Retaining a filly as a replacement broodmare

[Fred]

[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;6144960]
I also think as (serious) breeders this is something we all strive to do.[/QUOTE]

I agree with VB’s statement and most of the others’ posts as well.

Like some of the other long-term breeders I am now into my 3rd generation of homebreds. I also sold some fillies early on and am seeing them in other good breeders’ programs, and that is gratifying as well.

I kept the two older sisters of A Fine Romance.
They have/had (the oldest is now deceased and the second oldest is retired) beautiful conformation, excellent pedigrees, lovely temperaments and were athletes.
Both mares were bred to Holsteiners (except once to Iroko) and produced beautiful, athletes.
I have kept two of those daughters for my program, one by Cabaret, one by Landslide.

I have also kept one (so far) of my AFR daughters, out of one of my best mares,who is now retired.
She is a full TB, full sister to an Advanced eventer, winning GP jumper.
She has better conformation than her dam, an outstanding (and increasingly rare) sport TB pedigree, lovely temperament and is an outstanding athlete.

[RiverOaksFarm]

[QUOTE=JB;6145579]
Totally OT, but RiverOaks, I watched your video (gorgeous!!!) and then my finger slipped and I watched Fizzy Kitten. Way. Too Cute for her own good! :lol: :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]

Thanks I think my filly is going to be pretty special, and the Fizzy kitten video still makes me smile. (You can check out more Fizzy pics here, I bottle raised him and have pics from back when he was only about a week old.)

[JB]

http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/Fizzy_013.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bottle feeding them is so rewarding, did that with 2 week olds many years ago. Lovely, lovely boy, not at all camera shy is he LOL

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Perhaps the uterus comment was directed at me? I figured it was obvious that I considered the filly a replacement, because I veiwed her as an improvement on the dam, even though I didn’t say that…I guess I should have spelled that out. Yes, the filly has better confirmation and is a better mover than her dam. It was just nice that it worked out the way it did.

Also the dam is aged–since I was boarding at the time, once I bred the filly I was hoping for, I was happy to sell her mother to another breeder (who did, btw get her in-foal).

She is not just a “uterus” and will not be bred until she demonstrates suffecient ability under saddle (see my original post) and even then I may not breed her, as I also mentioned in my post, but if I do it will likely be ET so she can have a competition career, as my goals are changing.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;6146222]
Perhaps the uterus comment was directed at me? I figured it was obvious that I considered the filly a replacement, because I veiwed her as an improvement on the dam, even though I didn’t say that…I guess I should have spelled that out. Yes, the filly has better confirmation and is a better mover than her dam. It was just nice that it worked out the way it did.

Also the dam is aged–since I was boarding at the time, once I bred the filly I was hoping for, I was happy to sell her mother to another breeder (who did, btw get her in-foal).

She is not just a “uterus” and will not be bred until she demonstrates suffecient ability under saddle (see my original post) and even then I may not breed her, as I also mentioned in my post, but if I do it will likely be ET so she can have a competition career, as my goals are changing.[/QUOTE]

My comment was not directed at you TTP…it was just a general comment as I hear this over and over and not just on this particular thread.

Folks that get one filly and then get rid of the dam is just stupid to me. If folks wanted to get rid of the dam that easily she probably shouldn’t have been bred in the first place.

I would never get rid of my dam as she is a very good one to start with or I wouldn’t have been breeding with her. For me to keep a filly from her takes selection.

You want to know why we don’t breed better horses here ? It’s this very reason…selection.

It shouldn’t matter if it’s a Hickstead , Cassini , Darco or Riverman filly. If the Riverman was the best then this is the one that should be kept for breeding. Is it the best one ? Is it the best one ? Is it the best one ?

[RiverOaksFarm]

Every poster on this thread has given good thoughtful reasons why they’ve kept fillies to replace broodmares. “Because the filly is an improvement over the mare” and “to add the bloodlines of the sire” seem to be popular reasons. Not a single person has mentioned “replacement uterus” as a reason.

I agree.

I have also sold a mare to be able to keep her filly. In my case, I am fairly limited (in terms of both space and money) as to how many horses I can have at any one time, and I could not reasonably keep the mare AND her filly, so I made the decision to keep the filly and sell the mare. (And it was a very well thought out decision.)

You can’t really use a one-size-fits-all approach to judging other breeders, because everyone’s circumstances are different. For every breeder like myself, who is small and plans to stay that way, there is another breeder ‘retaining’ everything they breed because they think it’s breeding quality, when none of us would touch their stock with a ten foot pole. (And before anyone wonders, I’m talking generally, not about anyone on this thread smile!)

You have to be careful not to paint everyone with the same brush, whether it’s the breeder who sold a mare she maybe ‘should have’ kept, or the breeder who keeps whole herds of mares nobody should be breeding.

(And JB, I totally agree with you about bottle feeding kittens )

[RiverOaksFarm]

If folks wanted to get rid of the dam that easily she probably shouldn’t have been bred in the first place.

There is a difference between want, and necessity. Sometimes people do things because they need to, not because they want to, and that includes sometimes selling horses you’d rather keep.

[Home_Again_Farm]

I did not get rid of the dams. That would have been foolish. Instead I kept the very best daughters and built my mare herd. Emphasis on very best. :yes: Their production has proven my choices to be wise.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6146771]
I agree.

I have also sold a mare to be able to keep her filly. In my case, I am fairly limited (in terms of both space and money) as to how many horses I can have at any one time, and I could not reasonably keep the mare AND her filly, so I made the decision to keep the filly and sell the mare. (And it was a very well thought out decision.)

You can’t really use a one-size-fits-all approach to judging other breeders, because everyone’s circumstances are different. For every breeder like myself, who is small and plans to stay that way, there is another breeder ‘retaining’ everything they breed because they think it’s breeding quality, when none of us would touch their stock with a ten foot pole. (And before anyone wonders, I’m talking generally, not about anyone on this thread smile!)

You have to be careful not to paint everyone with the same brush, whether it’s the breeder who sold a mare she maybe ‘should have’ kept, or the breeder who keeps whole herds of mares nobody should be breeding.

(And JB, I totally agree with you about bottle feeding kittens )[/QUOTE]

Yes , everyone’s circumstances are different but if you only have room for one mare , then you aren’t a sporthorse breeder. You are a hobby breeder.

We need a sporthorse breeding forum and a hobby breeding forum.

[2tempe]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6146801]
Yes , everyone’s circumstances are different but if you only have room for one mare , then you aren’t a sporthorse breeder. You are a hobby breeder.

We need a sporthorse breeding forum and a hobby breeding forum.[/QUOTE]

ouch…

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6146801]
Yes , everyone’s circumstances are different but if you only have room for one mare , then you aren’t a sporthorse breeder. You are a hobby breeder.

We need a sporthorse breeding forum and a hobby breeding forum.[/QUOTE]

Dear God no! Not another forum! Your comment actually made me laugh.

Seriously though, I don’t think so. I know I’m a hobby breeder. A professional is someone who does soemthing for a living and/or to turn a profit. That said, I think you can find very high-end hobby breeders, and (dare I say it) really crappy professional or sporthorse breeders.

I know of a farm that breeds around 20 mares a year and you couldn’t pay me to take 80%+ of their mares. It’s actually quite a testament to their stallions that the offspring turn out as decent as they do. I imagine there are similar “sporthorse” breeders all over the country. Just because they make money due to volume and whatever their marketing deal may be, doesn’t mean that the mares are good (it’s amazing what a glossy website and marketing machine can do–particularly if you sell to a different area). I think a discussion of broodmare selection is pertinent to both types of breeders, both hobby and sporthorse.

[StoneLily]

Wow! Some gorgeous mares and babies! I am really enjoying the pictures and hearing the reasons behind your decisions. Can we please keep the thread on topic - not let it wander off to judging people for their decisions or putting them in a category. That is not the purpose for this thread - perhaps if you’d like to discuss something else, you could start a new thread?

Please keep them coming! Don’t forget pictures of mare and filly!

[MysticOakRanch]

Bayhawk, I don’t think anyone here is advocating keeping a filly just because it is a “uterus”. In most cases, it is because of desireable bloodlines, etc.

In response to OP’s question, we are considering keeping a filly from 2011. I’ve had three fillies from the dam, all have been wonderful horses, and several quality colts from her. All her babies that are under saddle have great minds, really fun to ride.

This past year, she provided us with another lovely filly (who was 3rd highest scoring AWS filly in the US), and I realized she’s getting up there in age (19), and I couldn’t afford to buy another mare of her breeding. This filly is fancy, and right now, I’m considering keeping her. I know it will be another 3 years before we can breed her, and am hoping her dam will still give us a few more foals - she’s healthy and hearty at this point.

Her dam was one of my first broodies, and she’s got a lifetime home with me, but I’d love to have a replacement to her of similar type. I think this filly might be it - figure I have a few years to decide… I’ll also admit, I’ve had fillies before that I thought I’d keep, then started them under saddle, and they were such great riding horses, I ended up letting them go…

But yes, I do think breeders eventually keep at least one or two of “their own” as future broodmares.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;6146899]
Bayhawk, I don’t think anyone here is advocating keeping a filly just because it is a “uterus”. In most cases, it is because of desireable bloodlines, etc.

In response to OP’s question, we are considering keeping a filly from 2011. I’ve had three fillies from the dam, all have been wonderful horses, and several quality colts from her. All her babies that are under saddle have great minds, really fun to ride.

This past year, she provided us with another lovely filly (who was 3rd highest scoring AWS filly in the US), and I realized she’s getting up there in age (19), and I couldn’t afford to buy another mare of her breeding. This filly is fancy, and right now, I’m considering keeping her. I know it will be another 3 years before we can breed her, and am hoping her dam will still give us a few more foals - she’s healthy and hearty at this point.

Her dam was one of my first broodies, and she’s got a lifetime home with me, but I’d love to have a replacement to her of similar type. I think this filly might be it - figure I have a few years to decide… I’ll also admit, I’ve had fillies before that I thought I’d keep, then started them under saddle, and they were such great riding horses, I ended up letting them go…

But yes, I do think breeders eventually keep at least one or two of “their own” as future broodmares.[/QUOTE]

Uh -huh and all the while you were compiling data on the original mare. You toss your data out when you sell the dam. You can’t effectively breed sporthorses if financial and space reasons dictate you to only have one mare.

How can any breeder in this country begin to gain any knowledge about the family they are breeding with when they throw out the family ? Hobby breeder…

[Kerole]

Before retaining a filly I always ask myself “Can I make another one like this?”

I have, as yet, only kept one. I retained a filly from a youngish mare to show and have fun with. The mare had one more colt before dying unexpectedly. The filly I kept has become a Champion ridden horse and broodmare, and has had 3 foals, all Champions too. I am soooo glad I kept that filly and have been scouring the country trying to track down the filly’s full sister to buy back.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Kerole;6146958]
Before retaining a filly I always ask myself “Can I make another one like this?”

I have, as yet, only kept one. I retained a filly from a youngish mare to show and have fun with. The mare had one more colt before dying unexpectedly. The filly I kept has become a Champion ridden horse and broodmare, and has had 3 foals, all Champions too. I am soooo glad I kept that filly and have been scouring the country trying to track down the filly’s full sister to buy back.[/QUOTE]

This too goes back to selection. I deal with full siblings all the time both here and in Europe. They can be similar in quality and then they can be worlds apart.

Sometimes you have a full sister with more characteristics from the sire and then the other has more from the dam. They both could be equally as good just different or you may have to cull one.

I have a mare with 4 States Premium mares in a row behind her. All of these mares have full sisters but they weren’t retained for breeding. Only the best sisters were kept. Now you have a line of mares with known quality.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6146801]
Yes , everyone’s circumstances are different but if you only have room for one mare , then you aren’t a sporthorse breeder. You are a hobby breeder.

We need a sporthorse breeding forum and a hobby breeding forum.[/QUOTE]

Ooof.

What does this mean, exactly? What is your definition of “sporthorse breeder”? “Hobby breeder”?

Do “hobby breeders” not produce sporthorses? Does it necessarily take more than 1 foal a year to be considered “in”? If someone has their own farm that’s only 5 acres and cannot sustain more than a few horses, 2 riding horses who are gelding, and a top quality broodmare who produces 1 foal a year, but those foals always end up in the “top whatever”, they are still a hobby breeder?

Is it really about numbers?

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6146927]
Uh -huh and all the while you were compiling data on the original mare. You toss your data out when you sell the dam. You can’t effectively breed sporthorses if financial and space reasons dictate you to only have one mare.

How can any breeder in this country begin to gain any knowledge about the family they are breeding with when they throw out the family ? Hobby breeder…[/QUOTE]

She’s not selling the dam, the dam is getting old. Did you even read the post? or are your mares immortal? Only hobby breeders’ mares need pensioned, real Holsteiner uteruses are forever!

[Donatella]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6145100]
Here is a very short video clip of her I took last week: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA4Z9NSepQc[/QUOTE]

I can see why you kept her!

The rest of this thread is getting sidetracked. Whose to say 1 foal equals hobby breeder, but some higher number equals a pro., and what about quality over quantity, or 1 nice foal v 10 mediocer ones. Really some of the insults here are silly. And because someone sells a mare and keeps the foal, why think she must only have one mare? I say we quit feeding the troll

Back on topic, I’ve always heard this refered to as generational breeding, ie its the goal of good breeding to breed each generation as an improvment on the one before, then you keep offspring, and move your breeding program forward.

[Donatella]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;6147098]
Only hobby breeders’ mares need pensioned, real Holsteiner uteruses are forever![/QUOTE]

ROFL :lol: Holsteiner uteruses never die, retire, or get sold! :lol: