Rescue organizations keep puppy mills in business--open vent/rant

[Perfect10]

[QUOTE=red mares;8216068]
This is exactly why I don’t want a rescue and was not thrilled when my father got one. I don’t need someone else’s screwed up dog. Depending on some breeds this is especially true. Last thing I want is a JRT with baggage. I love them, but they are crazy enough on a good day. We cringed at some of the dogs my dad looked at - 3 yro male JRT, not yet fixed. :eek: You know he had issues.

Same goes for cats, my cat of choice is a Siamese. They aren’t always easy to live with. If someone dumps one on a rescue, it probably has issues. I don’t want to deal with someone else’s problem child. I also don’t need some busybody volunteer with a God complex passing judgment on me. “Reputable” breeders seem the have the same God complex as rescues anymore.

For those of you criticizing the OP’s desire for instant gratification, the best thing for my parents when the cat died, was almost immediately getting them another one. When the dog died, Dad waited, looking for “the perfect dog;” it was heart-breaking. He wasn’t looking for the perfect dog, he was looking for a reincarnation of the one that died. In hindsight, I wish I had been able to drop off a small terrier on his doorstep within 30 days of the old dog dying.[/QUOTE]

Whoa whoa whoa. Rescue dogs are not all screwed up. In fact, most dogs that are returned aren’t. It’s usually the people that are the problem, not the dog. Yes, sometimes the dog is unsocialized and untrained. But usually, we get a normal dog who needs training. Not to mention the numerous dogs that came to us as strays. The dog I want to adopt from the shelter has been with us from a puppy. He gets along with every dog, cats, and people. I would never hesitate to adopt a dog from a rescue. Breeders can have problem dogs just as easily as rescues.

With cats, I don’t understand why anyone would get one from a breeder when millions die in shelters every year. People give up cats for stupider reasons than dogs. A purebred Siamese can be surrendered to a shelter and be the easiest cat on earth, but the owners were moving or had a baby or got a new puppy. It’s almost never the cat’s fault.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;8216213]
Actually, that’s a great question. How many days did the OP actually devote to her search before getting frustrated and rejected multiple times? I thought it sounded like less than 2 weeks, but maybe I missed something. As far as I could tell, she did not seek out a breeder of purpose bred/crossbred pups for agility, which would have seemed to be a good start.

And then she came to this board to rant about it.[/QUOTE]

And who are you to judge her?
How many rejections form rescue groups does one need to encounter?
100, like writers?

Maybe you should take her rant more serious, because every one of those carries more impact than one person with a great experience with rescues.

every one rescue demanding a standard of care in utopian ranges does more damage than a single BYB possibly can.
Yeah, I read the numbers, how many pups an unspayed bitch can produce in her lifetime through her offspring.
It’'s hyperbole, like water requirements to grow meat vs vegetables and, if truth be told, completely unfounded.

Every single ‘holier than thou’ instance of the ‘rescue’ community leaves a mark.

I had mine that soured me last year, being treated like I dropped of a dog’s behind, for looking for resources to help a stray dog that had gotten hit by a car.
The woman was certain I was trying to dump my dog on her, she made no attempt to appear giving two s****.
Let me just say, the group will never see a penny from me.
The other group was much more helpful when I found an exotic cat, scanning her for me, offering to take down her specifics, in case the owners came looking.

How long does one have to ponder over a horse purchase?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8216235]
How long does one have to ponder over a horse purchase?[/QUOTE]

Great question. Another good comparison - how many horses should you look at before complaining on COTH that you can’t find anything suitable?

[Townsend]

I have 2 dogs, a 7 1/2 year old and a 2 year old. Both were purchased from the same breeder (responsible, not back yard). I typically am gone from 9-10 hours a day with commute time added in on each end. Both pups came home at 10 weeks of age. I took a week off each time I brought one home. My dog walker comes in twice a day, has since the first one was 12 weeks old and he stared taking care of them. I am also very involved in a number of performance sports with them including obedience, rally, agility and barn hunt and am typically out at training class at least 2x a week. My older girl is multi- titled in upper levels in many different venues. The younger one is just starting her show career but already has a number of lower level titles. It can be done, as others have said, you just have to have a plan and find a breeder willing to work with you.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8216235]

Every single ‘holier than thou’ instance of the ‘rescue’ community leaves a mark.

I had mine that soured me last year, being treated like I dropped of a dog’s behind, for looking for resources to help a stray dog that had gotten hit by a car.
The woman was certain I was trying to dump my dog on her, she made no attempt to appear giving two s****.
?[/QUOTE]

I remember that…it was truly awful for you and that poor suffering dog. I don’t know what the answer is, I’ve pulled too many bitches from shelters that are dumped there when their backyard breeders have used them all up. They’re not socialized, many of them have genetic problems that wouldn’t exist if only the breeder had done the proper testing before breeding. I can’t even begin to tell you how many morons out there breed a blue merle collie to a blue merle (because they fetch a higher price and are in more demand) and end up with deaf and blind puppies…all because they’re idiots or don’t care they’re breeding throw away dogs.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;8216297]
Great question. Another good comparison - how many horses should you look at before complaining on COTH that you can’t find anything suitable?[/QUOTE]

according to you, about a 100…

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8216386]
according to you, about a 100…[/QUOTE]

Why don’t you go ask on Off Course and see what people say?

I’m not sure why you just want to argue with me and no one else; I’m not the only one with this opinion. Maybe because I respond, so I guess I’m done with this thread.

[Sswor]

I’m not trying to justify buying from the Amish. I have no problem with buying from the Amish. I bought a pony from the Amish, too. Frankly I’m glad the Amish breed this mix so I could get a verified cross bred puppy. I also have no problem giving a profit to the woman who brokered the deal and vaccinated/dewormed/bathed the pups and offered me a free vet visit at one of 5 participating locations. I’m glad she did it otherwise I might not have been able to find this puppy, so I have no problem supporting that market.

Again, I think some people here would be happier if one of the idiots they talk about bought the puppy first, dumped it, and THEN I adopted it [–after a long and grueling inquisition, and at least 2 people here would gleefully DENY me in the end]. Seems it just boils down to a weird control thing with these rescue people. Maybe they think we, ‘instantaneous Gratificatious’ types will go home and cease all our impure, puppy-coveting thoughts after the Dog Gods say no.

Otherwise you’d think they would be thrilled that one puppy from these byb’s, that “so often ends up dumped at a shelter”, isn’t going to end up in their system. But no–I’M the bad guy. Obviously it’s not really about the dogs.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Sswor;8216444]
I’m not trying to justify buying from the Amish. I have no problem with buying from the Amish. I bought a pony from the Amish, too. Frankly I’m glad the Amish breed this mix so I could get a verified cross bred puppy. I also have no problem giving a profit to the woman who brokered the deal and vaccinated/dewormed/bathed the pups and offered me a free vet visit at one of 5 participating locations. I’m glad she did it otherwise I might not have been able to find this puppy, so I have no problem supporting that market.

Again, I think some people here would be happier if one of the idiots they talk about bought the puppy first, dumped it, and THEN I adopted it [–after a long and grueling inquisition, and at least 2 people here would gleefully DENY me in the end]. Seems it just boils down to a weird control thing with these rescue people. Maybe they think we, ‘instantaneous Gratificatious’ types will go home and cease all our impure, puppy-coveting thoughts after the Dog Gods say no.

Otherwise you’d think they would be thrilled that one puppy from these byb’s, that “so often ends up dumped at a shelter”, isn’t going to end up in their system. But no–I’M the bad guy. Obviously it’s not really about the dogs.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it really is about the dogs. That’s a bogus justification. It’s people who buy from those breeders (dear gods, the Amish) who keep them in business. A couple of years ago, I resigned from a collie rescue as a director, volunteer and board member when I found they were buying puppies from a puppy mill. It was unethical of them and it was wrong. Funny, they tried to justify it with the same claim as you…that they saved “all those” dog. You should have to pull those sad, discarded breeder dogs from the shelters…if they’re lucky enough to even make it that far. You might change your tune. Have you seen the conditions some of those Amish breeders keep their dogs in? If you’re going to buy from a backyard breeder, at least have the good common sense to make sure you go to the home, meet the bitch and see the conditions they’ve been raised in.

To sum up, I don’t really care where you bought your dog, just don’t try to justify it by trying to claim that those of us who have pointed out it wasn’t the wisest choice don’t care about dogs.

Here’s some information about those puppy mills.

http://www.thepuppymillproject.org/puppy-mills-a-side-of-the-amish-that-you-never-knew/?doing_wp_cron=1436138190.6667239665985107421875

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7187712

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;8216394]
Why don’t you go ask on Off Course and see what people say?

I’m not sure why you just want to argue with me and no one else; I’m not the only one with this opinion. Maybe because I respond, so I guess I’m done with this thread.[/QUOTE]

The point is, you pontificate on how the OP did not have a time line you approve of.

Big different.

We get a little too judgmental for our own good.
I mean, there are plenty of stories about people looking for a just so horse, giving up on the local market, buying from Europe (hint, they eat horse)

Same really with the ‘rescues’ and BYBs.

I am not sure I would want a mix as the OP was looking for, but who am I to judge?
I look sporadically at rescues, hoping to find a Dalmatian. I think I still got her breeder’s contact info, but he would qualify as BYB. He was a nice man, his kids loved on the pups, he would not have dumped her at the shelter.
Now, long past the 101 Dalmatian craze, you can’t find breeders, certainly no quick fix, and nothing that is somewhat pure bred, pit free.

The Broad Amish brush…good lord. Yes, all of them are created equal.
Non of them can possibly give a rat’s behind…

The OP was looking for a particular breed(mix). More power to her.
She did not want to have some other mutt, having to guess if that was suitable for her purpose. Ok, we fault her for that?

I have not owned a dog in oh, 7 years or 8 (bratty sister couldn’t take her dogs to the ever after, she had to request mine…) I suppose it make me a rube to have never heard of ‘cattle Jacks’ as desirable mix…but it isn’t really unheard of that certain mixes are bred for a purpose, that ‘using dogs’ are often different from the usual show fair, in looks and breeder demeanor.

I may or may not agree with the OP about her likes, demands or attitude…but in the end I don’t judge her.
I got my own skeletons in the closet.
I didn’t exactly uphold the COTH mandated waiting period to acquire my cats.
I saw the sign in the front yard, nearly swerved into the ditch and brought not one, but 2 (yes, TWO) kittens home, without greater preparations.

So far the idiots are still with me, growing stranger every day…closing in on one happy decade pummeling me into submission…

Oh, the mother of all impulse buys:
THE TRUCK IS COMING!!!

[saratoga]

There are actually people purposely breeding dogs called “Cattle Jacks” and “Border Jacks”???
I always adopt mutts- I prefer them and everywhere I’ve ever lived has, sadly, such an over-abundance of dogs that the local shelters have very little adoption rules. I can walk in at any given time and see many dogs that I would love to adopt-the problem is just choosing one!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=saratoga;8216545]
There are actually people purposely breeding dogs called “Cattle Jacks” and “Border Jacks”???[/QUOTE]

Well, yes, people do intentionally cross-breed for a variety of reasons. I believe the cross-bred Border Jack types tend to be for dog sports like agility, among other things. I am not an expert but the idea would be to take, for example, the intensity and intelligence of a Border Collie and mix it with the tenaciousness and size of a Jack Russell Terrier.

But, to be done well, the breeder would need to select for specific characteristics, not just “breeds”…ideally it would be a cross between purebred dogs that tend to produce specific characteristics – intensity, tenaciousness, intelligence – not just that the breed is known, in general, to produce. (Because there is a fine line between intense and obsessive…tenacious and aggressive…etc.)

[mzm_farm]

I feel OP pain and point. For the first time ever, I went to a breeder to get a dog, it is the first pup I have ever had, previous have all been shelter/rescue/recycled dogs.
Rescues wanted me to fill out pages of “applications” before ever telling me what dogs they had available, I was not “qualified” in their eyes, their working dog breeds ONLY wanted to be couch potatoes and never home alone… the list of insanity goes on. The “rescue” pups were more expensive then the dog I ultimately bought from a breeder.

I get it, we all want the best for animals that have had a rough go first time around, I used to work in a rescue group. TALKING to someone for 10-15 minutes gives you way more answers then 10 pages of “applications” and makes for better placements.

Don’t even get me started on cats… Our county shelter had 100 cats 4+ yrs old and only 3-5 were ready to go home - the rest needed “shots” or other care. Heck, the youngish adult cat I was interested in and was warned that he is frisky and bites and scratches (playfully…) was not even Rabies vaccinated. Appalling!!

Next cat rescue group was a pleasure to deal with - made a special trip to meet me in person, talked to me and send the cat I wanted (adult all black short hair cat) home with me the same day. That cat is the love of my parents’ huge house on a lake, pampered and cared for like any cat can only dream of. Rescue group gets updates when we chat, nothing but good things to say about the cat on our part, we all adore her.

I did go out and got what I wanted. Now I am hesitant to recommend people adopt, it is such an unreasonably intrusive process in most cases and so hard to find rescues that do it for the animals in a sensible fashion vs. some egotrip or veiled moneymaker.

I do not feel bad buying from a breeder in the least - I got to see the parents, my pup was raised and acclimated to the life I wanted it to go into, I got useful advise and saw how it was done at the breeders’ place. I got to see sibs and other representatives of the breed. Way more info then any shelter will ever give me on a dog. My pup was seen by a vet and had all health care up to date.
I am one very satisfied customer!

[Sswor]

@LauraKY;8216467

To sum up, I don’t really care where you bought your dog, just don’t try to justify it by trying to claim that those of us who have pointed out it wasn’t the wisest choice don’t care about dogs.

And that’s different then you and your friends telling me I’m a bad, irresponsible, and unfit dog owner how?

And you just know I bought from a puppy mill? You just know Mr. Amish had rows and rows of hutches packed with breeding bitches and puppies from ceiling to floor in his back barn? You just know it, don’t you? You are the all knowing all seeing dog goddess of the internet.

And on the contrary; I made an extremely wise choice. I made the wisest of wise choices that prevents me from ending up in a situation where a dog is “past the cute puppy stage” and turns out to be not a good fit for a lifestyle/family. You know, exactly what you rescue people bemoan that people OUGHT to do before adding a dog to their home in the first place.

Overall, Laura, I’m sorry you failed to swoop in and save the day. I’m sorry all your predictions of my perfect puppy quest being impossible to fulfill did not come to pass. I’m sorry you were wrong. I’m also sorry that you are now so combative about it. I’m also sorry you cannot be happy that one puppy from the Evil Amish just won the puppy jackpot. Guess what, I didn’t ask Mr. Evil Amish guy to breed his dogs. The puppies were already on the ground and up for sale. If I didn’t buy my puppy someone else would. And then it might have ended up in your neck of the woods abandoned/neglected/worse, like you insist so often happens.

Although I think in a way, you would prefer that–because then you, and your ‘rescue’ friends could be involved in/control who gets the puppy, how and when. And then you could score “feel good” points by “rescuing” the puppy.

I’m sorry to cut you out of the process, Laura. I did what was right for me and I’m very satisfied with how it turned out. You ‘rescue’ people are so busy looking down your noses at the rest of the world you can’t even see the forest for the trees.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Sswor;8216852]
And you just know I bought from a puppy mill? [/QUOTE]

If you have to “rescue” this puppy, then it’s a puppy mill. Big or small, or “BYB”…same thing. A breeder that breeds for money, without caring where the puppies end up, and typically will not take them back.

Will your breeder take the puppy back if you can’t keep it?

@Sswor;8216852

And on the contrary; I made an extremely wise choice. I made the wisest of wise choices that prevents me from ending up in a situation where a dog is “past the cute puppy stage” and turns out to be not a good fit for a lifestyle/family. You know, exactly what you rescue people bemoan that people OUGHT to do before adding a dog to their home in the first place.

This is the stupid argument again. Really, it would be better if you just stopped saying it because it only irritates people more. A good owner OUGHT to care where the puppies come from, who bred them and why. A good breeder OUGHT to breed for specific traits that will produce healthy puppies with a correct temperament. They should also do some health testing for the most common congenital defects known for the breed.

If you won’t support a good breeder, then you should go to a rescue or a shelter. Doing anything else makes you part of the PROBLEM, not part of the SOLUTION.

[LauraKY]

Sswor…your title: Rescue organizations keep puppy mills in business–open vent/rant

No, no they don’t. People like you do.

[Countrywood]

Ssworr, did you ask to see the facilities where the adult breeding dogs are kept from the Amish breeder?

[Countrywood]

The issue is not whether a breeder is Amish or what they charge for their puppies. . A breeder with nothing to hide will show a buyer where the parents live and how the litters and breeding dogs are housed. A by breeder , the dogs or at least the female lives in their house/ on premises and they should willingly show you . If no parent dog is on premises, they did not breed the puppy and are likely fronting for a puppy mill…

A puppy mill breeder might sell the puppy via a third party location so it all is far from prying eyes, or present the puppy in living room of their house and refuse to show a buyer around if buyer asks to see where the breeding dogs are kenneled.

[BLBGP]

Please stop with the sweeping generalizations. To say “no shelters have puppies” or “dogs are harder to adopt than children” does a disservice to the good shelters out there working hard every day for animals. The shelter 1 mile away from where I am sitting right now adopted out multiple puppies (as well as many other pets) last week. They don’t have written adoption applications - it’s all done through casual conversation to make the process fun, easy, and good for everyone involved. Pets are s/n, microchipped, vaccinated, etc. so they can go home immediately. The rooms are open and airy. They are open admission and don’t turn pets away. They follow up with adopters and provide services if needed to help pets adjust to new homes. There are many shelters like this throughout the country. And yes, there are also rescue/hoarders, and puppy importers, and backwards shelters, and ‘no kills’ who won’t let pets out.

Say “the shelters near me don’t have puppies”. Say “Bob’s rescue refused to adopt to me”. Say the truth, not your version of it.

[BLBGP]

What disturbs me most about this thread (besides all the generalizations - sorry for the rant above) is that the OP seems to be saying that a very specific (and somewhat difficult to manage for the average owner) mix of puppy should be available at all times of the year, 24/7, on the off chance she decides she wants one right now. What happens with all the other puppies?