Resistant horse!

[theresak]

But if there was some soft tissue stress due to low angles, it can take months to heal. And if you have been working the horse during this time or he’s on turnout, it may be delaying healing. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have been working him or the horse should have been on stall rest. A nerve block of the whole hoof would be a pretty cheap way to confirm that the foot is not bothering the horse at all.

Then moving forward with rehab and retraining for the compensation he may have been doing is a good idea. Those Sure Foot Pads might be helpful for retraining the muscles of the shoulder sling.

I have a coming 4 year old WB who is not a forward horse, has a low pressure threshold, etc. and I will admit I’m not looking forward to his 5 and 6 year old years when it seems like a lot of young horses start throwing around their strength to get out of work. You may be in the same situation with this horse, but knowing there was a physical issue, I’d still follow up with a block.

[WbHunter88]

The horse had time off a few months with fixing the NPA. Vet said turnout was fine (he’s very quiet in turnout) and actually wanted him moving. When he was actually lame from the NPA, we used the block.

Not sure how we could use the block at this point when he isn’t lame. Even if the shoulder is a direct cause, we know it’s locked up, so I don’t think blocking the foot in this instance is going to help him trot off right away.

I’ll express my concerns with the vet I’ve been using as well as the one doing his treatment and discuss blocking, but I think I need to stick with my path I’m on right now. I need to at least give it some time to say “this works” or “this doesn’t work” before I work down the next thing on my list.

If helping his shoulder doesn’t elevate this problem, then I’m going back to the drawing board and looking deeper into the foot problem or further diagnosing the shoulder in conjunction. Clinically, the foot is in good shape NPA wise. I think my next steps will be going for an MRI at that point and looking deeper into the foot. Just really hard to make some decisions with the horse is currently sound and goes extremely well when he’s ridden properly.

[IPEsq]

For my problem horse, sometimes we would block during a ridden exam to see if the behavior changed. Sometimes it did!

[WbHunter88]

Ahhh I see what you mean here. Try the block while riding and see if the behavior goes away.
Not a terrible idea, I may still try and see what the next week brings with controlling the shoulders better and then go from there. Like someone mentioned above the chicken before the egg ordeal. Who knows what is leading to one over the other! This has been the most success I’ve had the last few months, so I really want to see how much I can help him alone with this!

If it is the foot, I think I want to spend the money to really know what’s going on structurally in the foot. Although I’ll try the riding block before hand! Thanks for all the posts from everyone thus far. Everyone has and continues to be incredibly helpful!!

[Pally]

It sounds like you are starting to peel back the layers of the onion. I do commend you for trusting your gut and exploring the options about what is going on in his body vs just his brain. While I totally will say, brains vary (and likely are harder to change than bodies) and horses can just be naughty… change in behaviour or performance generally point to a change somewhere. Sometimes that change is in their body. So good on ya for considering it all.

I just wanted to add a couple pieces to the discussion. NPA is being found so detrimental not just for the effects on the hoof itself, but for the strain it puts on structures above the hoof. Especially in the hind hoof (as it is connected through myofascial chains all the way through the topline up to the poll) but there are definitely knock-on effects from the front feet as well. So, the fact you see effects in the shoulder is not surprising. And now, although it’s great the angles are being remedied, this is another adjustment the soft tissue need to make.

Secondly, I am not nearly as well versed in nutrition and the muscle disorders as the posters who have already given you advice. However, I was recently listening to a podcast about conditioning, and the vet on it made some mention of some horses not coming out great basically because they didn’t cool down well. They didn’t dive too much into the disorders on the episode (I think they were trying to keep the interview under 5 hours, lol), but I can see where some of them could make that cycle perpetuate. She was also a big proponent of electrolytes as needed, and since you mention being worse in hot weather, it may be something to consider.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

ooh, that sounds interesting - podcast link??

[Pally]

@Mouse_amp_Bay

ooh, that sounds interesting - podcast link??

Oh yeah… I meant to do that and forgot. It was Equine Bodytalks actually the “Fatigue” episode. https://omny.fm/shows/equine-bodytalks/015-fatigue-what-to-know-and-watch-for

[theresak]

@IPEsq

For my problem horse, sometimes we would block during a ridden exam to see if the behavior changed. Sometimes it did!

Yes, that’s what I was trying to convey with “block the foot.” If he does the behavior on the lunge, you could just block and lunge as well. And see if you could do a longer lasting block possibly and bring the horse out and lunge or ride a few times over a couple of hours to see if the behavior decreases with the hoof numb. He may have some “pain memory” and still be a bit resistant the first few trot transitions.

I think a hoof block is a cheap and quick on-the-farm method to rule out any remaining issues with hoof pain.

[ladipus]

@JB does the Ultra Cruz Natural Vitamin E pellets need to be given in oil to be properly absorbed?? I remember Dr Kellon stating as such about vitamin e

[JB]

No, no oil/fat is needed for horses.

Vit E requires bile to be micellized so it can cross the intestinal barrier.
Horses constantly produce bile since they have no gall bladder, and because bile is also needed to digest fat.
Horses are constantly eating some low level of fat - it’s in their hay/grass.

Bile production can increase in the presence of a larger meal of concentrates, and since I don’t think anyone just feeds Vit E on its own, it’s always at least mixed with some hay pellets or something, if not added to a ration balancer or regular feed, then bile increases already. No extra fat required.

I don’t know why Dr K keeps saying horses need a fat source along with Vit E.

[ladipus]

@WbHunter88 I’m just finding and reading your story now …I have a similar situation with my 11yr old Wb mare …she was not willing to go forward and was very behind your leg at the beginning of our rides …felt very blah and sluggish , easily fatigued and would be occasionally cranky when groomed and tacked up as well as occasional spooking -but otherwise nothing else wrong other than general exercise intolerance mostly at the beginning of our rides …I brought her down to University of Pennsylvania New Bolten Center for a full work up …a lameness exam &physical exam …bloodwork all normal except low end of normal vitamin e levels , all metabolic bloodwork within normal limits -she has been managed as IR due to previous laminitis after steroids given for allergies….vets suspected pssm and possibly respiratory issues …so they did a BAL, upper airway scope and a muscle biopsy …turns out she has pssm2, MFM , and VEM as well as asthma…she was already more or less on the proper diet -she gets Hygain Zero and Vermont Blend …and they had me put her on KER MFM pellets- although it does have soy which she’s allergic too , KER NanoQ10, Emcelle Vitamin E, and KER EO3 for the asthma (we did try Aleira but it didn’t seem to help) I also give her Smartbreathe Ultra and add additional Spirulina and Jiagulon.
I would like to find a replacement for the KER MFM pellets because if the soy and also it’s crazy expensive over $300 for a 5 wk supply …I can’t say that it makes a big difference-so I’m looking for an alternative for that …the main component is Cystiene which most other horse amino acid supplements don’t contain or if they do not nearly the amount that’s in KER MFM pellets …the alternative is to get it through bulk supplements…but apparently cystiene doesn’t smell or taste good so that might be an issue.

Dr Kellon from the ECIR group also has a EPSM/PSSM group …she recommends Uckele Muscle Eq but again it doesn’t contain cysteine

Foxden Equine makes Top Form …it actually has cystiene but in a minuscule amount compared to the KER product

@JB do you have any alternatives to the KER MFM Pellets

[WbHunter88]

So the horse actually had/has lymes and required 3 rounds of heavy treatment. Saddle also played a huge part in other behavioral pieces that showed up/became lame. But I’m happy to report he’s doing absolutely phenomenal!

[IPEsq]

I think any of the BCAA products plus cysteine could replace the KER pellets.

I haven’t bought this specific product, but I have bought from this source (good place to find fenugreek powder to flavor feed, for example) —

N-Acetyl L-Cysteine (NAC)

[JB]

@ladipus

@JB do you have any alternatives to the KER MFM Pellets

That looks to be a combination of BCAAs (branch chain amino acids), cysteine, and the top 3 limiting AAs. So any BCAA product (including for people) can work, dosed to get similar numbers, and then there are several products with these 3 amino acids - Tri-Amino, Nutramino, and Three Amigos are 3 I can think of offhand. Cysteine is available a lot of places, often human bulk shops are the most cost effective.

[ladipus]

@JB would something like this be comparable

https://www.scahealth.com/p/ultracruz-equine-bcaa;jsessionid=BN0VhvnCAek0NPS_t0TA8dqviOHnz2A5U8KWX0TwkSSSLBsgT3F1!334708634!1679693380034?lang=en&cur=usd&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlPWgBhDHARIsAH2xdNcKqfPSU01NxkmHm6E_Pjgyq2RS0OWg3-AQHPhZsa3GctVhCiFlx_saAnZWEALw_wcB

Or this

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=5a09a015-74a8-4c77-a7c0-816b41487416

This looks good but not nearly similar amounts compared to the KER product

https://www.smartpakequine.com/ps/smartmuscle-mass-pellets-11814

She gets a full serving of Vermont Blend which I believe provides the top 3 amino acids and then maybe adding cystiene ??

[Atlas_Shrugged]

I had a horse like that and blamed it on adhesions he got from peritonitis from a bleeding ulcer while at a trainers - he was never right after that but it would crop up at the oddest times- often half-way through a course. I had another horse who would not move a step in any french tree saddles but was instantly cured with a Stubben because it freed his shoulder. Hope you get to the bottom of it