Retaining a filly as a replacement broodmare

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Donatella;6147171]
ROFL :lol: Holsteiner uteruses never die, retire, or get sold! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Yes they do die , retire and get sold but we don’t throw them away after we get one filly.

Generational breeding isn’t just applied to one filly from the mother. It can be several daughters that are intended to generationally carry on the genetics. Again , thru selection.

and yes JB , if you have 5 acres , 2 geldings and 1 broodmare on those 5 acres , you are a hobby breeder. You can’t sustain enough numbers on that size farm to gain any real reproductive knowledge.

[pinecone]

For Pete’s sake Bayhawk. Nobody has said anything about throwing their mares away. Selling them or retiring them, yes, but not throwing them away. Are you simply looking for an argument?

You’ve criticized people here for taking bloodlines into account when keeping fillies (even when nearly everyone unanimously listed that as a reason.) You’ve criticized people here for selling or retiring their mares. You’ve criticized people for having small farms. You’ve criticized people for not having enough broodmares. Absurd, all of it. Who cares if JB has 5 acres, TTP has only one mare, ROF sold a broodmare, or MOR is thinking of retiring one. At this moment I’ve got more respect for the whole lot of them than I do for you.

Newsflash, more isn’t necessarily better. You can have fifty acres and twenty broodmares, and not have an ounce of real reproductive knowledge. Or you can have a small farm, a couple of broodmares, and a tonne of real reproductive knowledge. TTP and ROF already made this point rather well, or are you not reading their posts because one of them only has one mare, and the other one sold a broodmare? (Oh, the horrors.)

Donatella, your understanding of generational breeding is correct. Generational breeding should be a goal of every responsible breeder. (And it makes no difference if you keep only one filly from the mother, or ten of them.)

This place needs a hide feature. I can feel my blood pressure beginning to rise Time to go look at the kitten pic again!

[columbus]

I wish I could say the filly I kept is the best filly the mare could have but she was a varus foal who was septic and instead of spending the first weeks racing around and getting her soles flat on the ground she was in vet students laps and those first growth plates solidify so early you have very little time to correct it. So she has one still varus foot as a brood mare. She passed inspection with an explanation of circumstances but I won’t sell her. She very likely would hold up to at least moderate use but I would have to sell her for much less and would be concerned about the homes she might find herself in. Her foal was lovely and I am very happy with what she produced. She is being broke now and will continue on after she is in foal. The option for her is not to stand around because she can’t be fairly tested and not breed her…she is capable of being a quality broodmare. I find if I push my nose up too high I might end up with finger inserted. I will use her and choose stallions to improve her…so far I have guessed at her weaknesses and that was confirmed by the first filly’s quality. The mare has always been the ooo ahhh mare everyone thought so highly of and who I had to explain her faults…they would go…oh…and think I was being too critical. I don’t see this as a genetic fault but one of birth position and we will see if I am right. I am very glad she is not a warmblood and that I have more of a choice in dealing with issues I have and whether I can breed with that issue and produce successful foals for my market. Confident adult amateurs. PatO

[JB]

Nobody said they were selling their mares after 1 filly either.

If she had 10 foals, is still 14/15, still has broodmare years left, and this is a really nice filly, the 3rd one she’s produced, the nicest of all the colts and fillies, would it not be in a breeders good interest (not necessarily best, not getting into how many mares the breeder has) to think about selling the broodie to another breeding home and keeping the filly for the next generation?

Why should the breeder have to wait until the mare can’t have babies anymore, risk having no fillies from her, then have to search for a filly (and wait more years) or another broodmare to start up again?

[JB]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6147408]

and yes JB , if you have 5 acres , 2 geldings and 1 broodmare on those 5 acres , you are a hobby breeder. You can’t sustain enough numbers on that size farm to gain any real reproductive knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Who says all the knowledge has to come from a breeder’s particular operation? Isn’t that what books and records, as well as the cumulative knowledge of other breeders, is for? Why does a breeder have to exist in a vacuum, relying solely on that THEY have produced, when there is a huge amount of information on what lines produce what when crossed with what else?

The “sporthorse breeder” (in your definition) who now owns their own small farm and is limited to a couple of horses, who would REALLY like to ride again instead of solely breeding, who now has just one mare, is now relegated to the lowly “hobby breeder”?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=pinecone;6147488]
For Pete’s sake Bayhawk. Nobody has said anything about throwing their mares away. Selling them or retiring them, yes, but not throwing them away. Are you simply looking for an argument?

You’ve criticized people here for taking bloodlines into account when keeping fillies (even when nearly everyone unanimously listed that as a reason.) You’ve criticized people here for selling or retiring their mares. You’ve criticized people for having small farms. You’ve criticized people for not having enough broodmares. Absurd, all of it. Who cares if JB has 5 acres, TTP has only one mare, ROF sold a broodmare, or MOR is thinking of retiring one. At this moment I’ve got more respect for the whole lot of them than I do for you.

Newsflash, more isn’t necessarily better. You can have fifty acres and twenty broodmares, and not have an ounce of real reproductive knowledge. Or you can have a small farm, a couple of broodmares, and a tonne of real reproductive knowledge. TTP and ROF already made this point rather well, or are you not reading their posts because one of them only has one mare, and the other one sold a broodmare? (Oh, the horrors.)

Donatella, your understanding of generational breeding is correct. Generational breeding should be a goal of every responsible breeder. (And it makes no difference if you keep only one filly from the mother, or ten of them.)

This place needs a hide feature. I can feel my blood pressure beginning to rise Time to go look at the kitten pic again![/QUOTE]

I haven’t critized a single person. I’m simply responding to the “got my one filly now get rid of the mare mentality”.

I don’t give a crap who you respect or don’t pineknot…I was simply commenting on what I think to be ridiculous.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=JB;6147566]
Who says all the knowledge has to come from a breeder’s particular operation? Isn’t that what books and records, as well as the cumulative knowledge of other breeders, is for? Why does a breeder have to exist in a vacuum, relying solely on that THEY have produced, when there is a huge amount of information on what lines produce what when crossed with what else?

The “sporthorse breeder” (in your definition) who now owns their own small farm and is limited to a couple of horses, who would REALLY like to ride again instead of solely breeding, who now has just one mare, is now relegated to the lowly “hobby breeder”?[/QUOTE]

JB…there is nothing “lowly” about what I said. There is nothing wrong with being a hobby breeder if that’s what it takes for you but you can’t have any real reproductive knowledge with 2 geldings and one mare on 5 acres. It’s impossible because you’re already maxed out.

You can’t gain reproductive knowledge without a line of horses to gain it from JB.

[JB]

You’re missing my point bayhawk.

You yourself have said many, many times that the mare line is utterly important to the Holsteiners, and all the “good” breeders know what mare lines do what.

Is that knowledge just…gone because someone sells their mare who is getting too old (for their program) to reproduce? Poof, the breeder is down to the one mare/filly, and suddenly they are at square one with knowledge?

Because that’s what you’re implying happens when a breeders sells a mare and keeps her filly.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=JB;6147680]
You’re missing my point bayhawk.

You yourself have said many, many times that the mare line is utterly important to the Holsteiners, and all the “good” breeders know what mare lines do what.

Is that knowledge just…gone because someone sells their mare who is getting too old (for their program) to reproduce? Poof, the breeder is down to the one mare/filly, and suddenly they are at square one with knowledge?

Because that’s what you’re implying happens when a breeders sells a mare and keeps her filly.[/QUOTE]

No. We don’t let the mare get that old before we have selected some replacements. My gripe is in post #4 . “I got my filly and sold the dam”. It’s probably unfair of me to hone in on the one time it’s mentioned in this thread when I’ve actually heard it over and over on other threads and it’s really frustrating to me as I believe this to be one of the main reasons there are very few developing , powerful stamms in this country.

It does no good to ever sell the dam unless she shouldn’t have been bred in the first place. The second filly might be the best one and the one that should have really been kept for breeding but no…some breeders get the first filly and throw the mare out. I know that’s not what most are advocating on this thread but this does seem to be the general mentality of a majority of novice breeders. “Oh, I’ve got my filly from Cassini now, I can get rid of the mare”. WTF ? If she gave you a good filly from Cassini…maybe you ought to breed her back and you just might get a better one ?

I’ve had 9 foals (7 fillies) from one of my main mares (13 years old now) and I would never dream of selling her because she keeps providing me with enormous reproductive data THRU her daughters. SHE still is having massive influence on her grandchildren and I suspect , great grandchildren. Her service is invaluable to me. ALL her daughters are slightly better than she. When I breed her daughters, I am mindful of her as a very powerful grandmother. I wouldn’t have this info otherwise.

[HyperionStudLLC]

I would like to add my two cents here…

It has been said that any mare can’t be marked until her second foal or maybe even her third foal. We have had several fillies and several colts. All of which have been bred with the best intentions according to their pedigrees and/or performance of the mare and stallion. Who is to say what they will become? Breeding is a test of science, numbers, stamina and intention. All the best reasons to get into it, but I will always say that without a solid investment in the mare it doesn’t matter what stallion u use. This is the exact reason why we took our Cassini x Heraldik x Landgraf mare who is States Premuim and 5th SP in her mother line out of sport and into our breeding shed. We want to build a foundation based on substance which i know she will give to us as we proceed with her future. Now we take a gamble in breeding because the math says our odds are good, but we can never be 100% sure. Paired with the correct stallion we HOPE to have a superior result. That’s the game…

Now the argument between hobby breeder and other is a matter of opinion. Some could say we (Hyperion Stud) are hobby breeders simply by the few numbers of foals we have a year. Yet I am convinced that in this country , regardless of numbers, as long as you have direction, a clear understanding of supply vs demand, and you have a solid foundation we are then all breeders with the intent of improving our own stock and reputation as capable contributors to the industry world wide.

When we as breeders start to perceive each decision as a benefit to the whole, then we are all connected in a common purpose regardless of your circumstances. Make your choices wisely as you, the breeder, is the one making the decision to bring another horse into this world.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=HyperionStudLLC;6147857]
I would like to add my two cents here…

It has been said that any mare can’t be marked until her second foal or maybe even her third foal. We have had several fillies and several colts. All of which have been bred with the best intentions according to their pedigrees and/or performance of the mare and stallion. Who is to say what they will become? Breeding is a test of science, numbers, stamina and intention. All the best reasons to get into it, but I will always say that without a solid investment in the mare it doesn’t matter what stallion u use. This is the exact reason why we took our Cassini x Heraldik x Landgraf mare who is States Premuim and 5th SP in her mother line out of sport and into our breeding shed. We want to build a foundation based on substance which i know she will give to us as we proceed with her future. Now we take a gamble in breeding because the math says our odds are good, but we can never be 100% sure. Paired with the correct stallion we HOPE to have a superior result. That’s the game…

Now the argument between hobby breeder and other is a matter of opinion. Some could say we (Hyperion Stud) are hobby breeders simply by the few numbers of foals we have a year. Yet I am convinced that in this country , regardless of numbers, as long as you have direction, a clear understanding of supply vs demand, and you have a solid foundation we are then all breeders with the intent of improving our own stock and reputation as capable contributors to the industry world wide.

When we as breeders start to perceive each decision as a benefit to the whole, then we are all connected in a common purpose regardless of your circumstances. Make your choices wisely as you, the breeder, is the one making the decision to bring another horse into this world.[/QUOTE]

“When we as breeders start to perceive each decision as a benefit to the whole, then we are all connected in a common purpose regardless of your circumstances. Make your choices wisely as you, the breeder, is the one making the decision to bring another horse into this world.”

This is the point I’ve been failing miserably at trying to make. Thank you.

[MaggieF]

[QUOTE=HyperionStudLLC;6147857]

When we as breeders start to perceive each decision as a benefit to the whole, then we are all connected in a common purpose regardless of your circumstances. Make your choices wisely as you, the breeder, is the one making the decision to bring another horse into this world.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the most important things anyone has ever said here. Something we all need to think about long and hard.

Maggie

[JB]

@HyperionStudLLC;6147857

Now the argument between hobby breeder and other is a matter of opinion. Some could say we (Hyperion Stud) are hobby breeders simply by the few numbers of foals we have a year. Yet I am convinced that in this country , regardless of numbers, as long as you have direction, a clear understanding of supply vs demand, and you have a solid foundation we are then all breeders with the intent of improving our own stock and reputation as capable contributors to the industry world wide.

Yes, that is the whole point I was trying to make in rebuttal to bayhawk - “regardless of numbers”

[Diamontaire]

I guess I will be falling into hobby breeder status this year, as I only have one mare. And only WANT one mare. I have a gelding to ride, but he is 19 this year. Yes, my finances dictate I can only have one foal on the ground, but I will to the best of my ability try to produce a marketable animal- whether the resulting foal is sold or becomes my next forever horse.

In another lifetime, and a different breed/discipline, I was very successful at putting national champions in the ring. Now I want to produce a lovely dressage horse for me. Mare is not in foal yet as I have spent two years trying to find what will be the best cross for her (Diamont and TB mare). If the foals are colts, yes, they will very likely become sales prospects, but nice ones! if I’m lucky enough to get a nice filly, she will be broodmare evaluated, but not until under saddle.

(stands up and raises hand) Hello, my name is T, and I am a hobby breeder…

[RiverOaksFarm]

The mare I sold was not my only mare, and the filly I kept was not her first/only foal, nor was she the first/only filly I’ve produced. (And I’m glad people here like her – I do too :)) I’m glad you all (with one outspoken exception, lol) seem to understand where I’m coming from…

I agree with the posters here who keep pointing out “it’s not about the numbers”. HyperionStud said it especially well – I enjoyed your post.

I also agree with JB – it’s silly to think because a mare is sold, all of your knowledge of her and her influence is lost. And I agree with pinecone about generational breeding. The point isn’t how many fillies you keep, it’s that each filly you keep is moving your breeding program forward.

Anyhow, what started as a fun, positive thread has taken enough strange and sometimes nasty turns it may be time to jump ship, lol…

(StoneLily, welcome to COTH I’m sorry your first thread got derailed so terribly, COTH isn’t always like this… (welcome also Diamontaire :))

[Home_Again_Farm]

@Bayhawk;6147787

I’ve had 9 foals (7 fillies) from one of my main mares (13 years old now) and I would never dream of selling her because she keeps providing me with enormous reproductive data THRU her daughters. SHE still is having massive influence on her grandchildren and I suspect , great grandchildren. Her service is invaluable to me. ALL her daughters are slightly better than she. When I breed her daughters, I am mindful of her as a very powerful grandmother. I wouldn’t have this info otherwise.

I have two mares that have given me similar results. Both have had many foals - one 9, the other 8. Even more interesting, both had mainly fillies over the years. It is those mares whose daughters I have kept (not all of the daughters, but those I felt had everything I wanted). I agree 100% that such mares give a breeder a tremendous amount of information which can be applied to breeding choices for them, their daughters and grand daughters.

However, I am not unusual in that respect. I know quite a few breeders who have done the same - retained daughters from valuable mares over years. That is a traditional way to approach breeding.

I did not get from this thread that anyone was advocating getting one filly and tossing the dam. If one person posted something like that, so what? The thread’s main thrust is that it is good to develop a line of mares from a wonderful starter mare. Some can only keep one daughter, some keep more. Numbers don’t spell success or failure. Most breeders in Germany only own a few mares - usually less than 4 if I am remembering right. What matters is intelligently assessing each and every breeding decision and applying what one learns to the next.

The OP wanted examples of fillies that were retained and wanted to hear how much training they were given, how they produced, etc. IMO all those questions are perfectly reasonable. :yes:

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6148277]
The mare I sold was not my only mare, and the filly I kept was not her first/only foal, nor was she the first/only filly I’ve produced. (And I’m glad people here like her – I do too :)) I’m glad you all (with one outspoken exception, lol) seem to understand where I’m coming from…

I agree with the posters here who keep pointing out “it’s not about the numbers”. HyperionStud said it especially well – I enjoyed your post.

I also agree with JB – it’s silly to think because a mare is sold, all of your knowledge of her and her influence is lost. And I agree with pinecone about generational breeding. The point isn’t how many fillies you keep, it’s that each filly you keep is moving your breeding program forward.

Anyhow, what started as a fun, positive thread has taken enough strange and sometimes nasty turns it may be time to jump ship, lol…

(StoneLily, welcome to COTH I’m sorry your first thread got derailed so terribly, COTH isn’t always like this… (welcome also Diamontaire :))[/QUOTE]

My point was that much of your info IS lost when you sell the mare after only one filly. Maybe it’s not so much lost as it’s never really acquired when you only get one filly and then stop breeding with the mare.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6148491]
My point was that much of your info IS lost when you sell the mare after only one filly. Maybe it’s not so much lost as it’s never really acquired when you only get one filly and then stop breeding with the mare.[/QUOTE]

I understand the point you are making. Personally, and I know you aren’t picking on me (even if someone did, I have pretty thick skin ;)) I was not looking to buy a broodmare when I found my first one, she sort of found me. As a boarder at that time, I was not in a good position to breed the dam again, and due to her advanced age thought the best choice was to sell her to another breeder and keep the filly (which was her second foal, I had also observed her first when she was owned elsewhere, and it is interesting to compare the two offsping).

That said, I completely see the value of keeping a mare, and studying marelines and offspring production. I think this is one of the most attractive aspects of the Holsteiner methodology. Of course, I also see the value in culling a mare from a program and using her daughter(s) or siblings (os something else entirely) if that is the best move. One thing we haven’t talked about here is culling. I know Bayhawk is frustrated with the lack of history we have about our marelines in this country, but I think I see even more people who view their mares with rose-colored glasses (not directed towards present company). I would be interested in hearing everyone’s perspective on culling as well (beyone the obvious answers)–but perhaps that is a spin off thread?

One of the things I’m struggling with with regards to my long yearling is if I should start her under saddle (at 3) and breed her at 3 (either directly or ET) to get some idea of what she produces before she goes to a pro at 4, or if I focus on competition and do ET. I only have the skill to develop her so far, and particularly in the jumping department will need to send her to a pro. However, let’s say she progresses as I hope under saddle. Even so, just becuase a horse ends up doing well in sport does not always means it produces this trait in its offspring. How do other breeders balance this? [Assumption being I decide to pursue breeding again–as a hobby ;)]

As I said before, I am currently planning on competition first and possibly doing ETs, but sometimes I think about this other avenue…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;6148619]
I understand the point you are making. Personally, and I know you aren’t picking on me (even if someone did, I have pretty thick skin ;)) I was not looking to buy a broodmare when I found my first one, she sort of found me. As a boarder at that time, I was not in a good position to breed the dam again, and due to her advanced age thought the best choice was to sell her to another breeder and keep the filly (which was her second foal, I had also observed her first when she was owned elsewhere, and it is interesting to compare the two offsping).

That said, I completely see the value of keeping a mare, and studying marelines and offspring production. I think this is one of the most attractive aspects of the Holsteiner methodology. Of course, I also see the value in culling a mare from a program and using her daughter(s) or siblings (os something else entirely) if that is the best move. One thing we haven’t talked about here is culling. I know Bayhawk is frustrated with the lack of history we have about our marelines in this country, but I think I see even more people who view their mares with rose-colored glasses (not directed towards present company). I would be interested in hearing everyone’s perspective on culling as well (beyone the obvious answers)–but perhaps that is a spin off thread?

One of the things I’m struggling with with regards to my long yearling is if I should start her under saddle (at 3) and breed her at 3 (either directly or ET) to get some idea of what she produces before she goes to a pro at 4, or if I focus on competition and do ET. I only have the skill to develop her so far, and particularly in the jumping department will need to send her to a pro. However, let’s say she progresses as I hope under saddle. Even so, just becuase a horse ends up doing well in sport does not always means it produces this trait in its offspring. How do other breeders balance this? [Assumption being I decide to pursue breeding again–as a hobby ;)]

As I said before, I am currently planning on competition first and possibly doing ETs, but sometimes I think about this other avenue…[/QUOTE]

No , I wasn’t picking on you or anyone in particular for that matter. I was picking on the concept from some though. We will never gain enough knowledge until we have mothers , grandmothers and great grandmothers standing around.

The answers to some of your questions are in my last statement. When you have generations of mares standing it makes selection of the next generation fillies much easier. When you know your family , you don’t necessarily need to put them thru sport to know what you have. Alot of this can be done at home , free jumping , riding the mare yourself , recognizing whats coming thru the line etc.

I guess I don’t really understand the “starter mare” concept as I’ve never really done this. Most all the mares I’ve started with have been very good and from very good motherlines. Having said that , I have culled a few over the years that were very good individuals themselves but just didn’t seem to inherit the reproductive prowess. Sometimes in these fabulous motherlines , a generation will skip…you have to be standing ready to cull that mare. You can really only accurately determine this if you are intimate with the motherline.

I breed from only 2 families now. I have all the same family here and 1 family in Holstein. By dealing with these same families and knowing them intimately , my reproductive quality has improved exponentially over the last years.

[Equilibrium]

Hyperion, that was a beautiful, thoughtful, and informative post. I was commenting on another post today on another board. It was about a foal who was born 3 months late, yes that’s right. He was born but very small but he did everything right. Still he was put down as he wasn’t viable. The girl who did the foaling said these decisions need to be made and that it doesn’t really bother her anymore. Now I get in breeding these decisions but at the same time when it doesn’t bother me anymore I would stop breeding. Because at the end of the day no matter what the breeding it is a living breathing creature we are putting here. That’s how I will always feel. The second I forget that it’s time to hang up my foal halters.

And yes I’ve retained a mare to breed from Stella. Yeah I won’t go into all the boring details as we all know Abba by now. But my breeding from her is dependent on Abba’s performance in the jumping ring so I can’t say as of yet that I will be breeding from her. Time will tell.

Terri