Rescue organizations keep puppy mills in business--open vent/rant

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8221538]
Steering people toward reputable breeders is a solution but only a minor one. They charge too much money for many folks to buy from and face competition from the less responsible breeders who charge less. To the avg person, one cute puppy looks similar to another and even if they are dimly aware of puppy mills they convince themselves their purchase is not the one feeding it.[/QUOTE]

This is where education comes in.

The high initial purchase price of a puppy from a reputable breeder is “paid back” over the life of the dog in better temperament, fewer vet bills, and easier training/fewer training bills. That initial purchase price also “buys you” the ongoing support and knowledge of the puppy’s breeder, who will continue to support you for the life of the dog.

I have helped many, many friends find dogs, and I universally recommend against getting puppies of poor or unknown breeding simply because temperament is very difficult to evaluate. My standard recommendation is a young adult re-home from a good breeder, followed by an adult rescue, followed by a puppy from a responsible breeder.

I’ve found that when you show someone the cost of a femoral osteotomy or prevalence and mortality rates for things like bleeding disorders, they understand quickly the long-term value of a good breeder.

Unless you’re looking for a super duper rare breed, long waiting lists can be avoided by asking for recommendations and litters that the good breeders are aware of. I own a dog whose breed is quite rare (~300 dogs born each year in the US), and I was able to find and put a deposit down on an exceptionally well bred puppy within a week of starting to look. I had to be willing to fly the puppy to me, but it was worth it to get a dog in the time frame I was looking for.

Lazy, I agree with you, but your view is not enough to reach the masses of people fine with buying cheap puppies off craigslist, pet shops and brokers. How can you possibly reach enough of these folks with your message to make a difference…especially as the ones if their pup develops health problems later ignore it or dump it instead of treating said problem.

And add in the problem of people who dont spay and neuter and don’t even make money breeding yet have no problem with litters and giving puppies away because it all seems so cute or whatever is in their minds.

laws are needed imo, but I agree educating people can help it has put a dent in pet shops carrying puppies but now they just advertise on craigslist.

I think that if you want a good pet dog of a popular breed, it’s a pretty easy sell (today, versus my little dog of 25 years ago) to direct the average person to a good breeder. I’ve never heard of anyone having a hard time getting a Lab or Golden, for example, and most of my pet dog owning friends were happy to pay a little more with what they learned about hips/knees.

The working dog thing seems trickier, at least here, there is a big divide between “show” Lgds versus the ones you buy from sheep and goat farmers, who tend to not be registered, but are kind of “proven”… It’s not that a person doesnt WANT to go to a breeder with all the bells and whistles, but there just aren’t many options in the reasonably-travellable area. The show breeder in my area (I found one within 12 hours) didn’t have a litter planned at all, and the nine page application was…much more targeted to show or housepet people. That’s who they wanted as clients… Fine. But people wanting working dogs are going to go somewhere.

Neither group seems to be the type of dog recycled through the shelters, mind you. I’m not sure who is breeding all these bully crosses in my area, for example, but rescue populations seem to indicate that not enough people are buying them.

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8220575]
Arizona, If I had to choose, I’d rather benefit dogs then the minority of breeders who would be angry about having to answer to standards ( the way most businesses have to).[/QUOTE]

There are already laws in existence to protect the dogs. Much of the proposed legislation is to shut down the responsible breeders like myself. I whelp and raise my puppies in my home, under some proposed legislation, my house would be deemed substandard! I understand the concerns many, like you have, I have the same myself. But there are movements afoot, like those from PETA and HSUS, who want nothing more than to shut down ALL breeding. That is my concern. No laws will ever shut down BYBs as they cannot be found as easily as breeders such as I. But once you shut down me and others like me, where will you get the healthy, correct (form follows function) purebred dogs?

Breeders like I, who do all health testing available, support ongoing canine health research both monetarily and with tissue and blood samples, who breed both physically and mentally healthy dogs, and who will take back ANY dog sold or produced by one of my stud dogs, will cease to exist as the laws being pushed would make it impossible to continue to breed.

That is my fear.

[QUOTE=Lazy Palomino Hunter;8221556]

I have helped many, many friends find dogs, and I universally recommend against getting puppies of poor or unknown breeding simply because temperament is very difficult to evaluate. My standard recommendation is a young adult re-home from a good breeder, followed by an adult rescue, followed by a puppy from a responsible breeder.[/QUOTE]

This is what we did. When my last dog passed away (puppy bred from a litter at home - through a reputable breeder), that same reputable breeder (friend of family) offered up a 2yo saint bernard female she had. She was a pick of a litter from a previous litter, so she is a beautiful, well-bred dog but the breeder just had too many dogs at the time and couldn’t give her the attention she needed. We seriously lucked out.

We were looking at local saint bernard rescues before Dottie was offered up to us.

While there were some downsides to this - kennel girl meant not house trained and minimal obedience training, lack of socialization, still gets anxious out in some public situations; She is still a wonderful, sweet girl and is so gorgeous, heads turn when we go places. She loves living in a home, in our home. I love having her with us.

We could have shown her but didn’t (thank you, sbca politics). We bred one litter from her. The puppies just turned one year a couple weeks ago.

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;8220825]
But where do you get your vaccines? Many breeders (at least in the area) go down to Tractor Supply or the local pet supply place and pick up however many they need. How do they know that those vaccines didn’t sit out for hours waiting to be unpacked and get too hot before they buy them? Even if the dog owner did everything correct in handling it’s worthless if the company before them dropped the ball. I can honestly say in all my years as a vet tech at a busy hospital I have seen exactly one dog come down with parvo after receiving all of his puppy shots from a vet. I’ve lost count of the number of “owner vaccinated” parvo cases we have seen. Unfortunately the odds are not in the dogs favor. Heck I had one woman call me because she gave her own vaccine and then realized there were two bottles she was supposed to mix before giving. :eek:
.[/QUOTE]

I get my vaccines through vet supply companies and pay for the overnight refridge pack, the vaccines and cold packs are still cold when they arrive at my place. I would NEVER buy from a local feed store - ugh. I can say in over 25 years of doing my own vaccines, I have never had an issue.

Believe me, when I say there are some people that should not do their own vaccines, much less even own dogs… But there are also many breeders who are educated and know how to properly handle vaccines, etc.

As I said before, it is very important to have a good relationship with your vet, especially if you are a responsible breeder and care about the health of your dogs…

As much as you say that there are breeders who should not be doing their own vaccines, there are also vets who care more about their profit than about the health of their patients! Not all owners are saints, neither are all vets…

The largest puppy millers would easily meet the ‘USDA standards proposed’ because the have regulation size kennels in huge concrete floored warehouse type buildings (so climate control is possible) are sanitary, feed and water adequately, have registered (not necessarily quality) stock and veterinarians do the routine vaccinations, etc.

A Lovely confinement operation for dogs, with a money back ‘health’ guarantee.
http://www.thehuntecorporation.com/

And REAL breeders of quality, home reared, health and temperament tested, from proven performance stock typical of their breed will be out of their hobby because they won’t commercialize their dog rearing.

‘For the dogs’, indeed.

Arizona, if you are one of the good breeders as you say you are, why would “you” be shut down? your puppy mill competition and true byb would be shut down.

The laws ( at least the ones I envision) would not support puppy mills because the laws would limit volume of litters and have minimum adequate space of runs and animals not confined in cages etc.

Dreaming I suppose…

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8221909]
Arizona, if you are one of the good breeders as you say you are, why would “you” be shut down? your puppy mill competition and true byb would be shut down.

The laws ( at least the ones I envision) would not support puppy mills because the laws would limit volume of litters and have minimum adequate space of runs and animals not confined in cages etc.

Dreaming I suppose…[/QUOTE]

‘Animals confined in cages’
Translation: you can’t put your dog in a crate.

BTW, there had been legislation on the table in the past, demanding kennels for breeding stock.

Too bad, the good guys hardly ever use kennels, although they have a kennel name.

The devil is in the detail.

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8221570]

Neither group seems to be the type of dog recycled through the shelters, mind you. I’m not sure who is breeding all these bully crosses in my area, for example, but rescue populations seem to indicate that not enough people are buying them.[/QUOTE]

Where are you located? My local shelters currently have labs, chihuahuas, pit bulls, fuzzy indeterminate terriers, rat terriers, boxers, corgis, border collies, catahoulas, poodles, cattle dogs, and that’s after only two pages of petfinder browsing. Being in CA, the most common shelter breed is chihuahua, but there are many others available. All can be adopted today, no crazy ‘you must wear blue on Tuesdays’ requirements.

The Hunte corporation IS a puppy mill. And it meets all current and proposed regulations.

How big is a ‘cage’? Is an outdoor dog run translatable as a ‘cage’; because if so, there are plenty of active dogs that will have much tougher lives without them.

‘Limit volume of litters’?
Since when is a person of good repute and a 20 year history in a breed producing performance prospects from more than 5 litters a year suddenly NOT a good breeder, while if they only produced 2 they would still be ‘good’?

Despite the fact that none of their ‘product’ ever made it’s way to a shelter or rescue situation during it’s life, dogs are tattooed or micro-chip ID’d etc.

If the carefully bred dogs aren’t making it into the shelters and rescues guess which ones are and where they are coming from?
Careless, irresponsible, individual OWNERS of the stray, the dumped, the unconfined the untrained, the unsocialized, the poorly bred.

I’ve gotten half my dogs from shelters. They were fine dogs.
Where they cam from - their immediate past owners - were not ideal dog owners; or perhaps fell on hard times, but mostly just found the dog(s) inconvenient.

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8222083]
‘Animals confined in cages’
Translation: you can’t put your dog in a crate.

BTW, there had been legislation on the table in the past, demanding kennels for breeding stock.

Too bad, the good guys hardly ever use kennels, although they have a kennel name.

The devil is in the detail.[/QUOTE]

Mine live in my house as companions. As I have read them, the vintage wood flooring (house circa 1785) would make it impossible for me to meet USDA regulations. The bedroom is currently the only fully air conditioned room in the house, pregnant girls sleep in bed with me. We have a cement floored barn of much newer construction that we have considered building a kennel in strictly for “show” purposes.

Paraphrasing from by Countrywood: “Because 2 out of 3 puppies end up rehomed in their lifetimes…”

Honestly curious where this statistic comes from?

[QUOTE=BLBGP;8222105]
Where are you located? My local shelters currently have labs, chihuahuas, pit bulls, fuzzy indeterminate terriers, rat terriers, boxers, corgis, border collies, catahoulas, poodles, cattle dogs, and that’s after only two pages of petfinder browsing. Being in CA, the most common shelter breed is chihuahua, but there are many others available. All can be adopted today, no crazy ‘you must wear blue on Tuesdays’ requirements.[/QUOTE]

Northern Alberta. Not many small dogs right now, but according to my dog friends that can vary, our shelters suffer “trend” surrenders too. Shepherd/husky/indeterminate were the prevailing types a few weeks ago, and then the aforementioned bully/pit rescues. The place that imports from Mexico seems to bring in smallish mixed breeds… Dogs I associate with streets in most warm countries. They had about eight on their website.

Had one person offer me a rottweiler female that they were retiring from breeding, but I just can’t see that breed living outside very well, so I didn’t think that would work either.

We did find one rescue willing to talk to us, they had the usual husky types as well as a five year old saint (apparently ouchy hips) and an older Pyrenees, but following up on a kijiji ad the same day, we met the Pyrenees cross pup that the owners were rehoming (they’d gotten her from a rescue that wouldn’t have approved us six months before) and my husband loved her, so we ended up with her. She’s working out so far, nice dog, nice former owners. They were just moving into town and didnt think it would be fair to her.

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8222201]
Mine live in my house as companions. As I have read them, the vintage wood flooring (house circa 1785) would make it impossible for me to meet USDA regulations. The bedroom is currently the only fully air conditioned room in the house, pregnant girls sleep in bed with me. We have a cement floored barn of much newer construction that we have considered building a kennel in strictly for “show” purposes.[/QUOTE]

My point exactly.
Those regulations, well meant hurt foremost the small guy who is not in it for the money.
And a certain aspect of the industry (not the millers, good lord no, but the rescuers) like to keep the wording this fluffy and broad!
So it does apply to the guy with a couple of breeding bitches, a couple dogs, and some off spring, waiting in the wings for titles and to fill the slots vacated by aging stock.

Sswor–did you get a pup yet?

A local shelter sent out an SOS last night on the ten o’clock news–they’ve had 84 cats and dogs come into the shelter in just the first four days in July! :eek:

The one in three was told to a puppy class by a trainer…I presume from his years in the field it is not a statistic . I was not able to find statistics on it doing a quick interment search

Why do folks assume dog breeding laws would be USDA based…dogs are pets not livestock one assumes laws limiting litters per breeder or min humane conditions would be pet based not livestock based. It’s just an idea…because licensing t would define who is breeding and thus can set up mandatory spay and neuter for anyone owning animals not licensed to breed.

Or, just keep things as they are with thousands of unwatned puppies and dogs and shelters over flowing. I have not heard a single idea from those who breed or want instant access to puppies tomorrow offer any idea of a solution

Statistics from the ASPCA:

Approximately 7.6 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year. Of those, approximately 3.9 million are dogs and 3.4 million are cats. Each year, approximately 2.7 million animals are euthanized (1.2 million dogs and 1.4 million cats).

You would think those of use who love and care for our pets would be concerned about those numbers and would all work to make the changes necessary to lower them.

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8222618]

Why do folks assume dog breeding laws would be USDA based…dogs are pets not livestock one assumes laws limiting litters per breeder or min humane conditions would be pet based not livestock based. It’s just an idea…because licensing t would define who is breeding and thus can set up mandatory spay and neuter for anyone owning animals not licensed to breed.

Or, just keep things as they are with thousands of unwatned puppies and dogs and shelters over flowing. I have not heard a single idea from those who breed or want instant access to puppies tomorrow offer any idea of a solution[/QUOTE]

who else would oversee it?

And because there are tons of Pits in the shelter, I can’t have a Dalmatian?
(I am stirring clear of anything resembling a Pit, or similar dog, I might have to relocate during it’s lifetime to a country where those are on the index and prohibitively expensive to license.)

Fine, but if that’s the minimum standard of care, it must be universally enforced.

What you just envisioned will put rescues and shelters out of business. I can’t recall ever visiting a shelter that wasn’t housing their dogs in cages and small kennels. No-kill shelters keep less adoptable dogs in those conditions for years, while denying adopters who are offering the dog a significant UPGRADE… simply because the adopter’s situation isn’t perfect in every conceivable way. It’s not right.

Any shelter that experiences hold times longer than a month or two should be displaying the same standard of care they require of prospective adopters.