Well even more exciting news! I’m pretty positive we have the issue figured out!
Had biomechanics trainer out and was very very helpful to have fresh set of eyes from the ground (not sure how no other trainer picked this up). His NPA shoulder is really really locked up and he can’t move out. When I’m asking for the trot, he’s throwing his weight on his shoulder, like a minuscule amount that it’s hard to really feel. I could feel his hind quarters disengaging, and was riding the hind legs straight, but his shoulders were still unbalanced. Once you counter bend him and get him balanced evenly on the shoulders he trots off no problem. I was actually to get a swinging walk for the first time ever tonight.
Further testing this theory, I dropped the reins once in the trot, he threw his shoulder out and unbalanced and shut down. Couldn’t trot through the corner. Straight aways are a lot easier once he’s trotting.
So next steps are continuing to keep riding like tonight and we’re also having someone out that specializes in muscles to come work on specifically the shoulder, but his also whole body. I can’t remember exactly what it is she does, but I’ll keep updating as this progresses and after he’s had his treatments. I’m so hopeful!! I felt some amazing things out of this horse tonight and I don’t think we’ve even tapped anywhere near his full potential.
Even though I may have found the cause I am still keeping him on the vitamin e and switching to one of the options listed above. Thanks for the insight on this!! I just grabbed elevate because it was readily available and highly recommended by others. For as much as a nutrition freak I am, I’m really surprised I missed the sugar in it and all the other flaws
Not to derail the thread but: Can I get a list of the Vitamin E options and which are the cheapest? My guy is on Elevate and it takes months to go through the little container but I’m always for saving cash.
Do you think he could possibly still have some pain in the NPA hoof?
I wonder if he’s got some strain or damage to the soft tissue in the hoof from the NPA. I might have missed it, but have you ever blocked the hoof to see if that improves the first trot? Also, have you xrayed the hoof again to confirm you have corrected the angles?
Yeah I would probably do some blocks on that leg to make sure he isn’t compensating for a brewing chronic repetitive injury caused by NPA. They can also rarely have some pathology in the shoulder (spurs, arthritis, bursitis). It could be a chicken/egg thing causing them to load that foot differently and maybe exacerbating the NPA issue you are having trouble getting on top of.
At least you have a way to help the horse now from a training perspective and a place to focus physical diagnostics.
But sometimes there really IS nothing wrong with the horse, it’s all “attitude”.
WB stallion approvals look at the trainability of a stallion. How willing is he to work and “do the right thing” and try. There’s a reason for this. Most horses are inherently willing to please and be a good partner. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t have lasted in domestication.
But some horses are not interested. They may comply and do as little as possible. They may be totally fine with low level work that really doesn’t push them to the edge of their comfort zone. But if you ask them to actually work, even if it’s just proper work in w/t/c (which most amateurs don’t now how to ask for), they resist and are willing to spend more time telling us no, than actually just doing the work. Thankfully these horses are the minority. But there are lines in any given breed that are known for being very difficult to train for no reason other than their genetics are a horse who is not willing to put forth a lot of effort.
Some horses are pretty trainable, but their early intro to work has been “it’s ok, I know it’s hard, we don’t have to do that”, or they’ve just never been asked to do real work. Some question everything every step of the way to make sure you’re reeeeaaallyy actually serious about it. They learn they can avoid real work, and if they are suddenly asked to do things the right way, they may well go “wth, no, this is not how my life works, we do this MY way”. The “good” horse may just resist. The more opinionated horse may kick or buck or just plant his feet.
There’s so much more that goes into a horse not doing as we ask than physical barriers
That said, I agree that a lot of people do chalk too much up to a training issue and never go digging for physical issues. They ride in saddles that don’t fit, they have taught a horse it’s ok to run around with a hollow back, they don’t even know what they don’t know about hoof care and the feet are in terrible shape. A lot of that is, IMHO, simply not understanding the horse (as a species, let alone their particular one).
Assume first it’s your training problem. YOU, not the horse. Most of the time it is, simply because most amateurs don’t get enough, or any, quality instruction on how to ride, they are merely passengers who can stay on (maybe). Then if you are SURE it’s not the training (and put the ego aside), assume it’s a physical issue. And then, in the pretty uncommon case, it may simply be who that horse is.
Yep! I recently learned about Micronutrients brand. Their capsules are 1200IU, which means you can get in the $.05/1000IU range. UltraCruz is still very inexpensive at $.13/1000IU. Puritan’s Pride and some other human gel caps are also in the $.10-.13/1000IU range
That was my original thought too, but the horse is sound and vet was very happy with improvements of the foot that had the NPA, via x ray. I suppose there is still a possibility something more is involved, like soft tissue injury or heel pain still, but he doesn’t test positive on a hoof tester and he is sound, so blocking is probably pointless at this point. We did block originally and took x rays before, during and after treatment of NPA. Same with an MRI other than it could tell for sure if there is a problem in the structures we can’t see.
We think the shoulder problem is a result of the NPA. There could very well be an Injury (maybe old now) that has resulted in scar tissue. He’s loading a lot of the weight in the shoulder and gets twisted and stuck under saddle when I’m asking him to trot off. We’re going to try and treat the shoulder issue first, since the NPA is currently under control. Then at that point I will probably re-evaluate foot and shoulder and discuss an MRI.
Also to answer to another comment above, it’s not kinesiology tape. It’s a vet that does the treatment - I believe it’s a form of acupuncture, but like juiced up lol
But if there was some soft tissue stress due to low angles, it can take months to heal. And if you have been working the horse during this time or he’s on turnout, it may be delaying healing. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have been working him or the horse should have been on stall rest. A nerve block of the whole hoof would be a pretty cheap way to confirm that the foot is not bothering the horse at all.
Then moving forward with rehab and retraining for the compensation he may have been doing is a good idea. Those Sure Foot Pads might be helpful for retraining the muscles of the shoulder sling.
I have a coming 4 year old WB who is not a forward horse, has a low pressure threshold, etc. and I will admit I’m not looking forward to his 5 and 6 year old years when it seems like a lot of young horses start throwing around their strength to get out of work. You may be in the same situation with this horse, but knowing there was a physical issue, I’d still follow up with a block.
The horse had time off a few months with fixing the NPA. Vet said turnout was fine (he’s very quiet in turnout) and actually wanted him moving. When he was actually lame from the NPA, we used the block.
Not sure how we could use the block at this point when he isn’t lame. Even if the shoulder is a direct cause, we know it’s locked up, so I don’t think blocking the foot in this instance is going to help him trot off right away.
I’ll express my concerns with the vet I’ve been using as well as the one doing his treatment and discuss blocking, but I think I need to stick with my path I’m on right now. I need to at least give it some time to say “this works” or “this doesn’t work” before I work down the next thing on my list.
If helping his shoulder doesn’t elevate this problem, then I’m going back to the drawing board and looking deeper into the foot problem or further diagnosing the shoulder in conjunction. Clinically, the foot is in good shape NPA wise. I think my next steps will be going for an MRI at that point and looking deeper into the foot. Just really hard to make some decisions with the horse is currently sound and goes extremely well when he’s ridden properly.
Ahhh I see what you mean here. Try the block while riding and see if the behavior goes away.
Not a terrible idea, I may still try and see what the next week brings with controlling the shoulders better and then go from there. Like someone mentioned above the chicken before the egg ordeal. Who knows what is leading to one over the other! This has been the most success I’ve had the last few months, so I really want to see how much I can help him alone with this!
If it is the foot, I think I want to spend the money to really know what’s going on structurally in the foot. Although I’ll try the riding block before hand! Thanks for all the posts from everyone thus far. Everyone has and continues to be incredibly helpful!!
It sounds like you are starting to peel back the layers of the onion. I do commend you for trusting your gut and exploring the options about what is going on in his body vs just his brain. While I totally will say, brains vary (and likely are harder to change than bodies) and horses can just be naughty… change in behaviour or performance generally point to a change somewhere. Sometimes that change is in their body. So good on ya for considering it all.
I just wanted to add a couple pieces to the discussion. NPA is being found so detrimental not just for the effects on the hoof itself, but for the strain it puts on structures above the hoof. Especially in the hind hoof (as it is connected through myofascial chains all the way through the topline up to the poll) but there are definitely knock-on effects from the front feet as well. So, the fact you see effects in the shoulder is not surprising. And now, although it’s great the angles are being remedied, this is another adjustment the soft tissue need to make.
Secondly, I am not nearly as well versed in nutrition and the muscle disorders as the posters who have already given you advice. However, I was recently listening to a podcast about conditioning, and the vet on it made some mention of some horses not coming out great basically because they didn’t cool down well. They didn’t dive too much into the disorders on the episode (I think they were trying to keep the interview under 5 hours, lol), but I can see where some of them could make that cycle perpetuate. She was also a big proponent of electrolytes as needed, and since you mention being worse in hot weather, it may be something to consider.
Yes, that’s what I was trying to convey with “block the foot.” If he does the behavior on the lunge, you could just block and lunge as well. And see if you could do a longer lasting block possibly and bring the horse out and lunge or ride a few times over a couple of hours to see if the behavior decreases with the hoof numb. He may have some “pain memory” and still be a bit resistant the first few trot transitions.
I think a hoof block is a cheap and quick on-the-farm method to rule out any remaining issues with hoof pain.
@JB does the Ultra Cruz Natural Vitamin E pellets need to be given in oil to be properly absorbed?? I remember Dr Kellon stating as such about vitamin e
