Resocialization advice?

[njdressage]

Hi all,
I have a wonderful mare who is an absolute joy, though she has this one major issue, and I really worry how much it impacts her quality of life. I have had her for a year- She has very good ground manners, is also great under saddle, and does not exhibit any stereotypic behaviors. She was, reportedly, bubble-wrapped in her first 7 years (she had one owner during this time), and was only turned out for around 1-2 hours, alone, for most of that time.

She cannot tolerate other horses near her. If she’s trailering with another horse, she kicks constantly, sometimes even bucking (she is totally fine alone). During turnout, she squeals, snaps and kicks if another horse in a different pasture so much as looks in her direction, and does not stop. In her stall, or whenever she encounters another horse, it is the same. My boarding barn won’t consider trying to turn her out with anyone in the same pasture, as they feel she has the capacity to be quite aggressive.

I had an extremely thorough PPE, and since, she’s had an ovarian ultrasound (nothing found), and has been put on regumate to see if it would help. It hasn’t. She has been thoroughly assessed for any vet issues, and does not exhibit any concerning behaviors apart from her issues interacting with other horses.

I feel equine socialization is so important (vital, actually!), and feel terrible that this seems largely due to her not really been given the opportunity to learn how to be horse with other horses.

Has anyone had experience in resocializing their horse? Is this something a behaviorist could help with?

She seems quite content in being left alone, but knowing what I know about ethical equine management, this just feels so wrong.

Open to any and all feedback.

[Demerara_Stables]

This is a really tough situation and takes a very experienced person/people to help her.

First, has she been scoped for ulcers? I had one mare that acted just like this when she came to me, and it was ulcer pain (she had just started treatment when she came to my barn). As we turned her out more and the ulcers healed, she became a very kind herd member.

If she scopes clean, my next step would be an animal communicator. She may have some emotional baggage/fear that’s causing this reaction.

If you want to move to just trying to socialize her, you’ll need a horse that will pretty much ignore her antics, and two pastures or LARGE paddocks (100x100 minimum) with an incredibly safe fence in between (I have Centaur fencing). If she’s the type to go through the fence, then I’d start with a line of electric tape at the top too. She’ll need to be next to that horse for a while - until she ignores it, and ideally until she starts wanting to stand next to it.

Once they are ignoring each other, or better yet, acting friendly, they can go together in a large pasture (3-4 acres). This is where it’s tricky - I totally understand the barn management not wanting to put her with another horse, and they’re not wrong. Either horse could get seriously hurt if she really goes after the other horse. Ideally, you would own the other horse as asking someone to put their horse in that scenario is less than ideal (or impossible). When she does go out with someone else, there needs to be plenty of grass to keep them occupied (but not hay that she might be protective of), and they should each go out with a breakaway halter. I like to have at least one person per horse, and each person has a longe whip to pop at them and drive them away from each other if you need to.

The mare with ulcers I mentioned above also came to me as an 8 year old that had never been turned out with another horse. Her owner was told by her breeder that she couldn’t go out with other horses because she was “too big” and at previous barns she had also acted aggressive towards other horses across the fence. She’s now the benevolent leader of my small herd. She’s only had run ins with my personal mare who is, quite honestly, a little bully. They took a couple of months to stop getting into fights but now they get along quite well. She’s very kind to everyone else.

It’s a long road and potentially dangerous, so you may not be able to find a way to socialize her unless you own another horse and have them on your own property - unfortunately not many people feel the way that you and I do, that socialization is incredibly important, and a requirement for all horses. Thank you for fighting for her and I wish you luck in working it out!

[Bluey]

@njdressage

Hi all,
I have a wonderful mare who is an absolute joy, though she has this one major issue, and I really worry how much it impacts her quality of life. I have had her for a year- She has very good ground manners, is also great under saddle, and does not exhibit any stereotypic behaviors. She was, reportedly, bubble-wrapped in her first 7 years (she had one owner during this time), and was only turned out for around 1-2 hours, alone, for most of that time.

She cannot tolerate other horses near her. If she’s trailering with another horse, she kicks constantly, sometimes even bucking (she is totally fine alone). During turnout, she squeals, snaps and kicks if another horse in a different pasture so much as looks in her direction, and does not stop. In her stall, or whenever she encounters another horse, it is the same. My boarding barn won’t consider trying to turn her out with anyone in the same pasture, as they feel she has the capacity to be quite aggressive.

I had an extremely thorough PPE, and since, she’s had an ovarian ultrasound (nothing found), and has been put on regumate to see if it would help. It hasn’t. She has been thoroughly assessed for any vet issues, and does not exhibit any concerning behaviors apart from her issues interacting with other horses.

I feel equine socialization is so important (vital, actually!), and feel terrible that this seems largely due to her not really been given the opportunity to learn how to be horse with other horses.

Has anyone had experience in resocializing their horse? Is this something a behaviorist could help with?

She seems quite content in being left alone, but knowing what I know about ethical equine management, this just feels so wrong.

Open to any and all feedback.

What we know about ethical management is that every individual is who it is and we should honor that best we can.
We are already altering their true natural state by domesticating them.

So what if she wants to have her space and no other horses around?
As long as she is contented, why try to make her fit any one else’s idea of what we need to do with horses?

I have a problem with trying to make all horses fit a mold of our invention, when plenty horses out there clearly don’t fit them.
We had a few like that and eventually, after our vet telling us plenty of times to let them be who they are, learned to do just that.

Rather than trying to find a solution where there is no problem, being contented by adjusting her management to her idiosyncrasies may be one solution.

[endlessclimb]

Agree with bluey. For the trailer, I’d put anklets on her - that is something she needs to learn to cope with.

[Foxglove]

As I’ve mentioned before here, I bought Bob for way below his value because he cannot be turned out with other horses. He is herd aggressive. Bob has his own 5 acre pasture, 3 sided shed, and seems content to glare at horses across the fence --works for us.

[Bluey]

We had one horse that won two little reining futurities and now older was used as a ranch horse and got along fine in our herd with four other geldings of assorted ages.
From first introduction, all loved and followed him wanting to be his friend and he was fine with that.
He became their boss without ever even making a mean face, just by being who he was.

After a bit, he started taking over to gently nudge them here and there, out of the pens to graze, give them so long to nap on the sand pile, then driving them to the pens for a drink and back out to graze, finding good grazing spots, letting them grace for a bit and again driving them … ALL DAY AND NIGHT LONG.

Horses were not getting much rest, one old horse was getting footsore.
We put new sweet horse by himself, along the mile long fence of their adjacent pastures and both coming into the same pens, same waterers, now him behind a fence from them.

New horse was contented, he would come and go, graze at his pleasure and come back and take naps, would not even look at the other four horses across the fence.

The other four would stand by the fence, waiting for him.
When he went grazing they would follow along the fence and graze, when he went back in follow back to the pens and water and be fed. if he napped they napped.

We finally let new horse go to a different home, where he had his own kid in 4H to do all that fun stuff with, had his own stall and run and pasture and was his own happy self.
They had an old retired horse that had his own stall, run and pasture also.
They told us they ignored each other.

The other four went back to their own old routine, at their own slower pace, old horse not footsore any more.
He didn’t need that much continued exercise as the new horse provided.

Some horses are just not like we expect, our task to figure how to make life work for them, best we humans can figure with what they show us.

[Foxglove]

@Bluey -Bob has Ranch Horse in his CV --like the horse in your post, he never really attacked other horses, just push-bump-push-bump 24/7. Previous owner had no way to separate and her old horse was getting thin with Bob constantly pushing him. So, happy with me (so far).

I kind of wonder if it might be an innate or even reenforced behavior. Bob is a wiz with cows --where his “pushy-ness” is expected and rewarded.

Maybe the herd aggression is Bob-being-Bob.

[Bluey]

@Foxglove

@Bluey -Bob has Ranch Horse in his CV --like the horse in your post, he never really attacked other horses, just push-bump-push-bump 24/7. Previous owner had no way to separate and her old horse was getting thin with Bob constantly pushing him. So, happy with me (so far).

I kind of wonder if it might be an innate or even reenforced behavior. Bob is a wiz with cows --where his “pushy-ness” is expected and rewarded.

Maybe the herd aggression is Bob-being-Bob.

You are right, Skippy was great on cattle also.
Maybe some horses inherit cow herding instinct a bit over the top?

That is the second horse we had from many that I know that did that.
The other, Boots, he won cow horse futurities, did the same.
Both were excellent, quiet, sensible, smart horses, just had that quirk things need to be moving and other horses in their herd were their handy target.

Tightly bred border collies also can be like that.
One we had when we were training them, if not busy, when the wind would blow, would run up and down the dirt road in front of the house, her feet stirring up dust balls she then chased down trying to herd them.
We had to keep her penned up.

[luvmyhackney]

Do you own a second horse to try turning out with your mare?

As a boarder, I wouldn’t want my horse to be the Guinea pig on this experiment.

I’d offer special yummy hay and clicker train for trailering plus chains.

[njdressage]

Hey, thank you so much for this! It’s all really helpful. She has scoped clean! She did have some ulcers when I first got her, though she went through a successful course of treatment, and upon rescope, she’s all clear.

I really appreciate you taking the time to go through how you would go about introducing her to a horse. I also have though about the animal communicator thing - it’s a bit woo woo for sure, but I’ve heard people have some really interesting/positive experiences, so it may be worth looking into, bc, why not!?

[njdressage]

Hey, I really appreciate this comment, too. I’m currently in an equine behavior course, and I’m admittedly grappling with finding the balance between what I’m learning is “best practices” vs. what my horse seems to want. My trainer and vet (who is wonderful, and I really trust her) has essentially said what you have said - my mare doesn’t ‘act’ like this is a problem for her (she seems quite content in most of her day to day life) so perhaps I’m making too much of it.

[njdressage]

I don’t! Which definitely complicates things, and I totally understand my barn owner’s/other boarder’s trepidation (I would feel the same way! I don’t want anyone to get hurt!).

Good thought on the chains for trailering.

[beowulf]

Coming in with a differing perspective that we have two horses that came to us with the disclosure they “could not be turned out with other horses or else!!!” and they were fine. They’re out in a herd now, both middle of the pack on the totem pole. Been a few years that way. We put them in with the boss first, then gradually added the others. No issue. Some galloping around though.

It breaks my heart to see and take care of horses that have been alone their entire lives. They are different. You can tell. So many people let them down along the way. Those horses are often not a joy to handle from the barn side, FYI - they don’t understand boundaries the same way and tend to be rude and pushy.

The answer may be somewhere in the middle of “keep alone” and “turnout with friends”.

Sometimes the horses that are really aggressive over the fence are resource guarding and insecure. I do not love introductory periods through the fence for that reason as most horses tend to feel proprietary about THEIR fenceline. Same goes for stalls - horses tend to be much more aggressive to their neighbors in stalls. I prefer to do introduction through hand grazing first, a few sessions - and then in a neutral paddock. This is not a realistic practice for most boarding barns though.

Best practice is to do so in a large, neutral paddock where galloping is not risky, horses are not at risk of sliding into fences or boards, and the resources are spread out enough that if one horse says unequivocally G-T-F-O that the other horse has ample space to do so. Another best practice would be to seriously weigh the temperaments and limitations of both parties before introducing them: if you have a geriatric horse that has some physical limitations, don’t make him the guinea pig of your Chucky Doll horse that paces the fence line at Formula One speeds.

Unless you own another horse willing to be a guinea pig, your mare may be stuck alone. Horses can and do get killed by other horses. All it takes is a kick in a bad place.

[Bluey]

@beowulf

Coming in with a differing perspective that we have two horses that came to us with the disclosure they “could not be turned out with other horses or else!!!” and they were fine. They’re out in a herd now, both middle of the pack on the totem pole. Been a few years that way. We put them in with the boss first, then gradually added the others. No issue. Some galloping around though.

It breaks my heart to see and take care of horses that have been alone their entire lives. They are different. You can tell. So many people let them down along the way. Those horses are often not a joy to handle from the barn side, FYI - they don’t understand boundaries the same way and tend to be rude and pushy.

The answer may be somewhere in the middle of “keep alone” and “turnout with friends”.

Sometimes the horses that are really aggressive over the fence are resource guarding and insecure. I do not love introductory periods through the fence for that reason as most horses tend to feel proprietary about THEIR fenceline. Same goes for stalls - horses tend to be much more aggressive to their neighbors in stalls. I prefer to do introduction through hand grazing first, a few sessions - and then in a neutral paddock. This is not a realistic practice for most boarding barns though.

Best practice is to do so in a large, neutral paddock where galloping is not risky, horses are not at risk of sliding into fences or boards, and the resources are spread out enough that if one horse says unequivocally G-T-F-O that the other horse has ample space to do so. Another best practice would be to seriously weigh the temperaments and limitations of both parties before introducing them: if you have a geriatric horse that has some physical limitations, don’t make him the guinea pig of your Chucky Doll horse that paces the fence line at Formula One speeds.

Unless you own another horse willing to be a guinea pig, your mare may be stuck alone. Horses can and do get killed by other horses. All it takes is a kick in a bad place.

Right, I am sure there are all kinds of horses out there that fit in all managements.
Figuring how it works for each is the trick.

We bought a nice 5 year old that was not disclosed had to be kept alone as he was aggressive to other horses, we found that later.
All we were told is that he was kept alone last year.

No barrier aggression, as we put him in pens by the herd, that came visit and not even a pinned ear or squeal.
After a few days, time to turn him out, four other geldings, oldest 14 and very soft, shy horse.
Put out several flakes of alfalfa, what we use for supplement to our winter grasses, about double the horses.
Turned new horse out with them, he walked around looking things over, found a flake and went to eating, just as every other was doing.
After a few bites, he ran at the meek gelding, grabbed him by the neck in front of the withers, was shaking him and knocked him down, kneed on him and was still trying to shake him by the time I reached them and got him off.
Caught new horse and put him by himself, checked other horse and he seemed ok, just teeth marks on his neck.

We sure didn’t want to mess with that horse, normal horses just don’t do that.
Talking to a friend trainer, he said his neighbors were looking for a horse for their teenager ranch kid and he had been thinking this new horse would fit him great.
They had a large herd of rough ranch horses and thought they would teach that upstart horse some horse manners.
He called them, they wanted to try horse, kid got along fabulously with horse, after a few days turned him out and they say their old horses seem to have been eyeballing him when across the fence and immediately got after him before he could get any ideas.

Horse ended up with a few bites, but they had him for many years and he made a really good horse for them and never again attacked any horse they knew about.

All of us have our stories, we have introduced new horses in pens by the herd pastures and dozens of horses have been fine when turned out.
This is the only one that ever became so over the top aggressive, it was scary to see.
Best we can do is try whatever we think may work and be ready to change our minds if we are wrong, trying to keep everyone safe all along.

[beowulf]

@Bluey

After a few bites, he ran at the meek gelding, grabbed him by the neck in front of the withers, was shaking him and knocked him down, kneed on him and was still trying to shake him by the time I reached them and got him off.
Caught new horse and put him by himself, checked other horse and he seemed ok, just teeth marks on his neck.

We sure didn’t want to mess with that horse, normal horses just don’t do that.

Oh gosh yes, normal horses do not do that. Those ones I do feel sorry for.

It is much easier to navigate this issue at home, where you can control more aspects than a boarding barn. This would not be a situation I would expect a boarding barn to address – and why should they? It would put their clients at tremendous personal risk.

[Demerara_Stables]

@njdressage

I also have though about the animal communicator thing - it’s a bit woo woo for sure, but I’ve heard people have some really interesting/positive experiences, so it may be worth looking into, bc, why not!?

I was totally a skeptic before I did it for the first time, but I have now talked to almost all of the horses under my care with a communicator. The first time I did it, I thought for $200, it was so much cheaper than all of the other things I was going to try and it ended up solving the problem that day. It really has surprised me the insights she has had over the few years I’ve been working with her. Definitely recommend giving it a try!

[endlessclimb]

That is well over 2x what I’ve ever paid for a reading. OP, worth a shot but very reputable ones come far cheaper.

Well, as reputable as the profession can get I guess.

[Demerara_Stables]

🤷 she definitely targets the show crowd so maybe that’s why she charges more, but she’s been spot on with a lot of horses.

[njdressage]

Thank you!! This was another really helpful perspective! I will see how she does with some hand grazing alongside another horse (we’ve done this a bit, unintentionally, and she’s been fine, actually. She also is okay in warm up rings, going on trails with other horses, etc.) Given everyone’s feedback and our current boarding situation that isn’t likely to change anytime soon, I don’t know if it’s going to be feasible to get her in turnout with a friend, though maybe we can safely make some acquaintances.

[OverandOnward]

@beowulf

It breaks my heart to see and take care of horses that have been alone their entire lives. They are different. You can tell. So many people let them down along the way. Those horses are often not a joy to handle from the barn side, FYI - they don’t understand boundaries the same way and tend to be rude and pushy.

My experience as well with unsocialized horses. Unsocialized to other horses.

Rude and pushy enough that newbie horse people can’t go in the stall with them, or lead them … in fact, need to stay away from them, even when the horse is in cross-ties. Not that the horse is a monster. The horse just doesn’t know what they are expected to do. And the horse is a large animal, with hard feet to step on people … accidentally. Hurts just the same, as an accident.

I feel those horses have been seriously let down by the people who brought them along from birth to whenever they reached maturity with that lack.