wood, I would way rather see a family go and blue a puppy of suitable type and breed from somewhere online with maybe less than ideal breeding prractices than end up talking an adult dog of poor fit. Our county shelter is packed with husky mixes. They make poor dogs for city dwelling families, a lot of the time. The family would generally have a much easier time with a “pet” breed. Having an easier time leads to a much better chance at a permanent home.
Two of the seven rescues local to me are warehousing pit bull and bully mixes. That dog generally struggles in our climate, and is totally unsuitable for the needs of anyone looking for a farm dog (bully breeds have to have somewhere heated for most of the year here, being short coated.)
Getting pissy with the people out there, like me, who make perfectly reasonable homes for one dog at a time DRIVES US AWAY FROM ALL RESCUES.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8221483]
Honestly, it isn’t the job of people wanting a puppy to go and get a shelter dog…
Then whose “job” is it? WHO is supposed to stop the demand of breeding? The actions of consumers is the only way to do it barring nationwide tough legislation. And since 2 out of 3 puppies end up being re homed at some point in their lives, letting everyone indulge themselves with a puppy is not working out is it.
who likely came from an even worse breeder anyway. Particularly when the prospective owners have inquirer at local rescues and found them to have questionable or unreasonable adoption practices, which is the entire reason for this thread. I wasnt looking for a puppy this last time. I got a seven month old, directly from the last owner…because most of the rescues I contacted had unreasonable requirements (two of the seven were more reasonable, but only had dogs with serious health problems to offer. )
If you want to encourage people to go and get rescue/shelter dogs, the people on the frontline for adoption need to “look in a mirror” themselves. How many stories do you need to hear from people dealing with idiotic rescue policies? Remember, you’re pretty restricted to local areas when looking for one.[/QUOTE]
I hear very few stories about idiot rescue policies they mostly seem to be from the same few people on this thread. Nearly every county has shelters so people can skip rescues if they want to adopt if there are no good rescues in their area.
OK, you win. People wanting dogs are assholes if they don’t go to a shelter to get one. This could be why you don’t seem to hear very many stories though, just putting that out there for ya.
I am not a rescuer by profession or volunteer and you were anti rescue league before my posts.
I agree, many shelters or rescues or full of breeds/mixes many don’t want or can’t handle. Imo there should be national spay and neuter laws and licenses for breeding and anyone who violates them gets a hefty fine. That would clean up the problem fast imo. Rescues are like a finger stuck in a dam…some do a great job, some a mediocre job and some a horrible job…but expecting them to solve the problem and then dumping on them for not solving a problem they did not create takes away from finding real solutions to the problem
I can tell you with 100% certainty that your posts did nothing to change my original opinions. Nor mine yours.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8221502]
And country wood, I would way rather see a family go and blue a puppy of suitable type and breed from somewhere online with maybe less than ideal breeding prractices than end up talking an adult dog of poor fit. Our county shelter is packed with husky mixes. They make poor dogs for city dwelling families, a lot of the time. The family would generally have a much easier time with a “pet” breed. Having an easier time leads to a much better chance at a permanent home. [/QUOTE]
But the third option you didn’t list is most ideal: getting a puppy from a reputable breeder.
Sure, there are some crazies out there with unreasonably high standards, but if a breed is a good fit for a family’s lifestyle they should not have any issue procuring a dog from a good breeder. Although I’m sure it has happened, I’ve never met anyone who is seeking a dog appropriate for their lifestyle who has been unable to find a responsible breeder who would sell them a dog.
If a ton of responsible breeders turn someone down for a puppy, IMO they should be re-evaluating their circumstance and asking themselves if a different breed would be a better fit.
Hopeless then isn’t it?
What is your opinion, that anyone and everyone is entitled to keep buying puppies no matter how much over supply it creates?
If your opinion is that most rescues suck , maybe they do, or at least for those that must have a puppy or one of a certain breed the moment they want it.
Why not put forward your solution instead of dumping over and over on rescues?
Steering people toward reputable breeders is a solution but only a minor one. They charge too much money for many folks to buy from and face competition from the less responsible breeders who charge less. To the avg person, one cute puppy looks similar to another and even if they are dimly aware of puppy mills they convince themselves their purchase is not the one feeding it.
I am in favor of breeding license laws which by default would favor reputable breeders who are not turning out volume now so they would be helped by the laws.
We can start with Craigslist I understand there is a petition online aganst its stupid ads about "rehoming " puppies. I work at my own business and not had time to find the petition online.
[QUOTE=Lazy Palomino Hunter;8221531]
But the third option you didn’t list is most ideal: getting a puppy from a reputable breeder.
Sure, there are some crazies out there with unreasonably high standards, but if a breed is a good fit for a family’s lifestyle they should not have any issue procuring a dog from a good breeder. Although I’m sure it has happened, I’ve never met anyone who is seeking a dog appropriate for their lifestyle who has been unable to find a responsible breeder who would sell them a dog.
If a ton of responsible breeders turn someone down for a puppy, IMO they should be re-evaluating their circumstance and asking themselves if a different breed would be a better fit.[/QUOTE]
Countrywood is opposed to breeders in some posts. It’s not totally clear what average people are supposed to do on that front, in other posts CW seems ok with SOME breeders.
I think it is great to buy a dog from a breeder, particularly if you want a working breed. Ideally the parents should work. That’s where we bought our LGD, and we picked that breeder because we loved both the parents, who were second generation doing the same job we wanted. Of course, that breeder did his own vaccines and the dogs aren’t registered, so from posts here, I doubt very much that “counts” as responsible.
I do think sometimes people get turned off the very high end breeders not because they are “turned down” but because the waiting lists can be very long and some of the sales contracts a little intimidating, especially breeds with small litters. You could be waiting Many years to own a puppy from that breeder. Yes, instant puppy buying is pretty irresponsible, but waiting many, many years to maybe get part ownership of a fancy dog is also not really easy to swallow. In popular breeds, that’s much less an issue, I think, especially larger litters where there are more “pet quality” prospects each time.
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