Retaining a filly as a replacement broodmare

[quote]I know quite a few breeders who have done the same - retained daughters from valuable mares over years. That is a traditional way to approach breeding.

Yes yes yes.

the best choice was to sell her to another breeder and keep the filly

This issue of selling mares has taken on a life of its own. There is no shame in selling a mare! (I probably shouldn’t single out this quote but it seems like people are feeling as if they should be apologetic or owe us an explanation for selling a mare, and that’s craziness, the whole idea that selling a mare is bad or requires an explanation is craziness.)

proven broodmares who are sold, because a breeder has a replacement filly or has changed breeding directions, can often make quite nice, affordable “starter mares” for the newbie breeder.

Yes.

Of course, I also see the value in culling a mare from a program and using her daughter(s) or siblings (os something else entirely) if that is the best move. One thing we haven’t talked about here is culling. I know Bayhawk is frustrated with the lack of history we have about our marelines in this country, but I think I see even more people who view their mares with rose-colored glasses (not directed towards present company). I would be interested in hearing everyone’s perspective on culling as well (beyone the obvious answers)–but perhaps that is a spin off thread?

This. I’d also add, culling is often misunderstood, there are people who assume culls are throwaways. One person’s cull may be the nicest mare in another person’s broodmare band! A nice mare is a nice mare, her quality doesn’t change because she is sold (or culled.)

Your statement about rose colored glasses also bears repeating. In some ways I’d be more skeptical of a breeder who never sells a mare, than a breeder who admits to selling some mares in order to keep other nicer ones.

Again, I can’t emphasize enough, this idea that “selling mare is bad” or “any mare you’d sell isn’t worthy of breeding” is nonsense. To play the devil’s advocate, you could turn the whole concept around and say that breeders who never sell a mare are barn blind hoarders. (Of course we know this is also nonsense, but seeing it in print helps to make the point of how absurd it is to make sweeping assessments either way based on how many mares a breeder keeps or sells!)

Some can only keep one daughter, some keep more. Numbers don’t spell success or failure. Most breeders in Germany only own a few mares - usually less than 4 if I am remembering right. What matters is intelligently assessing each and every breeding decision and applying what one learns to the next.

Yes.
[/quote]

I think this summarizes things nicely.
:slight_smile:

Bayhawk! What wonderful news! Lucky you getting to follow Stamms etc. for those of us whose chose to breed “hunters” however, ascertaining data like a stamm is out of the question . We fly by the seat of our pants!

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6150868]
Bayhawk! What wonderful news! Lucky you getting to follow Stamms etc. for those of us whose chose to breed “hunters” however, ascertaining data like a stamm is out of the question . We fly by the seat of our pants![/QUOTE]

Hunters are different but look how much better you could breed them or buy them if you had knowledge of the stamm ? Could be a competitive advantage for you ?

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6150840]
I interpreted this more figuratively than literally… I think the point is that your memory and knowledge of a mare doesn’t poof the minute the mare is out of your sight. [/QUOTE]

Thank you ~ yes, that is what I meant. :slight_smile:

I would like to touch on breeding as it relates to the hunters here in the US. We are the only country who seeks the type of horse who is best suited for the hunters. All other top breeders around the world are starting to jump on that wagon because like it or not there are horses who come out that fit the bill!

Some of the top breeding lines in the world have produced horses for the hunter divisions…so what does that mean? Although specialized, the horses being produced should have no labels! I have seen dressage horses jumping in the 1.40m+, I have seen top jumper horses move to the hunters and I have seen hunters swing between the jumper and hunter divisions.

Again I will say, that your horse can come from anywhere, and not to count any of them out for the different possibilities available in horse sport world wide. Fundamentally, breeders choose to produce. Plain and simple. My top bred mare may produce anything as far as I am concerned. My goal is to produce the best outcome possible, and my horse will show me the way.

There is no such thing as flying by the seat of your pants unless you have no goals, no resources for information and you have no real reason for doing what your doing. Eyes wide open…whether you’re buying, producing in sport, or breeding. You have to be conscious about the animal itself and what he/she is capable of doing.

I think it is really important to have at least a couple of daughters, ride them, and breed them, hopefully a few times, to see how they produce before making the decision on who to keep. The best producer is not necessarily the “better” mare if you are simply evaluating them breed-show style. Your ability to make the decision starts to crystallize after breeding with a particular family for multiple generations.

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6148803]
I was commenting on another post today on another board. It was about a foal who was born 3 months late, yes that’s right. He was born but very small but he did everything right. Still he was put down as he wasn’t viable. The girl who did the foaling said these decisions need to be made and that it doesn’t really bother her anymore. Now I get in breeding these decisions but at the same time when it doesn’t bother me anymore I would stop breeding. Because at the end of the day no matter what the breeding it is a living breathing creature we are putting here. That’s how I will always feel. The second I forget that it’s time to hang up my foal halters.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Well said, Terri.I agree completely.

Late to the party here, but… here’s is my two cents anyhow :slight_smile:
I have retained several fillies from my best and favorite mares, and barring issues, all of which will be incorporated into my breeding program at some point when they are of age. I see all of them as equal or better quality than their dams, and I have high expectations for each and every one of them.

One in particular was a long time in coming~ Between the previous owner/breeder and myself, her dam had produced 10 colts and just 1 filly. When her 2011 baby came out with girl parts, I was THRILLED!!! The mare is getting up there in age, and while she is still breeding sound and quite happy, I know her number of future foals will be limited. She is a wonderful, premium mare, top producer and I was incredibly fortunate that her previous owner ‘culled’ her, as their breeding program was changing direction. She is an incredible individual and I consider myself blessed that the previous owner no longer wanted/needed her, and decided to cull her from their program. Her filly is genuinely lovely and I will be proud to keep her in my barn!

In response to the posts about selling/culling mares, if a breeder changes direction, downsizes or simply feels that a particular mare no longer suits their breeding goals or program, there is absolutely nothing wrong with finding that mare a new situation. As it has been previously stated, one breeders cull could be the next breeders gem. I am not ashamed to say I am one of the breeders who have sold or leased out particular mares that I didn’t plan on breeding again, or didn’t plan on breeding again anytime soon. I don’t consider those mares thrown away or cast off. They went to carefully selected people who had a plan for them, wanted what they brought to the table in regards to bloodlines, type, etc. Why not let a mare that I don’t plan to breed back go to someone who wants what they can offer?

As my own program shifts/evolves, etc., my mare base will gradually shift and evolve as well. And since I don’t have a need to breed every mare I have standing in my pastures, why not let them go to folks who want ‘what they are’ for their own breeding goals?

On a side note… Not all breeders can or want to afford the young and best-of-the-best mares… so older mares and/or quality “culls” from another program can be a fabulous opportunity, if you are willing to take on the risks and special needs of an old broodie, etc.

We don’t all breed for the same type, breed, discipline, etc., so it is completely understandable that what we seek in a broodmare, or which fillies we decide to retain, may vary from breeder to breeder :slight_smile:

darkhorse - well said!

I agree, nice post darkhorse.

^^ I agree too, well said, darkhorse. :yes:

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6150911]
Hunters are different but look how much better you could breed them or buy them if you had knowledge of the stamm ? Could be a competitive advantage for you ?[/QUOTE]

I agree with you - I really do - and you know I adore the Holsteiners - but if one starts with a Hanoverian and then and then - well, we shall see how it goes :winkgrin:

Developing your mare lines is something very commonly done in Germany and part of the reason they are so successful. They breed with generations in mind. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your lines really helps to make better breeding decisions.

This is something we have always set into place (even though fillies in our program are a rarity). We bought 3 strong mare lines in Germany and imported them with the intent of maintaining those lines here. My first keeper filly is about to turn 4 and she is exactly what we had hoped for when we bred her mother. She was the USDF HOY as a weanling filly and now under saddle she is proving that she is more than just a pretty face. She has an amazing work ethic (just like her mother) and is an absolute joy to work with. We have big goals for this young lady and intend to keep her under-saddle for as long as her mother is breeding. I suspect there may be some ET foals in her future as well.

Our other two mare lines have young fillies coming up behind her. Thank Goodness we finally broke the colt-streak! :yes:

I have three broodmares that are replacements for their moms. One dam I sold, the other two died. I only do this with "producing " damlines. In one case the mare is not quite as correct as her dam but she is making even better babies. In another the dam was one of my favorites, the daughter is by a fabulous stallion, won every show she entered in dressage or jumping, and is popping out offspring that are even better than she is. In the third case I sold both the dam and grand-dam because I had a replacement that was better than the original. The granddaughter produced a phenominal foal who won’t be a riding horse because of a pasture injury, but will be added to the breeding pool as well.
It is not uncommon to see breeders in Germany selling mares after a few breeding seasons and keeping replacement daughters. Personally I love mares that consistantly produce and value them above the fancier, fashionable pedigree mares that are inconsistant in their production or that don’t produce as good a horse as they are. There is nothing like going to a breed show and seeing three or four generations still active on the same farm.

[QUOTE=Canterbury Court;6165004]
I have three broodmares that are replacements for their moms. One dam I sold, the other two died. I only do this with "producing " damlines. In one case the mare is not quite as correct as her dam but she is making even better babies. In another the dam was one of my favorites, the daughter is by a fabulous stallion, won every show she entered in dressage or jumping, and is popping out offspring that are even better than she is. In the third case I sold both the dam and grand-dam because I had a replacement that was better than the original. The granddaughter produced a phenominal foal who won’t be a riding horse because of a pasture injury, but will be added to the breeding pool as well.
It is not uncommon to see breeders in Germany selling mares after a few breeding seasons and keeping replacement daughters. Personally I love mares that consistantly produce and value them above the fancier, fashionable pedigree mares that are inconsistant in their production or that don’t produce as good a horse as they are. There is nothing like going to a breed show and seeing three or four generations still active on the same farm.[/QUOTE]

The breeders I know in Germany don’t sell their mare after a few foals or a few seasons except for two reasons usually. 1…they got offered a ton of money or 2…the mare doesn’t produce.

I won’t buy breeding mares from the Germans that have had a few foals. They usually know something we don’t.

There are of course exceptions to this but I would need to know and trust the breeder involved.