Absolutely I support spay neuter , but that is in a sense regulating Breeders, because if spay/neuter was enforced it would by default limit breeding.
There are always those who evade laws but if penalties are higher and consequences greater it reduces the number of those who evade.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8223491]
Absolutely I support spay neuter , but that is in a sense regulating Breeders, because if spay/neuter was enforced it would by default limit breeding.
There are always those who evade laws but if penalties are higher and consequences greater it reduces the number of those who evade.[/QUOTE]
If there is funding for enforcement and a change in peer opinion towards evaders that reduces the number of those who evade.
Otherwise, the ‘legal’ enforcers simply go to those who appear to be lapsed (dog dies) on their licensing and attempt to collect from them.
They do not bother the never-compliant. They do not have time or funding to get around to those: and were to start? Neighborhood canvassing door to door?
I fail to see how penalizing a (pick a breed) Dalmation breeder with 2 adult females, (one of whom is a return from a co-owner’s broken marriage/lifestyle upset that may or may not be permanent) a senior and 2 juvenile hopefuls that are not neutered and who live in the breeder’s home is going to stop the pit-crosses or lil’ fluffy crosses from flooding the shelters.
Hint: the Dalmation breeder has no control, nor responsibility to control the irresponsible breeder turning out unstable pups like an assembly line that she never had any association or even commonality with other than they are dog owners.
Would you regulate ALL homeowners with teenagers because there are some who shelter teenagers that are criminals? How does a homeowner in Florida have anything to do with a homeowner in Ohio or one in New York?
Good dog breeders that care for their dogs and try their best to get them into best homes are not guilty of anything. They are NOT in any sort of competition with shelters or rescues; their clientele is quite different.
To imply that they are Guilty of the whole unwanted pet mess because they are dog breeders and therefore in the same ‘group’ as chi-jack-husky let’s let doggie have cyute puppeez: is witchhunting and nothing else.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8223357]
The analogy is rescue dogs import to stay full? They are taking in overflow from other areas. We all would love to see rescues shut down which would happen if there were not constant stream of disposed of dogs /puppies to fill them .
I fully agree that people disposing of dogs /pets is a huge problem. Where did all the disposable dogs come from? Why are so many around? Would spay/neuter/breeding changes result in lower dog numbers?[/QUOTE]
The statistics I have read say that most people get dogs ‘from a friend’, which means they ask around and their circle of friends finds someone ‘with a litter’ or a dog that ‘isn’t right for us’.
There are SO MANY people who will buy for $50 or $200 (it’s pedigreed or RARE!!!) or take a free puppy without thinking how it will impact their lives: no crate, no fence, no training other than yelling at the pup or smacking it if it does ‘the wrong thing’.
Then pup grows out of cute and cuddly and is just too much bother. And here comes the word of mouth to everyone that dog needs a home. Followed by 'We just had to get rid of it."
I’ve had people assume that since I like dogs and seem to have space I’d love to have their puppy that grew into a problem -sorry, no.
When people have some sort of ID on every dog (tattoo or whatever) and when people understand that a dog, while not human still represents a 10-16 year commitment, and while they own the dog it is their responsibility (legally) then perhaps there will be less of a market for ‘impulse’ pups and just-because breedings.
I’m not really holding out much hope for that.
Many if not most people do rush to neuter their pet dog. Neutering hasn’t stopped the flood because those who let their dogs have pups or breed wrecks don’t and won’t neuter.
Forcing people who give up pups to shelter to neuter ALL their female dogs MIGHT make a small dent; but the likely outcome of that is killing the unwanted pups at home or handing them off to the neighborhood kids (in another neighborhood than breeder’s).
I’ve had un-neutered dogs of either sex all my life and no litter from any -because I didn’t choose to breed them. I have unneutered dogs now that I may breed in the future - if they are good enough. They are not contributing to the dog overbreeding, nor am I. I pay extra for them in fees that go to local shelter, I contribute when I shop at stores…
I am obviously the ENEMY. I am a breeder.
Okay…if animal lovers on this board can’t have a discussion that leads to a solution that’s the way it is. Good luck all with your personal pets.
^ Generations of animal lovers before us have not been able to come up w/ a solution …you expect COTH to? We’re pretty good, but we’re not that great. :lol:
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8223491]
Absolutely I support spay neuter , but that is in a sense regulating Breeders, because if spay/neuter was enforced it would by default limit breeding.[/QUOTE]
No, you have to get pet owners to think it is better to spay and neuter. It’s not about breeders spaying/neuter their dogs.
I’m not trying to belittle your beliefs - I agree with the theory of them. Yes, in theory if we could stem the flow of puppies, we might be able to prevent unwanted pets in shelters and rescues.
But I think in reality the demand for puppies will always persist. Most people like dogs; puppies are easy to love…and humans don’t ever think that what applies to “most people” should apply to them. (E.g. I would never drop a puppy off at a shelter)…and yet…shelters are full of dogs and puppies.
If only there was an easy answer…we wouldn’t be having any of this discussion. This is a complex issue, not just about breeders, or owners, or shelters…etc. It’s a complicated system of supply and demand and fueled by human opinions - which are all over the place.
Some people really feel it is totally ok to take a dog “that isn’t working out” and drop it at the shelter. Limiting breeders will never change that part of the equation.
Just want to comment…this complex system of supply and demand and different opinions - this is exactly what turns some people from being normal caring individuals into rabid rescue enthusiasts, and others back away from rescue work because of total burnout. I know people at both extremes and they are both sad.
And editing again to add: this is why people responded so vehemently to the OP. Not supporting a bad breeder is one of the few things people can do to try to make a difference. It’s a tiny thing, but it’s something.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8223491]
Absolutely I support spay neuter , but that is in a sense regulating Breeders, because if spay/neuter was enforced it would by default limit breeding.
There are always those who evade laws but if penalties are higher and consequences greater it reduces the number of those who evade.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know where you are getting the idea that the northeast has mandatory s/n laws and limits on breeding. Ma has a very low rate of native dogs in shelters. Most dogs in shelters are being imported from the south. Education, promotion of s/n by the MSPCA, and esp leash laws have done a lot to curb indiscriminate breeding by dogs roaming the streets. There is no requirement for me a private pet owner to s/n my dogs. Yes my licensing fee is higher for an intact animal but not by much.
I never heard of any regulations affecting private breeders in this state except for kennel regulations.
S/n is mandatory for dogs being adopted from shelters but no one else.
I’ll continue to go to the Amish when I need a puppy and I’ll recommend my niece do the same.
Ps. we can’t even get people to take care of their own children. Or elderly parents. Or disabled family members. There will always be pet overpopulation because there will always be irresponsible people. I do not need to do anything about the pet overpopulation problem as I do not contribute to it. I get a dog, I spay/neuter, and I keep it for life. There is no pet overpopulation in my yard, but there was a recent pet under-population problem that Mr. Yoder helped me rectify last week.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8223847]
I do not need to do anything about the pet overpopulation problem as I do not contribute to it.[/QUOTE]
Argh. :mad: Case in point.
(Yes, you DID. You knowingly supported an “overpopulating” breeder.)
This is my opinion. I realize it’s not yours. No sense in opening up this discussion again since we already had it.
[QUOTE=S1969;8223954]
Argh. :mad: Case in point.
(Yes, you DID. You knowingly supported an “overpopulating” breeder.)
This is my opinion. I realize it’s not yours. No sense in opening up this discussion again since we already had it.[/QUOTE]
Oh you’re full of hot air. You know nothing of Mr. Amish nor his “breeding” practices. You just know how to conjure up assumptions and then go off the deep end foaming at the mouth about them. For all you know he has one bitch and she got oops knocked up by the neighbors stock dog. I suppose you’d be happier if he just drowned the puppies instead of selling them.
Swor you don’t know anything about his breeding operation either, since you did not visit it .
Yes so strangers on the internet know more then me.
Oh wait, no they don’t. You’re another one full of assumptions spouting off about fabricated details and getting yourself all worked up about your own imagined horrors; trying to shove and bend and force me to fit into the one and only mold you got in your head.
Go save[/hoard] some puppies. Why are you wasting your time on this thread? I’m sure there’s a puppymill somewhere that needs you to dress up in a ninja suit and raid under cover of darkness. After all, if you’re not part of the solution, countrywood, you are the problem. And I don’t see your constant harassment here as solving anything, considering you have pretty much single-handedly made rescuers out to look like a bunch of control freaks living in fantasy land.
Wow, this devolved… although, I suppose that should be expected when the OP is a vent/rant.
The initiative to use taxpayer money to pay for cheap spays & neuters for the community hasn’t been nearly as effective in reducing pet overpopulation as people had hoped. I’d spay any dog I own because of the health problems associated with intact females. I’d be less inclined to neuter, because the health issues aren’t nearly the same as females. I don’t think there will be a significant change in pet overpopulation nationwide unless we can create a culture of responsible people who make lifetime commitments to their animals.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8224004]
Oh you’re full of hot air. You know nothing of Mr. Amish nor his “breeding” practices. You just know how to conjure up assumptions and then go off the deep end foaming at the mouth about them. For all you know he has one bitch and she got oops knocked up by the neighbors stock dog. I suppose you’d be happier if he just drowned the puppies instead of selling them.[/QUOTE]
You know nothing of his breeding practices either. For all you know his barn has 50 brood bitches that live in cages.
To be honest - yes, I’d be happier if a bad breeder euthanized (not drowned) all the puppies and never bred again. But that almost never happens.
There is no reasoning with that kind of madness.
I am very glad Mr. Amish bred these puppies and I am happy to give him a little bit of money for his trouble. And I am THRILLED to death with the perfect little bundle of joy at my feet right now. And when the time comes, I’ll go back looking for another one.
Let the internet dog goddesses gnash and froth all they want.
[QUOTE=S1969;8223692]
No, you have to get pet owners to think it is better to spay and neuter. It’s not about breeders spaying/neuter their dogs.
I’m not trying to belittle your beliefs - I agree with the theory of them. Yes, in theory if we could stem the flow of puppies, we might be able to prevent unwanted pets in shelters and rescues.
But I think in reality the demand for puppies will always persist. Most people like dogs; puppies are easy to love…and humans don’t ever think that what applies to “most people” should apply to them. (E.g. I would never drop a puppy off at a shelter)…and yet…shelters are full of dogs and puppies.
If only there was an easy answer…we wouldn’t be having any of this discussion. This is a complex issue, not just about breeders, or owners, or shelters…etc. It’s a complicated system of supply and demand and fueled by human opinions - which are all over the place.
Some people really feel it is totally ok to take a dog “that isn’t working out” and drop it at the shelter. Limiting breeders will never change that part of the equation.[/QUOTE]
Laws, licensing and fines will work to encourage some people to spay and neuter, but unfortunately, that’s probably going to be a minority. Since negative reinforcement doesn’t seem to work, I wish I could convince an animal welfare group to try positive reinforcement…choice of a gift card (a selection) and a drawing for a grand prize once a spay/neuter has been completed. Of course, low cost or free spay neuter would have to be the second part of the package.
You would be amazed what people will do for a gift card.
Education has to be part of the solution too. In many places, it’s a cultural thing.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;8224069]
Laws, licensing and fines will work to encourage some people to spay and neuter, but unfortunately, that’s probably going to be a minority. Since negative reinforcement doesn’t seem to work, I wish I could convince an animal welfare group to try positive reinforcement…choice of a gift card (a selection) and a drawing for a grand prize once a spay/neuter has been completed. Of course, low cost or free spay neuter would have to be the second part of the package.
You would be amazed what people will do for a gift card.
Education has to be part of the solution too. In many places, it’s a cultural thing.[/QUOTE]
I think you’re on to something If doing the right thing (spay/neuter) doesn’t drive behavior then why not a monetary gift in addition to free surgery? Still cheaper than millions of pets in the shelter.
For spay/neuter campaigns to be successful, people with a good understanding of human nature should organize and promote them. (Instead of animal rights folks).
Ask any top marketing service how to get people to do something, and they will tell you to answer the question “what’s in it for me?”
People like convenience, they like immediate gratification, they like easy, and they like cheap, and they like a good end result.
Run marketing campaigns that promote how spay/neuter benefits PEOPLE. Campaigns have focused on how it benefits animals, but lots of people don’t really care about the animals as much as themselves. But if your bitch is spayed, you won’t have the twice per year hassle of her vaginal discharge getting on your clothes and furniture… you won’t have to turn your home/yard into a maximum security prison… or have stray males from the whole county showing up and fighting in front of your house… or have to deal with unwanted pregnancies and litters. Same with males: less leg humping, less peeing on all your stuff.
Make people want to do it, then make sure it’s easy, quick, and cheap for them to get it done. Most of the dogs in the shelters aren’t purebreds that were produced by a breeder. They’re mutts that were produced (usually accidentally) by irresponsible owners.
Rule #1 of shaping behavior is “make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard”. The reverse is true of spay/neuter.
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