I was denied from multiple rescues because the dog would live outside and have a legitimate job.
I was talking to Livestock Guardian Dog breed specific rescues. No joke.
Sigh.
There are many many good rescues as well, including ones for LGDs, but we ended up with two pups from a fellow goat keeper and a pup I spotted on a Facebook garage sale post and took a chance on. Very happy with how all three are progressing.
Us too. Not just rescues, but the show breeders too.
I popped back in to say that I really like racknroll’s post. People need to better understand the benefits of spay/neuter. Some of the problems that lead people to give up on dogs can come directly from neglecting to neuter the pet. We had to work hard on a “traditional” family member on that point…she and the dog were MUCH happier once he was neutered, and he is welcome at far more places now.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8226211]
Us too. Not just rescues, but the show breeders too.
I popped back in to say that I really like racknroll’s post. People need to better understand the benefits of spay/neuter. Some of the problems that lead people to give up on dogs can come directly from neglecting to neuter the pet. We had to work hard on a “traditional” family member on that point…she and the dog were MUCH happier once he was neutered, and he is welcome at far more places now.[/QUOTE]
The Show breeders just don’t produce enough puppies to meet the demand. I receive vastly more inquiries from good homes than I will have available puppies. And for folks who are new to buying a purebred dog, it can be tough to understand that (depending upon your region and breed) a six to twelve month wait for a puppy is common. In a world of instant gratification, it can seem odd. Lately, I am regularly explaining to folks that yes, I have two girls who are confirmed pregnant, but no I don’t have any puppies available from these breedings. I’m working on my 2016 wait list
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8226273]
The Show breeders just don’t produce enough puppies to meet the demand. I receive vastly more inquiries from good homes than I will have available puppies. And for folks who are new to buying a purebred dog, it can be tough to understand that (depending upon your region and breed) a six to twelve month wait for a puppy is common. In a world of instant gratification, it can seem odd. Lately, I am regularly explaining to folks that yes, I have two girls who are confirmed pregnant, but no I don’t have any puppies available from these breedings. I’m working on my 2016 wait list[/QUOTE]
you are the jerk, no matter how you turn it.
You breed = evil
You don’t sell cheap = greedy
you don’t breed til the uterus falls out…well you get it, you are forcing peope to buy from BYBs and mills…
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8226283]
you are the jerk, no matter how you turn it.
You breed = evil
You don’t sell cheap = greedy
you don’t breed til the uterus falls out…well you get it, you are forcing peope to buy from BYBs and mills…[/QUOTE]
It’s true - when people want to blame someone (anyone) other than themselves, they will always point a finger in another direction.
I don’t think that show breeders really impact the “pet market” very much. They represent a small proportion of breeders, and they don’t breed frequently because titling takes time. Some people buy “show” dogs as pets, but probably a pretty small number compared to all other sources of puppies.
[QUOTE=S1969;8226341]
It’s true - when people want to blame someone (anyone) other than themselves, they will always point a finger in another direction.
I don’t think that show breeders really impact the “pet market” very much. They represent a small proportion of breeders, and they don’t breed frequently because titling takes time. Some people buy “show” dogs as pets, but probably a pretty small number compared to all other sources of puppies.[/QUOTE]
I approach the dog business like I do the horse thing:
Most people do not need championship bloodlines.
or, in terms of working breeds, the lines that make that breed good for the job.
In these terms I don’t mind the decent BYB.
I do loathe the millers though who are in it only for the money.
My SIL used to breed dachshunds like that.
They built 8 or ten runs, hardly bigger than a twin size bed, stuck a dog house in and bred each bitch twice a year, and tough luck if the pups were only 5 1/2 weeks old for Christmas season. Trade day here we come! <vomit icon>
She did eliminate mean dogs - by sending them on to other breeders, but non of her dogs were really socialized. As far as Dachshund characteristic goes, they sucked.
Then she realized even that was to much work for her, and they got rid of all the dogs.
I was at the vet this weekend: cat with an ear infection (no mites), and new dog with tapeworms (online purchase was backordered; no I’m not waiting a month to worm my dog).
There was a lady there to put her dog down… at age 5. This dog had issues from the time it was a year old; a very popular small fluffy breed overrun with irresponsible breeders. This is the heartbreak I am sorry to say happens to too many ‘victims’ of the ‘you should rescue/adopt’ and impulse buy purchases of cute pups.
She mentioned she wisheds she could ‘rescue’ and I have no doubt the lady now believes breeders are BAD.
My own New dog, just bought, is age 6. I expect at least double that age for her lifespan based on her relatives and ancestry. Accidents happen and some dogs pass on early, sure.
But ticking time bombs of living dogs are no accident.
I am so sorry for the lady’s loss and grief where she should have just been enjoying her dog in his prime years.
I sincerely hope the OP wins the genetic lottery with her new dog and enjoys a long fulfilling partnership.
I’m for tougher leash laws and encouraging people to train and confine their pets as solution to overpopulation. While many ‘surprise’ litters are not planned; Irresponsible or foolish owners are not Avoiding letting their dogs breed either.
Dogs in secure fencing and/or on leash don’t get randomly bred. Most of them live longer, happier lives, too.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8226273]
The Show breeders just don’t produce enough puppies to meet the demand. I receive vastly more inquiries from good homes than I will have available puppies. And for folks who are new to buying a purebred dog, it can be tough to understand that (depending upon your region and breed) a six to twelve month wait for a puppy is common. In a world of instant gratification, it can seem odd. Lately, I am regularly explaining to folks that yes, I have two girls who are confirmed pregnant, but no I don’t have any puppies available from these breedings. I’m working on my 2016 wait list[/QUOTE]
Six to twelve months would have been OK with us, but the show breeders locally (sort of local anyway) wasn’t planning any breedings at all, and had the nine page application that essentially excluded working homes for their LGD breed. They wanted show or city pet homes. Again, that’s totally up to the breeder, and I’m not sure this is a widespread issue, but it was interesting to hear someone else chime in on LGDs specifically.
I found my LGD in a similar way to that poster, from a working farm. It wasn’t “instant” but we had a puppy within six months, which was perfectly reasonable seeming to us. Not sure we should be frowned upon for that, but as mentioned before, the working farm wouldn’t have met the requirements of many posters here for “good breeder.” And many people have wondered why I couldn’t have gotten a “rescue” instead of supporting a BYB.
The BYB had the type of dog I wanted. The shelters didn’t, and if they did, the restrictions on adoption excluded working farms.
Kind of like the OP.
I don’t think you’re a “bad guy” at all if you are providing dogs that people buy, and arent replicating the type of dog being warehoused in local shelters. Others here have expressed differing opinion. I also don’t think you’re a “bad guy” for determining that the dogs available at local shelters are less likely to be a good fit for you than a dog from a dreaded BYB. I DO think you’re a “bad guy” if you’ve ever surrendered a pet to a shelter without working darn hard to find a suitable home yourself, OR if you frequently have “oops” puppies that end up “rescued.”
[QUOTE=S1969;8226341]
It’s true - when people want to blame someone (anyone) other than themselves, they will always point a finger in another direction.
I don’t think that show breeders really impact the “pet market” very much. They represent a small proportion of breeders, and they don’t breed frequently because titling takes time. Some people buy “show” dogs as pets, but probably a pretty small number compared to all other sources of puppies.[/QUOTE]
In my breed, there has of late been a concerted effort to increase our visibility and make it easier for folks who want the puppy from health tested/titled parents to find us. My regional breed club just redid the website, but apparently one of the things they have done well is to construct in such a way that we appear quickly on a google search as does the list of members who are also active breeders (the minority). But, since we spend time with our dogs and if we’re on the performance side the career lasts for many years, we have far fewer puppies born than could be placed. I have one girl that I’m breeding this year so that I can have my next generation, but I may never breed her again. We’ve got things to do together.
I don’t think that is typical. The few LGD breeders I’ve met breed infrequently because there’s relatively few working dog homes vs homes for the average Labrador Retriever. Even the show ones I’ve met come in from the field and get cleaned up to show. I don’t bother with a written application, I just talk to people and get a feel for them. If they’re smart enough to find me through my breed club’s website, then they’ve put at least some thought in to their puppy wish
There’s nothing wrong with working dog breeders either, as long as they’re doing the testing and health checks required to assure the health of the puppies. I don’t know where some of you got the idea that only a show breeder is considered to be acceptable. There’s not a lot of money in doing it the right way though.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;8226385]
I don’t know where some of you got the idea that only a show breeder is considered to be acceptable. [/QUOTE]
it is implied, by the vitriol spewed at people who buy from a breeder.
And rankly, there is little distinction made by those certain folks between the show breeder and the puppy mill (show by their ignorance regarding the real effects of anti breeding legislation)
I do also live in Alberta, Canada and the population density means I don’t exactly have a huge selection of breeders. It was more important for us to meet and interact with the parents and owners frequently than it was to support some imaginary “ideal” for dog breeding.
I think that some of the BYB working owners here probably have great dogs, even show quality (I couldn’t tell you for sure) , but haven’t bothered to get titles or even register in many cases. Breeding dogs isn’t their business. The odd litter sells fine, or they keep the unsold ones as replacements for the parents.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;8226385]
There’s nothing wrong with working dog breeders either, as long as they’re doing the testing and health checks required to assure the health of the puppies. I don’t know where some of you got the idea that only a show breeder is considered to be acceptable. There’s not a lot of money in doing it the right way though.[/QUOTE]
The health testing is the critical part to me. I enjoy showing my dogs in agility and rally/obedience. If somebody approached me about using my male and had done all the health testing but weren’t showing in conformation/performance, I would consider them as long as I thought my male could offer what they sought. I do get tired of the folks who think breeders are making a fortune off of puppy sales. As you point out, doing things correctly is not a means to riches.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8226394]
it is implied, by the vitriol spewed at people who buy from a breeder.
And rankly, there is little distinction made by those certain folks between the show breeder and the puppy mill (show by their ignorance regarding the real effects of anti breeding legislation)[/QUOTE]
Also by boards like this, where people frequently talk about only breeding “proven championship” stock, which of COURSE must be registered with the right organization. Many people out there firmly believe that breeding unregistered dogs is an unforgivable sin.
As far as I knew, the only way to have a “proven” dog in that way was to show it. You don’t get championships or external validation for being the third generation LGD on a sheep farm to never lose a lamb to coyotes!
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8226404]
Also by boards like this, where people frequently talk about only breeding “proven championship” stock, which of COURSE must be registered with the right organization. Many people out there firmly believe that breeding unregistered dogs is an unforgivable sin.
As far as I knew, the only way to have a “proven” dog in that way was to show it. You don’t get championships or external validation for being the third generation LGD on a sheep farm to never lose a lamb to coyotes![/QUOTE]
I would never touch a GSD with ‘championship’ bloodlines from the show ring…a travesty, compared to what the dogs were meant to be.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;8226385]
There’s nothing wrong with working dog breeders either, as long as they’re doing the testing and health checks required to assure the health of the puppies. I don’t know where some of you got the idea that only a show breeder is considered to be acceptable. There’s not a lot of money in doing it the right way though.[/QUOTE]
I also think there is a huge opportunity for a good pet market, and probably this does exist in more popular breeds like labs and goldens. The dogs would be registered and selected for correct breed characteristics, but not necessarily shown because titling can be incredibly expensive. But the dogs would definitely be health tested and tracked through generations to help eliminate congenital defects and incorrect temperaments.
Unfortunately, you hear too many stories about breeders who don’t do health tests because they “don’t know any better” (e.g. the Amish breeder in this post) or that “pet owners don’t care about that kind of thing”…which is really too bad. The most expensive part of breeding a show dog is the show title. In comparison to what I’ve spent on my dog’s show titles, the “breeding expenses” are really small – health testing probably cost only $450-$500 for hips, elbows, eyes & patellas. Whelping puppies is not cheap, but compared to traveling to shows or hiring handlers it’s nothing.
I would think that if someone wanted to be a good “pet” breeder but not to show their dogs, it wouldn’t be that difficult and nearly as lucrative (or maybe more) than the BYBs that don’t bother with the selection/testing.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8226404]
Also by boards like this, where people frequently talk about only breeding “proven championship” stock, which of COURSE must be registered with the right organization. Many people out there firmly believe that breeding unregistered dogs is an unforgivable sin.
As far as I knew, the only way to have a “proven” dog in that way was to show it. You don’t get championships or external validation for being the third generation LGD on a sheep farm to never lose a lamb to coyotes![/QUOTE]
“Proven” means different things to different people. “Proven” hunting dog means the dog can hunt. “Titled” hunting dog means it hunts in competition. Not the same thing, on paper or in real life. Many competition dogs aren’t great hunting dogs in real life, and many great hunting dogs would fail in a hunt test or trial. It really depends on what you want.
But “registered”…that’s kind of important if you’re a breeder. That allows future generations to compete if they want. If not registered, even the best show quality dog or hunting dog may not be able to compete in certain events. Which means nothing for many people, and everything to others.
I understand registration. I just don’t think it’s a cardinal sin to recognize that your market isn’t interested and to decide to not participate. Nor should it be a cardinal sin to seek out and purchase an unregistered puppy if the type is a good fit and you’re satisfied with the breeder’s philosophy and operation.
I don’t think registration should be a key variable in determining “good” versus “bad deserving shaming” breeders.
A person seriously breeding LGDs or working Stockdogs may be using registered stock or unregistered stock OR crossbreeding.
You can bet that every parent has done the job required or been sold off as a pet, however, and their parents, too. This type of breeder can tell you plenty about the temperaments and soundness of their dogs so you can tell if it will be a ‘fit’ to your family.
This ‘landrace’ sort of breeding is where breeds of dog originated in the first place. Using animals from a pool of related, type-bred working dogs that were mated to produce more working dogs.
Then show people admired them, decided to promote them, selected foundation animals and closed the books.
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