Retaining a filly as a replacement broodmare

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;6148619]

One of the things I’m struggling with with regards to my long yearling is if I should start her under saddle (at 3) and breed her at 3 (either directly or ET) to get some idea of what she produces before she goes to a pro at 4, or if I focus on competition and do ET. I only have the skill to develop her so far, and particularly in the jumping department will need to send her to a pro. However, let’s say she progresses as I hope under saddle. Even so, just becuase a horse ends up doing well in sport does not always means it produces this trait in its offspring. How do other breeders balance this? [Assumption being I decide to pursue breeding again–as a hobby ;)[/QUOTE]

We breed for competition and never thought of it as an either/or situation. If we think a filly is the whole package, she is bred at 3. Then she goes into training. It doesn’t take long for a competent pro to get a talented 4-5 year old to the ring. We do jumpers and honestly, how much are you going to do with a 3-4 year old? Wait a year and they can move right along.

We don’t do ET, but can understand it for a mare currently competing, IMHO it doesn’t make economic sense for a 3 yo who doesn’t need to be doing much anyway. As always YMMV

[JB]

I didn’t take any comment about or reference to 'starter mare" being some generic mare from an unknown pedigree, rather, as in reference to a given person’s “starting mare”.

The older proven broodmares who are sold, because a breeder has a replacement filly or has changed breeding directions, can often make quite nice, affordable “starter mares” for the newbie breeder.

[EquusMagnificus]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6148750]
We will never gain enough knowledge until we have mothers , grandmothers and great grandmothers standing around.[/QUOTE]

I had always heard and read this, yet I didn’t really “get” it until I had my TB mare in 2010.

She arrived in foal, gave me a filly whom I kept. Bred in 2010, foaled in 2011, gave me another filly whom I also kept. She is back in foal for 2012; that is her 7th foal.

While my sample is limited; it is such a learning experience to see these two fillies grow up, alongside their dam!

I can clearly tell what comes from which side of the family. Their ressemblances and their differences are subtle, yet they will make a big difference in their career choices.

I can see how owning mares of the same family, how knowning each mare personnally is an enormous advantage for the breeder.

As far as keeping a filly as a replacement broodmare; so far, I have two fillies I am extremely pleased with from this mare. By having two fillies side by side, I can EASILY tell which one is the better one, and if my mare gives me a third one in a row, I’ll be pleased to have the chance to observe the differences again.

I can already tell that one most likely will go into sport, the other would go in the breeding shed… I’m not sure yet. I might put both into sport simply because I’ll want something to ride and they are both irresistible! :winkgrin:

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6148869]
I had always heard and read this, yet I didn’t really “get” it until I had my TB mare in 2010.

She arrived in foal, gave me a filly whom I kept. Bred in 2010, foaled in 2011, gave me another filly whom I also kept. She is back in foal for 2012; that is her 7th foal.

While my sample is limited; it is such a learning experience to see these two fillies grow up, alongside their dam!

I can clearly tell what comes from which side of the family. Their ressemblances and their differences are subtle, yet they will make a big difference in their career choices.

I can see how owning mares of the same family, how knowning each mare personnally is an enormous advantage for the breeder.

As far as keeping a filly as a replacement broodmare; so far, I have two fillies I am extremely pleased with from this mare. By having two fillies side by side, I can EASILY tell which one is the better one, and if my mare gives me a third one in a row, I’ll be pleased to have the chance to observe the differences again.

I can already tell that one most likely will go into sport, the other would go in the breeding shed… I’m not sure yet. I might put both into sport simply because I’ll want something to ride and they are both irresistible! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

THIS ! Knowledge of family is power. It also affords you the knowledge of what not to do. I find it easier every year of understanding what not to do.

When you know how your motherline produces and you have a good idea how the stallion produces , it makes it much easier to remove stallions from the list and the resulting foals are usually much better.

[Hiddenacresmi]

Yes, I breed for and I hold back filllies. For that matter the four mares I have on the farm are all related.

I had one foundation mare, an Elite Rosentau mare I imported. She gave me two fillies so far: 1. Elite His Highness mare and 2. Elite Don Frederico mare. I loved the His Highness mare so much I purchased another His Highness filly back then (sight unseen!). So she is 1/2 sister to my other His Highness mare.

I continue to breed for my next broodmares. I find it easier to work with my own stock knowing what they need improvement on and what they produce. I strive for second and third generation success. It is also easier to add another to the herd from your own stock then hope what you are buying is the right temperment, rideability, etc. Anyway that’s my plan. My “girls” can be seen at http://www.HiddenAcresFarm.Net. Yes… I am a mother of all boys and only got my pink with four legs;)

I am already excited about next year’s breedings. With the right “dad’s” in the tank I have high hopes for some stellar mares for my future. And… maybe I’ll have the chance to keep a colt back sometime soon for my future gelding that I will show. God willing!:yes:

Hey remember that rider in the last olmpics that was in his 70’s. He started riding dressage when he retired at age 62… Gee maybe then I would have the time!!

[pinecone]

I know quite a few breeders who have done the same - retained daughters from valuable mares over years. That is a traditional way to approach breeding.

Yes yes yes.

the best choice was to sell her to another breeder and keep the filly

This issue of selling mares has taken on a life of its own. There is no shame in selling a mare! (I probably shouldn’t single out this quote but it seems like people are feeling as if they should be apologetic or owe us an explanation for selling a mare, and that’s craziness, the whole idea that selling a mare is bad or requires an explanation is craziness.)

proven broodmares who are sold, because a breeder has a replacement filly or has changed breeding directions, can often make quite nice, affordable “starter mares” for the newbie breeder.

Yes.

Of course, I also see the value in culling a mare from a program and using her daughter(s) or siblings (os something else entirely) if that is the best move. One thing we haven’t talked about here is culling. I know Bayhawk is frustrated with the lack of history we have about our marelines in this country, but I think I see even more people who view their mares with rose-colored glasses (not directed towards present company). I would be interested in hearing everyone’s perspective on culling as well (beyone the obvious answers)–but perhaps that is a spin off thread?

This. I’d also add, culling is often misunderstood, there are people who assume culls are throwaways. One person’s cull may be the nicest mare in another person’s broodmare band! A nice mare is a nice mare, her quality doesn’t change because she is sold (or culled.)

Your statement about rose colored glasses also bears repeating. In some ways I’d be more skeptical of a breeder who never sells a mare, than a breeder who admits to selling some mares in order to keep other nicer ones.

Again, I can’t emphasize enough, this idea that “selling mare is bad” or “any mare you’d sell isn’t worthy of breeding” is nonsense. To play the devil’s advocate, you could turn the whole concept around and say that breeders who never sell a mare are barn blind hoarders. (Of course we know this is also nonsense, but seeing it in print helps to make the point of how absurd it is to make sweeping assessments either way based on how many mares a breeder keeps or sells!)

Some can only keep one daughter, some keep more. Numbers don’t spell success or failure. Most breeders in Germany only own a few mares - usually less than 4 if I am remembering right. What matters is intelligently assessing each and every breeding decision and applying what one learns to the next.

Yes.

[grayarabpony]

It’s not necessary to have grandmothers, mothers and daughters standing around, especially if the breeders rode those horses and have a good working memory, or heck even vids if memory fails.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6150139]
It’s not necessary to have grandmothers, mothers and daughters standing around, especially if the breeders rode those horses and have a good working memory, or heck even vids if memory fails. ;)[/QUOTE]

This statement is an example of THE problem in this country.

First, it comes from someone who is not a breeder ,has had probably only one foal ever, has basically no experience in the show ring and has never had a generations of mares standing around.

Secondly, you can’t gain enough reproductive knowledge from simply riding the mares… they need to reproduce. This is where the majority of the knowledge comes from. You use the riding knowledge to select a stallion to compliment the mares weaknesses.

And lastly , breeding from “videos if memory fails” ? I won’t waste any time even attempting to address this.

[grayarabpony]

Bayhawk you like to write inaccuracies about other people. It’s not an admirable trait. You also like to make many many inaccurate ass-umptions. Nor can you recognize sarcasm apparently. :lol: (We all have problems with both making assumptions and recognizing sarcasm from time to time, but you REALLY seem to have a problem with both of those things.) Nope I’m not a breeder. So what. I do however have experience in the show ring as an amateur rider and know what makes a good and talented riding horse, which is, after all, the whole point of sporthorse breeding. Nor have I “probably” bred one horse ever. I bred my mare, got a foal, and lost my mare in the process. (The mare’s death was not my fault, I might add.)

I get a little sick and tired of you saying I have no experience with horses or knowledge of breeding since it’s not true. Not that you have a problem blabbing about stuff that’s not true.

A breeder doesn’t have to keep a broodmare forever, especially if she produces horses better in some ways than herself. Why keep breeding and breeding that mare if her daughter is a better horse? There may be no reason to do so, and that mare may be perfect for someone else. Why is that so hard for you to understand? By all means keep the mare if she 's retired or a favorite or good babysitter or good riding horse, but if she goes to a good home it’s not a crime to sell her.

Some of the stuff you say about both horses and genetics just makes me roll my eyes. You don’t have nearly as much experience or knowledge as you think you do, and you don’t seem to understand WHY the Holsteiner breeders do what they do.

I feel sorry for you to be honest.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6150349]
Bayhawk you like to write inaccuriaces about other people. It’s not an admirable trait. You also like to make many many inaccurate ass-umptions. Nor can you recognize sarcasm apparently. :lol: (We all have problems with both making assumptions and recognizing sarcasm from time to time, but you REALLY seem to have a problem with both of these things.) Nope I’m not a breeder. So what. I do however have experience in the show ring as an amateur rider and know what makes a good and talented riding horse, which is, after all, the whole point of sporthorse breeding.

I get a little sick and tired of you saying I have no experience with horses or knowledge of breeding since it’s not true. Not that you have a problem blabbing about stuff that’s not true.

Some of the stuff you say about both horses and genetics just makes me roll my eyes. You don’t have nearly as much experience or knowledge as you think you do, and you don’t seem to understand WHY the Holsteiner breeders do what they do.

I feel sorry for you to be honest.[/QUOTE]

Why must you come muddy the water EVERY single time there is a good educational thread developing ? Why must you make it a trainwreck every single time ?

You are not a breeder , your performance record has been searched here several times which always reveals no experience whatsoever. You have ZERO breeding knowledge yet you continue to come on here saying things like “you don’t need generations of mares standing around”. How would you know ?

What gets me is you never, ever show any attempt at trying to learn anything or be a positive contributor to a particular discussion. Why ?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion GAP but those opinions are always without direct knowledge and experience to back them up.

[grayarabpony]

What’s that bayhawk?

Ah the ignore button is a lovely thing.

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6146289]
Folks that get one filly and then get rid of the dam is just stupid to me. If folks wanted to get rid of the dam that easily she probably shouldn’t have been bred in the first place.

I would never get rid of my dam as she is a very good one to start with or I wouldn’t have been breeding with her. For me to keep a filly from her takes selection.

You want to know why we don’t breed better horses here ? It’s this very reason…selection.

It shouldn’t matter if it’s a Hickstead , Cassini , Darco or Riverman filly. If the Riverman was the best then this is the one that should be kept for breeding. Is it the best one ? Is it the best one ? Is it the best one ?[/QUOTE]

I quite agree with this statement and it is sage advice, coming from experience, and well worthy of taking heed to.

Save your pennies and buy the very best mare you can get - there are scads of good bloodlines out there, in whatever breed you are interested in, but the premium mares of each bloodline are fewer and farther between, so look for premium mares who have earned those accolades by their scores and foal production.

When you are blessed with a filly, be willing to be super critical of her. Is she mom’s quality or better? If so, she may be a keeper. If she disappoints in some area that doesn’t line up with YOUR particular breeding direction or goals, then sell her. But your mare stock is your most valuable asset and moms and her daughters are to breeders like gold bricks to jewelers. The mares have fewer opportunities to produce “gold” so they have greater pressure to produce it right away. Stallions can produce hundreds of foals, even thousands, but your precious mare can sometimes only produce between 1 to 12 or so foals. Her quality of production needs to be stellar right from the get-go, therefore she costs the breeder MORE in terms of higher stakes! So, stack the odds in your favor and use only the brightest and best. Selection.

A breeder, unless dire circumstances dictate otherwise, really cannot AFFORD to sell mom when they get a replacement filly. You are offered a much greater depth by keeping mom and her very best fillies. This is how you build your mare herd. And another point to consider is both mom and daughter will bring different things to the breeding table, because they are 2 different horses, even if the younger is a descendant from the first. The Mom will continue to produce her quality and type as she has proven in the past, and the daughter offers a different perspective of the depth in your program. They will most likely pair with different types of stallions!

It goes without saying, your quality of mare brings a considerable something to the foal. It’s harder to make improvements via the stallion. It’s better to take advantage of someone else’s years of breeding work and obtain your Premium mare and then breed her to the best stallion she matches with… rather than taking a medium mare and, quite literally clawing your way up the quality scale using stallions because that takes several generations to do. It could be 3 or more generations out before you finally get a premium. Can you seriously wait that long to get top quality? So, save your pennies and don’t buy those medium mares - they shine in the show ring. For breeding purposes, it’s really and truly worth it to save up and start with 1 premium mare, rather than 2 medium ones.

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6147787]

I’ve had 9 foals (7 fillies) from one of my main mares (13 years old now) and I would never dream of selling her because she keeps providing me with enormous reproductive data THRU her daughters. SHE still is having massive influence on her grandchildren and I suspect , great grandchildren. Her service is invaluable to me. ALL her daughters are slightly better than she. When I breed her daughters, I am mindful of her as a very powerful grandmother. I wouldn’t have this info otherwise.[/QUOTE]

The part I bolded is what I would like to comment on.

Something I learned while working at a large European breeding farm - All mares have an influence on their foals. Right, we know that. But when her filly grew up and had her own filly, you can still see the influence the grandmare had in the newest foal. When that next filly grew up and had her own foal, even still you could see the influence of the greatgranddam in that foal. You can stand all 4 generations of mares together, side by side, and see strong familial traits. The mares, essentially, teach us lessons on breeding directions.

The influence and the lesson gained from that is quite impressive and an invaluable tool.

My oldest mare is now 22 years old. I obtained her from a family friend, a long-time breeder, retiring, (and in fact I witnessed the insemination that produced the old mare I now have). I had had the opportunities to handle the mom, and rode and handled most of her offspring. She produced 3 approved stallions and 6 premium mares. MY mare was this great mare’s last foal. When I bred my mare, she was of completely different type to her mom, but the resulting foal was easily a mix of both grandma and mom, with some of the stallion there. Actually, I saw more of Granddam in that resulting foal than anyone else. Her powerful familial traits strongly came through.

If you’re blessed enough to have the opportunity to stick with your breeding program long enough to see generational effects, you really and truly understand what Bayhawk is trying to say - - you can see the influences and learn from it. You learn what stallion lines just do NOT go with that mare family because there are certain female familial traits that are powerful - i.e. they keep coming forward. You can’t know this unless you have generations to work with. Stand your mom and her daughters and granddaughters together and take photographs and then study the photos. You can learn things from that photo that could not be learned anywhere else, certainly not in any book.

[3Dogs]

I bred a wonderful mare I had after looong research to a stallion I thought would improve the mare. I got a filly who was an improvement. Foundation mare went to another home …long story…but I decided not to breed the daughter till I really knew what I had! She proved herself and is now due in a month! I also got a TB mare with beautiful conformation and a terrific pedigree…bred her to the same stallion. We shall see…both maidens!

Interesting discussion…!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=rodawn;6150511]
You learn what stallion lines just do NOT go with that mare family because there are certain female familial traits that are powerful - i.e. they keep coming forward. [/QUOTE]

I would hope you’d learn that lesson after one breeding with a particular mare, maybe two.

If I liked a mare enough to breed her – as with my TB mare – I wouldn’t sell her no matter how good her daughters were. However, and this is jmo, I find it offensive when a breeder calls someone else stupid for doing so. There are after all many roads to the same goal of a fine horse, and many different circumstances people have to deal with.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6150537]
I would hope you’d learn that lesson after one breeding with a particular mare, maybe two.

If I liked a mare enough to breed her – as with my TB mare – I wouldn’t sell her no matter how good her daughters were. However, and this is jmo, I find it offensive when a breeder calls someone else stupid for doing so. There are after all many roads to the same goal of a fine horse, and many different circumstances people have to deal with.[/QUOTE]

Here you go again…nobody called anybody stupid. I said I thought the general concept was “stupid” in terms of gaining family knowledge when folks were getting a filly and selling the mother. Bad choice of words on my part. Sometimes circumstances dictate that…it is a fact.

You ever thought about asking questions instead of making broad sweeping statements GAP ? Seeing as you obviously have next to no equine experience , wouldn’t you like to learn something from the very knowledgeable folks who take their time to post here ?

And FYI…you learn next to nothing with one breeding to a particular mare.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=rodawn;6150511]
The part I bolded is what I would like to comment on.

Something I learned while working at a large European breeding farm - All mares have an influence on their foals. Right, we know that. But when her filly grew up and had her own filly, you can still see the influence the grandmare had in the newest foal. When that next filly grew up and had her own foal, even still you could see the influence of the greatgranddam in that foal. You can stand all 4 generations of mares together, side by side, and see strong familial traits. The mares, essentially, teach us lessons on breeding directions.

The influence and the lesson gained from that is quite impressive and an invaluable tool.

My oldest mare is now 22 years old. I obtained her from a family friend, a long-time breeder, retiring, (and in fact I witnessed the insemination that produced the old mare I now have). I had had the opportunities to handle the mom, and rode and handled most of her offspring. She produced 3 approved stallions and 6 premium mares. MY mare was this great mare’s last foal. When I bred my mare, she was of completely different type to her mom, but the resulting foal was easily a mix of both grandma and mom, with some of the stallion there. Actually, I saw more of Granddam in that resulting foal than anyone else. Her powerful familial traits strongly came through.

If you’re blessed enough to have the opportunity to stick with your breeding program long enough to see generational effects, you really and truly understand what Bayhawk is trying to say - - you can see the influences and learn from it. You learn what stallion lines just do NOT go with that mare family because there are certain female familial traits that are powerful - i.e. they keep coming forward. You can’t know this unless you have generations to work with. Stand your mom and her daughters and granddaughters together and take photographs and then study the photos. You can learn things from that photo that could not be learned anywhere else, certainly not in any book.[/QUOTE]

THIS ! I had a client here the other day that had never seen an actual family of the same horses together.

I’ve got mother , daughters , sons and grandsons here. They were quite astonished that grandmother had so much influence on the entire herd. You can look at every horse on the farm and easily see they all came from one mare.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Just a few days ago I posted this to some breeders who were in a friendly discussion regarding prepotency. It reinforces what has been said here about how useful it is to keep a line or two of mares and be able to compare generations. I envy breeders who have been at it a lot longer than I, as they have even more information under their belts, so to speak.

I have a couple of mares that are really very prepotent and that have given me may offspring, and then some grandkids. You can go into a field with a bunch of foals, yearlings, 2 year olds, and pretty quickly see a similarity in appearance, balance, movement and type and I will tell you that those all came from two mares, who are a mother and daughter. I have a couple of other mares that are almost as reliable, but still sometimes surprise me. The longer I have those mares and apply what I learned from the surprises, the more reliable they have become, too. Breeding is so very fascinating. Always learning, no matter how long one plays.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;6150685]
Just a few days ago I posted this to some breeders who were in a friendly discussion regarding prepotency. It reinforces what has been said here about how useful it is to keep a line or two of mares and be able to compare generations. I envy breeders who have been at it a lot longer than I, as they have even more information under their belts, so to speak.

I have a couple of mares that are really very prepotent and that have given me may offspring, and then some grandkids. You can go into a field with a bunch of foals, yearlings, 2 year olds, and pretty quickly see a similarity in appearance, balance, movement and type and I will tell you that those all came from two mares, who are a mother and daughter. I have a couple of other mares that are almost as reliable, but still sometimes surprise me. The longer I have those mares and apply what I learned from the surprises, the more reliable they have become, too. Breeding is so very fascinating. Always learning, no matter how long one plays.[/QUOTE]

Very true Mary Lou. Breeding is a crap shoot but you can make it into somewhat of an educated crap shoot if you just simply know the family. Breeding is in large part gut instinct , but where does some of that gut instinct come from ? Knowledge of the two families in question.

One of the most important lessons I’ve learned from the Germans in the last two decades is knowing what not to do. Sometimes this is more important than knowing what to do.

I bought a week old colt this year from my good friends in Holstein. I know their stamm (family) intimately. I saw his mother and grandmother in him very profoundly. He turned out to be the best colt born in Holstein 3 months later. Did I know he was that good and better than all the rest at a week old ? No…and neither did the breeder but we knew he was very , very good because we know the family.

[RiverOaksFarm]

It’s not necessary to have grandmothers, mothers and daughters standing around, especially if the breeders rode those horses and have a good working memory, or heck even vids if memory fails.

I interpreted this more figuratively than literally… I think the point is that your memory and knowledge of a mare doesn’t poof the minute the mare is out of your sight. Like with the mare I sold – I’d had her for 8 years (and I run my own farm, so I saw this mare a minimum of 2x/day every day of those 8 years), she’d produced 5 foals for me, including 2 others by the same sire as my filly, and I was familiar with her sire (the highest ranked Friesian on the USEF’s Leading Dressage Sires list for 2007, fwiw), and I’d started another mare with similar breeding and by the same sire, and I had another dressage horse also with similar breeding and by the same sire, who I showed thru Fourth Level dressage as a 7YO. This amounts to alot of knowledge – which will forever be a ‘part’ of me as a breeder, even though this particular mare was sold.