Not knocking this off the list, just don’t think I’m quite there yet. My old vet, who I hold to very high standards that saw this in the beginning, didn’t think the neck was causing this. He did a neuro exam and palpated. While I know this doesn’t rule it out and x ray can really only determine this for sure, we both agreed it wasn’t to that point yet to explore that.
I was riding a young warmblood for someone not long ago was going through a nasty streak of refusing to go forward and would rear up if you pushed her hard enough to do it. Much worse behavior and eventually went lame. Ended up being neck related and needing injections. I know all horses manifest pain differently, but in my experience a neck issue feels different than what my horse is experiencing. Not to discredit a neck problem and I’m not ruling this out by any means, but I’d like to address a few other things before I jump to neck and back x rays. Neck has been in the back of my mind for a while. I think part of me is terrified to take them and have it be a neck issue
Supplementing is fine. Human whey isolate protein powder is what a lot of people use, as a cheaper source than something like a commercial equine whey protein supp
I see you realized it’s 1000IU/scoop But also, that 1 scoop has 5gm sugar, so just 50gm if you were feeding 10 scoops. For reference, 20lb of hay with a very low 5% sugar is 454gm of sugar.
But also - again lol - if you’re going to spend all that $$ feeding a not-cheap product like Elevate Maintenance, I would really consider a much cheaper option. 10 scoops of the regular Maintenance would be $4.33 a DAY, the Concentrate (5000IU/scoop) is probably a little cheaper.
If you’re looking at 10,000IU I would switch to the water-soluble Emcelle for $2.20/10,000 IU and you wouldn’t even really need that much since it’s much more bioavailable.
Many years ago I had to smack my horse with a crop to get him moving in his first trot. He wasn’t being lazy, or refusing to go, or lame, or anything and once he got rolling he was fine.
I had the vet take a look and they did some general blood tests. He was very low in selenium and some muscle enzymes popped - we got injections for the selenium issue and ten days of skeletal muscle relaxers, with a feed supplement (Se & vit E) for after the injections.
This was back when PSSM was just starting to be recognized. I had read something about it in Equus and asked the vet if that could be the problem. The only test needed a disturbingly large chunk off muscle and most people just changed the diet as it was safe for non- PSSM horses. That was the low carb, high fat diet. None of the feed companies understood what PSSM needed so using alfalfa pellets as the oil carrier was common.
I was feeding a half cup (like the measuring cups you’d bake with) of standard horse pellets once a day (an experiment in doubling that actually made things worse) and apart from the supplemental selenium and vitamin E I was doing everything else right for PSSM management. Four months later I had a different horse.
He has occasionally stored too much glycogen and it does manifest as NQR but not identifiably lame at the beginning of the ride. How long that lasts depends on how much glycogen he’s stored.
I hope you find the solution for your horse, whatever it is.
Thanks, not to derail this thread too much, but I did use the Elavate liquid when I first started him on the vitamin e to get it into his system faster. Now that we are maintaining I am at 5,000 per day & I just throw 5 human gelcaps in his feed - he gobbles them up & much cheaper that elavate…
Take him outside of the ring, get his mind stimulated. It could be physical, but it could also be boredom. I had a mare in for training that violently kicked out before the first trot, but only in the arena. Absolutely nothing wrong with her physically (we checked EVERYTHING). Haul him off site if you can, let him be fresh and see the world and realize it’s not all about going round and round in circles.
After a month you might have a totally different horse. Good luck!
I reeeeeaalllyyyy wish people would quit saying “there’s NOTHING wrong with him physically”. I don’t care if you vet said so, I don’t care if 10 vets said so, I don’t care if you did 20 grand in diagnostics. There is no amount of testing that rules out all pain and they can’t talk to you and tell you they are pain free. “We can not find anything physically wrong with the horse” is what you should be saying.
I reeeeeeeaalllyyyy wish people wouldn’t jump to conclusions and think they know how I treat my horses or what was done with the horse or how she acted in every scenario.
Well even more exciting news! I’m pretty positive we have the issue figured out!
Had biomechanics trainer out and was very very helpful to have fresh set of eyes from the ground (not sure how no other trainer picked this up). His NPA shoulder is really really locked up and he can’t move out. When I’m asking for the trot, he’s throwing his weight on his shoulder, like a minuscule amount that it’s hard to really feel. I could feel his hind quarters disengaging, and was riding the hind legs straight, but his shoulders were still unbalanced. Once you counter bend him and get him balanced evenly on the shoulders he trots off no problem. I was actually to get a swinging walk for the first time ever tonight.
Further testing this theory, I dropped the reins once in the trot, he threw his shoulder out and unbalanced and shut down. Couldn’t trot through the corner. Straight aways are a lot easier once he’s trotting.
So next steps are continuing to keep riding like tonight and we’re also having someone out that specializes in muscles to come work on specifically the shoulder, but his also whole body. I can’t remember exactly what it is she does, but I’ll keep updating as this progresses and after he’s had his treatments. I’m so hopeful!! I felt some amazing things out of this horse tonight and I don’t think we’ve even tapped anywhere near his full potential.
Even though I may have found the cause I am still keeping him on the vitamin e and switching to one of the options listed above. Thanks for the insight on this!! I just grabbed elevate because it was readily available and highly recommended by others. For as much as a nutrition freak I am, I’m really surprised I missed the sugar in it and all the other flaws
Not to derail the thread but: Can I get a list of the Vitamin E options and which are the cheapest? My guy is on Elevate and it takes months to go through the little container but I’m always for saving cash.
Do you think he could possibly still have some pain in the NPA hoof?
I wonder if he’s got some strain or damage to the soft tissue in the hoof from the NPA. I might have missed it, but have you ever blocked the hoof to see if that improves the first trot? Also, have you xrayed the hoof again to confirm you have corrected the angles?
Yeah I would probably do some blocks on that leg to make sure he isn’t compensating for a brewing chronic repetitive injury caused by NPA. They can also rarely have some pathology in the shoulder (spurs, arthritis, bursitis). It could be a chicken/egg thing causing them to load that foot differently and maybe exacerbating the NPA issue you are having trouble getting on top of.
At least you have a way to help the horse now from a training perspective and a place to focus physical diagnostics.
But sometimes there really IS nothing wrong with the horse, it’s all “attitude”.
WB stallion approvals look at the trainability of a stallion. How willing is he to work and “do the right thing” and try. There’s a reason for this. Most horses are inherently willing to please and be a good partner. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t have lasted in domestication.
But some horses are not interested. They may comply and do as little as possible. They may be totally fine with low level work that really doesn’t push them to the edge of their comfort zone. But if you ask them to actually work, even if it’s just proper work in w/t/c (which most amateurs don’t now how to ask for), they resist and are willing to spend more time telling us no, than actually just doing the work. Thankfully these horses are the minority. But there are lines in any given breed that are known for being very difficult to train for no reason other than their genetics are a horse who is not willing to put forth a lot of effort.
Some horses are pretty trainable, but their early intro to work has been “it’s ok, I know it’s hard, we don’t have to do that”, or they’ve just never been asked to do real work. Some question everything every step of the way to make sure you’re reeeeaaallyy actually serious about it. They learn they can avoid real work, and if they are suddenly asked to do things the right way, they may well go “wth, no, this is not how my life works, we do this MY way”. The “good” horse may just resist. The more opinionated horse may kick or buck or just plant his feet.
There’s so much more that goes into a horse not doing as we ask than physical barriers
That said, I agree that a lot of people do chalk too much up to a training issue and never go digging for physical issues. They ride in saddles that don’t fit, they have taught a horse it’s ok to run around with a hollow back, they don’t even know what they don’t know about hoof care and the feet are in terrible shape. A lot of that is, IMHO, simply not understanding the horse (as a species, let alone their particular one).
Assume first it’s your training problem. YOU, not the horse. Most of the time it is, simply because most amateurs don’t get enough, or any, quality instruction on how to ride, they are merely passengers who can stay on (maybe). Then if you are SURE it’s not the training (and put the ego aside), assume it’s a physical issue. And then, in the pretty uncommon case, it may simply be who that horse is.
Yep! I recently learned about Micronutrients brand. Their capsules are 1200IU, which means you can get in the $.05/1000IU range. UltraCruz is still very inexpensive at $.13/1000IU. Puritan’s Pride and some other human gel caps are also in the $.10-.13/1000IU range
That was my original thought too, but the horse is sound and vet was very happy with improvements of the foot that had the NPA, via x ray. I suppose there is still a possibility something more is involved, like soft tissue injury or heel pain still, but he doesn’t test positive on a hoof tester and he is sound, so blocking is probably pointless at this point. We did block originally and took x rays before, during and after treatment of NPA. Same with an MRI other than it could tell for sure if there is a problem in the structures we can’t see.
We think the shoulder problem is a result of the NPA. There could very well be an Injury (maybe old now) that has resulted in scar tissue. He’s loading a lot of the weight in the shoulder and gets twisted and stuck under saddle when I’m asking him to trot off. We’re going to try and treat the shoulder issue first, since the NPA is currently under control. Then at that point I will probably re-evaluate foot and shoulder and discuss an MRI.
Also to answer to another comment above, it’s not kinesiology tape. It’s a vet that does the treatment - I believe it’s a form of acupuncture, but like juiced up lol
But also, that 1 scoop has 5gm sugar, so just 50gm if you were feeding 10 scoops. For reference, 20lb of hay with a very low 5% sugar is 454gm of sugar.
