Coincidentally the same thing almost happened in Rome a few days to Jos? Verlooy’s horse. Jumped to an oxer and chested it and almost rolled over on its neck.
Accidents happen.
Terrifying thing. Having seen a similar accident in which the rider too ended up on the ground it seems almost miraculous that EK walked away and was able to ride again that day. Personally I think it was the better choice as I know it is very hard to get back on and I really admire those who do. The first thing out of everyone’s mouths should be mazel tov to her for her good luck and getting back in the saddle. I will be interested to hear what happened to the horse. I’m thinking Hickstead was much older and close to retirement when he died. RIP Cambridge.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8163179]
Yes, I agree that the old adage “When you fall off a horse, the best thing to do is to get right back on” applies here.
Many of us have seen the video of Hickstead, but how many remember the tragedy of Buddy Brown and Sandsablaze? This was a horse that Buddy rode in the junior hunters, equitation (winning the Medal finals at age 15?) and then all the way up to representing the USA at the Olympics .
Sandsablaze and Buddy were in a class (Grand Prix?) and Sandsablaze took off at a big oxer, suffered a heart attack/aneurism and was dead when he hit the ground. It was horrible and was the talk of the show world for several years. [There is a book about Buddy and Sandsablaze which might be very good reading since it is all about their partnership and success on the world stage.]
Only the autopsy will tell, but it sounds like the same thing might have happened to Cambridge just as he was taking off.
People who are saying (on FB) that he was still alive because his legs were still moving when he was on the ground must not have seen a horse euthanized. They will often have residuary motor reflexes even after they go down. It does not mean they are “still alive”, but are in “death throes” (violent muscle spasms as the body is shutting down).
Sorry if this is TMI for some people.[/QUOTE]
I remember when the show jumper Hai Karate had a heart attack mid jump with Hap Hansen in a Grand Prix. Hap went on to win the class on another horse.
Actually, Sandsablaze broke his leg, not aneurism.
I will say I got a little bit annoyed at the Facebook comments praising her horsemanship for getting back on and riding her other horses. Getting back on and riding after such a horrible event could be good OR bad horsemanship, depending on the state the rider is in. A rider who is very unsettled and doing badly emotionally should NOT be getting back on another horse to go participate in a high pressure competition, as that is exactly the sort of combination of stresses that leads to mistakes and errors which can result in injury to horse or rider.
The horsemanship comes in where the rider is making a thoughtful and sensible decision as to whether or not they are in a fit state to competently and safely pilot the horse around the required course or obstacles, and whichever option the rider comes to (riding or withdrawing) if it is done FOR THE SAFETY OF HORSE AND RIDER, then THAT is good horsemanship.
I am not saying that Emma showed bad horsemanship in riding - in fact, it sounds like in her case it was an example of good horsemanship because she was able to safely and competently ride the other horses that needed to be ridden. My point is just that the horsemanship is not being in the ring - it is the decision that came before that. The way many people were phrasing it, it rings a little too much of the “whatever happens, get back up and kick on” attitude you encounter in other disciplines, and that attitude can very easily result in decisions which are extremely bad for horse and rider and in no way would count as good horsemanship.
It shows impressive maturity and strength of character that she was able to pull herself together to continue to ride competitively, and it sounds very much like she had exactly the supportive adults she should have had to help her out. I hope she is able to work through what happened in the following days and make whatever peace she needs to so that it doesn’t linger in her mind as a regret or a “what if” and that she can continue to enjoy riding and horses as long as she wants to do so.
(And again, to be very clear - I am not saying she is at all at fault - just that it is natural to wonder if you did something wrong or should have done something differently, and I hope she is able to not get stuck in those thoughts.)
I’m also somewhat uncomfortable with her professionalism being praised so highly. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment, but I feel like calling it professionalism (as opposed to referring to the actual traits involved, like maturity and decision making and internal strength and so on) just feeds into a system which is perhaps tending to put too much pressure on teenagers. (The fact that some teenagers manage to handle it does not mean that it is a good thing to be expecting them all to be mini-pros, you know? We do need to keep in mind that all of these younger riders ARE NOT actually adults yet, and it is not fair to them to pile adult pressures on them or expect them to be able to make decisions in the same way that an adult would - for one, they are still very much in a process of learning who they are and who they will be as adults and they need some breathing room to be able to do that, and for two, your brain really and truly isn’t actually developed properly until you’re in your early 20s, so there are some things that you could ask of young riders that their brains just CANNOT DO. The connections and neurons aren’t properly arranged yet. It’s like looking at a two year old horse who LOOKS mature and expecting that means he can be worked exactly the same and put into the same program as a ten year old. One is actually biologically an adult and the other isn’t, no matter how it looks.)
The thing is-- we do not know. We (the general public who are not the girl’s family, friends or horse connection) are not entitled to know. There is no right to know. She had an unfortunate tragedy ( whatever its cause) play out in the public eye. That does not make her a public figure such as a politician, rock star, or TV or movie star. Whatever the shock of the loss of her horse, it must be another upsetting shock to have social media going to town about the whole thing. Whether people speak in support of her or not, really-- it simply gets back to-- we do not know. We are not entitled to know. There is no right to know.
[QUOTE=TwoStrides;8163252]
I spoke to the show vet personally at Devon today and she confirmed it was a broken neck. :no:[/QUOTE]
That may be the reason he died, but it’s not the reason he fell.
[QUOTE=kdow;8163866]
I will say I got a little bit annoyed at the Facebook comments praising her horsemanship for getting back on and riding her other horses. Getting back on and riding after such a horrible event could be good OR bad horsemanship, depending on the state the rider is in. A rider who is very unsettled and doing badly emotionally should NOT be getting back on another horse to go participate in a high pressure competition, as that is exactly the sort of combination of stresses that leads to mistakes and errors which can result in injury to horse or rider.
The horsemanship comes in where the rider is making a thoughtful and sensible decision as to whether or not they are in a fit state to competently and safely pilot the horse around the required course or obstacles, and whichever option the rider comes to (riding or withdrawing) if it is done FOR THE SAFETY OF HORSE AND RIDER, then THAT is good horsemanship.
I am not saying that Emma showed bad horsemanship in riding - in fact, it sounds like in her case it was an example of good horsemanship because she was able to safely and competently ride the other horses that needed to be ridden. My point is just that the horsemanship is not being in the ring - it is the decision that came before that. The way many people were phrasing it, it rings a little too much of the “whatever happens, get back up and kick on” attitude you encounter in other disciplines, and that attitude can very easily result in decisions which are extremely bad for horse and rider and in no way would count as good horsemanship.
It shows impressive maturity and strength of character that she was able to pull herself together to continue to ride competitively, and it sounds very much like she had exactly the supportive adults she should have had to help her out. I hope she is able to work through what happened in the following days and make whatever peace she needs to so that it doesn’t linger in her mind as a regret or a “what if” and that she can continue to enjoy riding and horses as long as she wants to do so.
(And again, to be very clear - I am not saying she is at all at fault - just that it is natural to wonder if you did something wrong or should have done something differently, and I hope she is able to not get stuck in those thoughts.)
I’m also somewhat uncomfortable with her professionalism being praised so highly. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment, but I feel like calling it professionalism (as opposed to referring to the actual traits involved, like maturity and decision making and internal strength and so on) just feeds into a system which is perhaps tending to put too much pressure on teenagers. (The fact that some teenagers manage to handle it does not mean that it is a good thing to be expecting them all to be mini-pros, you know? We do need to keep in mind that all of these younger riders ARE NOT actually adults yet, and it is not fair to them to pile adult pressures on them or expect them to be able to make decisions in the same way that an adult would - for one, they are still very much in a process of learning who they are and who they will be as adults and they need some breathing room to be able to do that, and for two, your brain really and truly isn’t actually developed properly until you’re in your early 20s, so there are some things that you could ask of young riders that their brains just CANNOT DO. The connections and neurons aren’t properly arranged yet. It’s like looking at a two year old horse who LOOKS mature and expecting that means he can be worked exactly the same and put into the same program as a ten year old. One is actually biologically an adult and the other isn’t, no matter how it looks.)[/QUOTE]
I agree with this 110%. I feel awful for the girl-what a horrible thing to have happened. But those throwing out “maturity” and “professionalism” in this situation really made me uncomfortable. It made me feel like we are teaching kids to not react, not feel, to just go get the job done no matter what.
And while those awful FB comments were uncalled for, I can see how a person can react to seeing this-it does make the kid/trainer/parents look cold hearted from the outside. There’s no doubt that there are riders-juniors,pros,ammies- out there that would continue to ride out of just not caring but no one know how this kid and those associated with her are feeling.
I hope she is doing ok after this. What an awful thing to have happened to a kid.
[QUOTE=Jersey Fresh;8163873]
I agree with this 110%. I feel awful for the girl-what a horrible thing to have happened. But those throwing out “maturity” and “professionalism” in this situation really made me uncomfortable. It made me feel like we are teaching kids to not react, not feel, to just go get the job done no matter what.
And while those awful FB comments were uncalled for, I can see how a person can react to seeing this-it does make the kid/trainer/parents look cold hearted from the outside. There’s no doubt that there are riders-juniors,pros,ammies- out there that would continue to ride out of just not caring but no one know how this kid and those associated with her are feeling.
I hope she is doing ok after this. What an awful thing to have happened to a kid.[/QUOTE]
When it comes to a life with horses, the ability to not react, the ability to put your emotions on the back burner, and the ability to go and get the job done no matter what, can be very valuable. While that often seems cold, especially to those with less mileage with horses, that kind of restraint and control usually makes it much easier to make the best decisions for the animals. Hysterics, while totally understandable in an event such as this, won’t help anyone in the end.
Horses: if you are around them enough, you’re going to lose one every now and then, and it’s the most awful feeling in the world, and it never gets any easier. All you want to do is dig a hole and sob yourself to death in it, but you can’t do that. We as horsemen we don’t get to do that, because it isn’t fair to the other horses that are still very much alive.
I don’t think anyone is teaching the “kids” (I do not consider Emma a “kid”) not to feel or encouraging coldness. I think for the kids that want to be true horsemen, it’s something they learn on their own, and Emma Kurtz is definitely a true horseman. As horrible as it seems, this is one of those things that seperates the kids that are just in it for kicks and giggles and the ones who want a life in this.
Amen, Angelico. It’s the ability to compartmentalize that is a difference between pros and the rest us, and what’s being recognized here. I think there’s a difference between that and being encouraged to repress. It’s a good thing in athletes at the top levels and a important skill for anyone wanting to work with animals professionally. A lot of the kids I knew growing up who had pros as parents or grew up immersed in this world were preternaturally mature. I don’t ever recall anyone worrying that they were being denied their feelings. But then again, this was the 80s and 90s. We had rust breeches and were lax on the helmet thing. 
[QUOTE=HipNo34;8163927]
But then again, this was the 80s and 90s. We had rust breeches and were lax on the helmet thing. :)[/QUOTE]
Oh, my! You made me laugh in this so serious thread! I was so proud of my rust breeches!
Kdow and Hipno, you have both pointed out extremely important points. And Kdow, I particularly appreciate your thoughtfulness in everything you wrote. A lesser writer could have come across as being critical of this rider, which you didn’t do at all.
[QUOTE=m&m;8163985]
Kdow and Hipno, you have both pointed out extremely important points. And Kdow, I particularly appreciate your thoughtfulness in everything you wrote. A lesser writer could have come across as being critical of this rider, which you didn’t do at all.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, I tried very hard to express my general concerns about the overall attitude of some responses I’ve seen WITHOUT being critical of Emma. It actually sounds like she has exactly the sort of support network a rider of her age in her position SHOULD have, and I hope for all the best for her in terms of continuing with whatever she wants to do in life, be that with horses or not.
My concern stems primarily from the fact that we can’t assume that all riders at her level or hoping to get to her level DO have that good support network. And as people keep pointing out, kids and teenagers these days are online and probably are reading the comments, and so they are learning something (even if subconsciously) from what they read. So as members of the overall community these kids are growing up in, I think it is good to occasionally look and say ‘okay, wait, what messages are we actually sending here with what we are saying?’
(I am coming at this somewhat from the perspective of someone who reads the Eventing forum a lot, also, where I think there has historically been a pretty strong connection implied between “horsemanship” and “get back on and keep going” and there are obviously a lot of safety questions being posed in Eventing right now, and some of them involve wondering if that attitude is really a good thing to teach and to have been teaching. So I think that’s why the use of horsemanship stood out to me in some of those comments and rubbed me the wrong way.)
For any young rider who may still be reading - I hope nothing this horrible ever happens to you, but should you be out riding and something bad happens that shakes you up, remember: The horsemanship is in stopping to take stock of youself and honestly answer the question “am I safe and competent to keep going with the way I am feeling and thinking?” If the answer is “no” and so you make sure your horse(s) are taken care of and put back in the barn as necessary, that is just as good a decision from the perspective of horsemanship as is getting on and going into the ring. Because horsemanship is about considering what is best for the horse, first and foremost. Sometimes not riding or getting someone else to take the ride is what is best for the horse. That’s okay.
[QUOTE=Dispatcher;8163871]
That may be the reason he died, but it’s not the reason he fell.[/QUOTE]
From what I’ve heard, he fell simply because the distance got a little too long and reachy… A mistake that could happen to any one of us, and obviously, not an uncommon precursor to a rotational fall.
Was it rotational? Or did he chest it or swim through it? I know…:no:…but I’d really like to know and it was very public. And no, I don’t want to actually see it but that’s a fair question.
In my opinion I would not classify it as a rotational fall. (watched it happen)
The Chronicle got more information from Emma’s trainers, who acted as professionally and correctly as I would have expected. Any rider would be fortunate to have such guidance.
Condolences to everyone involved in this very sad accident.
[QUOTE=MHM;8164431]
The Chronicle got more information from Emma’s trainers, who acted as professionally and correctly as I would have expected. Any rider would be fortunate to have such guidance.
Condolences to everyone involved in this very sad accident.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/node/58498[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this link, it answered my question and should answer the other questions about the rider and decisions that were made brought up by others as well as end speculation.
I have to say that reading the updated article that COTH did, many questions raised here were answered. And I agree that we don’t necessarily have a right to know the answers and we don’t know the people. Its hard, however to read the initial article and not WONDER, and think about what we or our kids might do in such an unfortunate situation. Helpful to know about the horse’s behavior, and interesting to read how many options Emma was given afterwards.
Kudos to her “team” as well as condolences to all involved.
[QUOTE=findeight;8164444]
Thanks for this link, it answered my question and should answer the other questions about the rider and decisions that were made brought up by others as well as end speculation.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Obviously the rider, trainer, owner, et al, owe us no explanation, but I appreciate it.
[QUOTE=2tempe;8164453]
I have to say that reading the updated article that COTH did, many questions raised here were answered. And I agree that we don’t necessarily have a right to know the answers and we don’t know the people. Its hard, however to read the initial article and not WONDER, and think about what we or our kids might do in such an unfortunate situation. Helpful to know about the horse’s behavior, and interesting to read how many options Emma was given afterwards.
Kudos to her “team” as well as condolences to all involved.[/QUOTE]
I think the trainers sharing so much helps to make something of a bad situation in terms of “the industry” (for lack of a better term) after a horrible accident. By giving that little more information on how they handled it, they’ve provided an excellent example of what to do if something awful DOES happen - and hopefully other trainers and adults in positions of responsibility will pick up on that and respond the similarly should they be unlucky enough to have something happen with a minor they are working with/parenting.
I mean, obviously everyone would rather it didn’t happen at all, but having happened, at least now you can refer people to that article and say ‘look, see how they handled it? That was a good approach.’ I think that does make a difference - maybe not even for professionals so much as people like parents who may not be horsey and so may not know enough to know if the way their child’s trainer does things is “just the way things are done” if they have a bad feeling, you know?
(I have to say, if I had a kid who was looking to ride at that kind of level, I would be quite happy with these adults being in a position of a lot of respect and responsibility. I really think they handled it in a way that recognized Emma is old enough to make some decisions, but young enough to need a lot of support in terms of knowing that it’s okay not to ride, or to go in and not try to win, or… Whatever she needed to be okay in her head, essentially, rather than feeling pressured to perform to someone else’s expectations.)
I wish for them all comfort and some measure of peace regarding everything. I’m sure everyone will be feeling the loss, but it doesn’t sound like anyone did anything wrong, and I hope they can all really believe that and feel it inside.
