Returning to hogsfuel/wood chips - am I crazy?

[Jax]

About 10 years ago we transitioned my little 4 horse barn from incredibly broken down wood chips to sand. Sand was the clear winner for all the reasons we all know, wood chips break down and turn into mud like crazy, sand is much better for the feet, etc etc.

BUT I find myself in a situation where I’m considering returning to wood chips for 2 of the paddocks.
I’m on the west coast of Canada where all it does is rain all winter long. I cannot overstate the rain and how constant it feels. Do wood chips turn into mud eventually? Yes, of course. Does sand turn into soupy slop? Also yes. So at this point I’m not really seeing the benefits of the sand (and didn’t, even when the sand was brand new).

The sand was last refilled 6 years ago. It should have been done every 2-3 years, but finances and other situations have precluded this. It’s now at a somewhat dire point as far as I’m concerned. The two paddocks in question are about the size of a medium riding ring (which they used to be). At this point one is completely under water, mostly huge puddles, and the other is a bit of mud, puddles, and some dry parts under the trees. We have a drainage ditch along the front and the backs of the paddocks, but the paddocks have effectively become lower than the ditches, so nothing drains away. Building them back up and sloping them towards the ditches are what will make the biggest difference.

Why I’m considering going back:

• Sand (in whatever form) is EXPENSIVE here. Because one of the paddocks has become so low we would need a lot of sand to fill it in, and other isn't much better. Ideally we'd do the fabric lining, drainage rock, and then sand, but that gets even pricier, instead of just filling in a lot of sand. Wood chips are even cheaper for labour and costs, we just need them generally spread out, and then I can do a lot of the nooks and crannies myself (which is literally impossible with wet sand).
• At the absolute most I'll have this property for another two-ish years (ie this winter and maybe 2 more, likely just 1). This means that disposal of broken down wood chips will be not-my-problem, which is a huge factor for most people considering them.
• This footing is for the paddocks of two retired boys who live outside 24/7, so a couple of other factors are: [LIST]
• Their feet (farrier says anything drier would be an improvement, and if I use keratex liberally he won't want to kill me for putting in wood chips).
• Their comfort (they've both got various degrees of arthritis, so they would like something soft-ish, without slogging through mud). We never really could get the sand to be soft enough that I liked it, and they're only getting older now.

[/LIST] I'm waiting on numbers from the contractor, but it's looking like wood chips will be about half the cost, and I'll be able to put way more of them in. The contractor (who regularly does this sort of work in my area) thinks wood chips could be a good solution for me, but I'm just so nervous about making that call. If I was looking at being here long term I would make the investment for sand, but right now we're playing with money I don't have, and there is basically zero chance of staying more than 2-3 years.

Am I absolutely insane? Are there things I’m forgetting about life with wood chips?

[Scribbler]

I am also on the Canadian west coast. I am at a self board barn where everyone does their own run out paddocks so its an excellent Petrie dish for paddock experiments.

My observations: like you experienced, when old hog fuel is dug out and replaced by sand, the paddock looks amazing. For about a year. Then it needs redoing.

Also in general sand does not drain as well as hog fuel in good condition.

My preference is hog fuel with properly installed drainage meaning french drain set up to move water plus drainage rock and landscaping cloth. And then the hog fuel renewed periodically. My runout was a swamp until I had pipes installed. My neighbor has fresh sand but no drainage, and her sand is currently six inches higher than my paddock. Her paddock has rain puddles and pee puddles, and mine has a good compact surface.

Our barn also gets hogfuel by the ton so we can keep our paddocks fresh and topped up. My horse poops almost exclusively outside so I lose hogfuel through cleaning and replace it periodically with a wheelbarrow.

We also have an outdoor allweather riding arena that’s hog fuel and the footing is excellent year around except when it freezes.

On the other hand I am sure even my paddock will have a few puddles during this current monsoon!

Anyhow, look to your drainage first.

[PNWjumper]

I do hogsfuel in my pastures every year (I’m in the Seattle area).

Does it eventually break down and turn to mud? Of course. We scrape the pastures every fall to start over. Good hogsfuel gets me 4-5 months of no mud. The only caveat is the “good” part. I used to have a guy who brought me coarsely ground hogsfuel that had been done the same day. That stuff lasted forever. He quit, however, and I ordered it from a big mill this last year. What he brought had obviously been composting for a while, and the lifespan was dramatically shorter.

But still, it’s an easy and effective “patch” in our mucky yucky winters! I was super excited to get a week of frozen temps last week, but now that we’re back to wet I need to get on top of ordering my annual loads.

[Foxtrot_s]

Yes, you are a little insane!!! “Sorry” - it is a Canadian thing.

40 years of fighting mud in Langley BC - we must have done one of everything.

The top soil was removed.

Then different loads of hog fuel (which - as you say - got punched through and turned to a rotten mud stuff, collecting more wet stuff. It was difficult to use the fork on, too.

So then I had the brilliant idea of putting in cedar chips…great at first, but eventually they went the same way.
But cleaning the poops out of those chips was an apple by apple daily effort to put them into the Futurefork and then dump the manure leaving as many chips behind as possible - because they do not rot down easily.

So next thing was removing all the organic material and replacing that, on top of the clay hardpan, with loads of road mulch and on top of that the crushed limestone, which goes by several different names, it seems. This was left for a period of time to get tamped down by the horses and the rain.

THEN - the real stroke of brilliance was the load of yellow cedar sawdust (or Cypress by some).

The limestone drained perfectly because it was somewhat domed, very slightly. The horses’ feet were hard, and the pile of sawdust was pawed, rolled in (chiropractic for horses), sunbathed in, napped in , and played in. This stuff did not rot, had a wonderful smell and lasted for years. When it was eventually wheeled away we had another pile dropped off - didn’t need to level it or anything - the horses did that.

So that was our trial and error story that worked for us… eventually.

Loved that yellow cedar sawdust, so did the horses.

[NancyM]

The hogfuel may sound cheaper to put in, but taking it out again can be a killer. If run off poisons a neighbour’s well, YOU get a court judgement against you, and must remove hogfuel, and pay to fix your neighbour’s poisoned water. Let alone your own water source. I had a friend who had a $100,000 judgement against him for this. It was a killer for him.

IDK what the answer is for you. We did the hogfuel when we were first in Aldergrove, then took it all out, and did the sand thing. We had drainage pipes under it all… it didn’t make any difference, the volume of water that fell out of the sky pooled in the sand. Flooded paddocks threatened to back up into the stalls when things were bad. Horses stood in stalls by choice, refusing to go outside and move around. Impaction colic happened. High humidity in pouring rain for weeks on end, just above freezing temperatures, horses chilled to the bone. $$$$ for bedding, $$$$ for feed, $$$$ for manure removal. We moved away, to a drier climate. This has solved the mud issue, we now grow our own feed and have plenty of year round pasture, manure is a valuable resource, no stalls needed. Dry cold in the winter, much colder temperatures but low humidity, and no mud. Horses outdoors year round, running and playing together in the snow. We got tired of beating the head against the wall, and paying huge money for everything trying to fix it.

The only farms that are “functional” in winter in the Fraser Valley without mud issues are those who are built on GRAVEL PITS, deep natural gravel deposits. I know of two farms like this, ours was not one of them LOL.

If you want to own horses, it just seems to me that the best idea is to do it in a “horse friendly” environment. Cheaper for the human, and better for the horses. The farm next door to us is for sale, just sayin’.

[Scribbler]

@NancyM

The hogfuel may sound cheaper to put in, but taking it out again can be a killer. If run off poisons a neighbour’s well, YOU get a court judgement against you, and must remove hogfuel, and pay to fix your neighbour’s poisoned water. Let alone your own water source. I had a friend who had a $100,000 judgement against him for this. It was a killer for him.

IDK what the answer is for you. We did the hogfuel when we were first in Aldergrove, then took it all out, and did the sand thing. We had drainage pipes under it all… it didn’t make any difference, the volume of water that fell out of the sky pooled in the sand. Flooded paddocks threatened to back up into the stalls when things were bad. Horses stood in stalls by choice, refusing to go outside and move around. Impaction colic happened. High humidity in pouring rain for weeks on end, just above freezing temperatures, horses chilled to the bone. $$$$ for bedding, $$$$ for feed, $$$$ for manure removal. We moved away, to a drier climate. This has solved the mud issue, we now grow our own feed and have plenty of year round pasture, manure is a valuable resource, no stalls needed. Dry cold in the winter, much colder temperatures but low humidity, and no mud. Horses outdoors year round, running and playing together in the snow. We got tired of beating the head against the wall, and paying huge money for everything trying to fix it.

The only farms that are “functional” in winter in the Fraser Valley without mud issues are those who are built on GRAVEL PITS, deep natural gravel deposits. I know of two farms like this, ours was not one of them LOL.

If you want to own horses, it just seems to me that the best idea is to do it in a “horse friendly” environment. Cheaper for the human, and better for the horses. The farm next door to us is for sale, just sayin’.

Yeah, the Lower Mainland/ PNW is really not great horse country for these reasons. You are right that underlying terrain is the key factor. But much maybe most of the agricultural land in the Fraser Valley is in the flood plain behind dykes and has a high water table.

At this very moment we are in the middle of a rain storm predicted to dump 90 mm in 24 hours. Thats 9 cm or almost 4 inches. Streets and even the freeways are flooding.

Our riding club built and maintains a functional all weather hog fuel arena in an actual bog. But that took pipies and gravel and a fair bit of cash.

I think being further inland in the dry belt makes sense for breeders and trainers that aren’t dependent on city clientele, but those of us with local careers are stuck trying to make the climate work for us.

[Jax]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful and detailed comments!

And I totally agree about this just being just a terrible place to try to keep horses. My area is literally below sea level, our ditches are currently flooding back onto the roads, and there’s nowhere for the water to go. We haven’t had the Fraser River actually flood us, but when a king tide coincides with a storm it’s really ugly.

At this point in time I don’t have a choice, the horses live where they live and like all of you I’m trying to make the best of it. With last night’s rain the sheds are now flooded too, and there’s basically one little patch under the trees where the horses are hiding out. I feel literally sick over it, and keep having to remind myself that they’re animals, and they’ll be fine.

NancyM I guess I should consider myself lucky that I don’t have to worry about wells in my area, that sounds like a nightmare I never even considered.

Ultimately it’s going to depend on what my contractor thinks is the best and most manageable solution, I was absolutely floored when he said wood chips might be the solution, it just felt wrong! But without the concern of removing them every couple years…
I’ve just never before been in a situation where I have to tell myself ‘screw the future, it’s the immediate that’s a problem’.

(And if this work gets done in a reasonable time frame I’ll be sure to share some before and afters)

[Jax]

Thank you all for the thoughtful and detailed answers!

With the rain last night my sheds are now under water too, and I feel literally sick with guilt for my poor horses. There’s a small dry patch under the trees, and I keep having to remind myself that they’re animals and they’ll survive a few days. Hopefully the contractor can get this done before Christmas, and if the rain were to die off that would also help…

Living in an area literally below sea level = not a great idea. Our ditches are currently flooded over the roads, and there’s no relief from it when the water has nowhere to go. It makes me feel a bit better that the rest of Vancouver is also struggling today, because of everywhere in the world we should be really prepared for serious rain.

But at this point my horses live where they live, and that’s not changing for the next couple of years, so I’ll have to do the best I can with the contractor. I’m still getting over the shock of someone even suggesting wood chips, so I really appreciated all your opinions! (Also wow, very glad I don’t have a well! That sounds like some drama I don’t need in my life!)

(And if we can get this work done in a timely manner I’ll have to come back and post before and afters)

[Jax]

Thank you all for the thoughtful and detailed answers!

With the rain last night my sheds are now under water too, and I feel literally sick with guilt for my poor horses. There’s a small dry patch under the trees, and I keep having to remind myself that they’re animals and they’ll survive a few days. Hopefully the contractor can get this done before Christmas, and if the rain were to die off that would also help…

Living in an area literally below sea level = not a great idea. Our ditches are currently flooded over the roads, and there’s no relief from it when the water has nowhere to go. It makes me feel a bit better that the rest of Vancouver is also struggling today, because of everywhere in the world we should be really prepared for serious rain.

But at this point my horses live where they live, and that’s not changing for the next couple of years, so I’ll have to do the best I can with the contractor. I’m still getting over the shock of someone even suggesting wood chips, so I really appreciated all your opinions! (Also, wow, I’m very glad I don’t have to deal with the potential drama of a well!)

(And if we can get this work done in a timely manner I’ll have to come back and post before and afters)

[Jax]

Thank you all for the thoughtful and detailed answers!

With the rain last night my sheds are now under water too, and I feel literally sick with guilt for my poor horses. There’s a small dry patch under the trees, and I keep having to remind myself that they’re animals and they’ll survive a few days. Hopefully the contractor can get this done before Christmas, and if the rain were to die off that would also help…

Living in an area literally below sea level = not a great idea. Our ditches are currently flooded over the roads, and there’s no relief from it when the water has nowhere to go. It makes me feel a bit better that the rest of Vancouver is also struggling today, because of everywhere in the world we should be really prepared for serious rain.

But at this point my horses live where they live, and that’s not changing for the next couple of years, so I’ll have to do the best I can with the contractor. I’m still getting over the shock of someone even suggesting wood chips, so I really appreciated all your opinions! (Also, wow, I’m very glad I don’t have to deal with the potential drama of a well!)

(And if we can get this work done in a timely manner I’ll have to come back and post before and afters)
​

[Foxtrot_s]

We are on clay and we took all the topsoil off, leaving the clay, slightly mounded to perimeter drains. Then the road mulch has bigger rocks and drains well, then the limestone, packs, but the rain drains off it too and within an hour of a storm it is drained again. Sand is a no-go, because the fines just plug up the sand lower down. It took a while to get it figured out and the farrier said my horse’ feet had never been better. We were not up to moving just for that…
My horses are not allowed on their green pasture until after late April/early may, hence the need for drylot turnout. They have stalls, but are in/out and rarely use them… They have their poo pile (furthest from their eating area) and it is a peach to scoop every day. Their green pasture is mowed and stays green all year until it is time to preserve it from the hooves and rain. I am glad I don’t board them in little turnout paddocks with no hair to hair connection with a buddy…

Oh, and geo tex was a waste of money - it just got punched up and tangled.

[NancyM]

@Scribbler

At this very moment we are in the middle of a rain storm predicted to dump 90 mm in 24 hours. Thats 9 cm or almost 4 inches. Streets and even the freeways are flooding.

.

At this very moment, we have full sun, all day long LOL! In the rainshadow of the coastal mountains. I hope you guys have your waterwings on. Find a way… evacuate!

[fanfayre]

@Scribbler and @Foxtrot’s
Same conditions over here mid-island! But at least it’s not White Stuff!!! I hate white stuff :disgust:(and so does my horse).
I’m lucky that my boarding barn (I’m the only boarder) has fields for the girls to come and go all day and night, so we don’t get too much mud either. Their stalls are a little raised so not much mud gets tracked into their stalls either, and there’s a 10’ overhang between stall and field they can stand under that’s not muddy. One day I may bring in some sand or hogfuel to spread under the overhang but that may have to wait for a while yet, and the girls don’t seem to mind at all.
I’m lucky that my BO also came from the Lower Mainland (Delta barns) so was prepared for the conditions

[Foxtrot_s]

But, but, but - I don’t like the cold in the interior…not that the rain is much of a trade-off, but I love the moderate temperatures, not too hot in summer, not too cold in the winter. Close to all amenities, too. Very active horse crowd.

[Jax]

Thank you all for the thoughtful and detailed answers!

With the rain last night my sheds are now under water too, and I feel literally sick with guilt for my poor horses. There’s a small dry patch under the trees, and I keep having to remind myself that they’re animals and they’ll survive a few days. Hopefully the contractor can get this done before Christmas, and if the rain were to peter out that would also help…

Living in an area literally below sea level = not a great idea. Our ditches are currently flooded over the roads, and there’s no relief from it when the water has nowhere to go. It makes me feel a bit better that the rest of Vancouver is also struggling today, because of everywhere in the world we should be really prepared for serious rain.

But at this point my horses live where they live, and that’s not changing for the next couple of years, so I’ll have to do the best I can with the contractor. I’m still getting over the shock of someone even suggesting wood chips, so I really appreciated all your opinions! (Also, wow, I’m very glad I don’t have to deal with the potential drama of a well!)

(And if we can get this work done in a timely manner I’ll have to come back and post before and afters)
​

[Foxtrot_s]

Just a point - sand is not preferable when near a feeding station.

Do it right and do it once.

[Scribbler]

I also think total space is a huge factor in mitigating mud. Decades ago I kept my retired pony for several years in a herd of about 5 horses that had 40 acres of weedy bushy pasture to themselves. The land was below sea level and behind dykes and had huge ditches everywhere. The horses thrived because the rough pasture was enough for them and I don’t recall any serious mud because they were spread out over such a big area. But 5 horses in say one acre is going to chew that paddock right up to mud.

Two years ago we got mega snow down here. Our barn was iced in for 3 months, even after much of the city was clear. It was very heavy going, we couldn’t even get the manure dumpster hauled away. Rain is not the worst!

[Foxtrot_s]

I believe you - every year on COTH there are misery threads of the brave ones amongst you who fight the snow and ice all.winter.long. We hardly get any snow here and if we do, it goes quite quickly - into mud!

[Jax]

@Foxtrot's

Do it right and do it once.

I completely agree but the thing is I truly only have 2-3 years here. I didn’t stress it much in my original post because it’s complicated, but the facts are I’m definitely out by 2021 and any wood chips or sand that I put in will have no effect on the next people.

So it’s not me saying “oh well in 2-3 years I’ll come up with $40,000 to do it all properly again”, I’ll really be gone. Trying to figure out the bare minimum that can get me to the finish line is about as much as I can handle right now unfortunately, and is just a really odd situation to be in for me.

[Jax]

@Scribbler

But 5 horses in say one acre is going to chew that paddock right up to mud.

Oof you’ve nailed me/my property/my entire situation right there. 4 horses on 1 acre (but there’s two small houses, a front yard, and a barn so really 1/2 acre for the paddocks)… I feel lucky that my horses have the turnout they do at just bigger than a round pen size each, which makes them about 3-4 times the average size for this neighbourhood…

And then we all complain about the horrible drainage and footing!