Review of judges?

[greysfordays]

[QUOTE=MHM;8296282]
I beg to differ.

It’s extremely easy to form an opinion at the gate, as we’ve seen here countless times over the years.

The difficult part is forming an accurate opinion at the gate. :lol:[/QUOTE]

This is SO true. By and large, I’ve found most judging at the A level to be quite fair. Sometimes I’ve won a hack when my horse broke to the trot in the canter on the right side and the judge missed it bc I was already pinned on top. Sometimes I’ve felt my horse was better than the winner. It really all evens out if you show enough.

This might not be true on the east coast, but here on the west coast, I’ve noticed some judges when considering two similar trips or hacks will pin a little higher based on the “type” they like best. We don’t really mind in our barn bc we have a buffet of hunter types from the more thoroughbred-ey to the slow moving, loping giant (that would be my beast).

That said, they don’t seem to consistently pin that type over another when the quality of the trips is noticeably different. Do they make mistakes sometimes…absolutely. But I think their job is very challenging, particularly given how many riders they may see in a single day.

My trainer has a couple judges that he just will not show in front of. That’s our choice. To me, choosing not to show somewhere and writing the show management if you take issue with a judge for clear faults (not noticing is someone is off course more than once or breaking to the trot in a course and still pinning well) is FAR BETTER than a yelp for judges.

But we wouldn’t skip a show bc a judge liked one type of horse more than another. We just know we have to work a little harder sometimes to get him or her to like us! :lol:

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=AmmyByNature;8295937]
We have only your words to go on, so when you say something that is uneducated, we assume that you are uneducated. Your comments about incorrect leads are uneducated, as are your opinions about the consensus at the in gate.

No one called you an idiot - but I have no idea what else you’re planning on posting today.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! OP, I am not being a “little sensitive” in regards to the subject. You eluded to a simple change on course shouldn’t be penalized as much as a no change in lead and also stated that some judges have a “habit” of pinning horses who have gone off course. You also stated that if the consensus at the the in-gate by the trainers was one opinion and the judge had another opinion…that the judge was wrong! Those uneducated comments lead to us assuming you’re not entirely educated on what happens in the hunter ring. Unfortunately, we can only assume based on the comments you posted. In your next post, you stated that “I am, however, well aware that both are major faults in a hunter class per the Rule HU136.2. That is the point - both are equally bad under the rule”. I’m sorry, but no they are NOT equally bad. One weighs much heavier regarding percentage points than the other.

No point in continuing to argue with an expert though, so I’ll leave it at that.

[IPEsq]

To add… Look at the entire list of major faults listed in the rule. If you think they should all be scored the same, well, you’re wrong. For example, a refusal will lower your score a bit more than a rub or “jumping out of form”.

[kalidascope]

A presumably anonymous, subjective, and no doubt reactive, assessment of subjective judging by people who know less than the judge? What could possibly go wrong :D.

[alteringwego]

I keep a list on my computer of who I have shown under, the ones that liked me, the ones that thought I had plenty of room for growth.

I would love to see a knock off though of the RateMyProfessors site though. Professors get a chili pepper if they’re fun to look at. Imagine which ones would get peppers vs ice cubes!

[Soaponarope]

Actually there is a very good site for you: http://askthehorseshowjudge.com/

It’s really informative, and I looked at it quite a bit when my daughter first started doing A shows. It’s a lot of top judges talking about what they look for right down to the rider’s body type in eq. DD’s been judged by almost all the judges on there and I’ve found them to be very true to their words. There are also some good workshops and interviews on USEF Network. Very good. Betty Oare appreciates a hunter that can gallop and or move above a snail’s pace (bless her!), Sue Ashe is a stickler about unconventional tack, etc. That short guy with the piercing blue eyes, forget his name, will give you a 40 if you forget your gloves in the eq.

I don’t think you would gain much by random reviews. A lot would be like Rate my Professor, comments by ignorant people who have an ax to grind or feel they were slighted. But listen to the big judges talk and you will learn a lot.

[gottagrey]

some judges also have certain pet peeves that they find more fault with than others. Are you talking about a local show or a rated show or both? Sometimes a particular class may have no real winners and then it gets hard - do you pin the horse that left out strides over the horse that trotted corners?

And I completely agree about seeing the course from the judges perspective vs standing at the ingate or a different angle. Some will think they nailed that class but they didn’t see the horse that had a better round(s). And then sometimes the judging is completely baffling. I will never ever forget a hunter class where my trainer was riding my horse (greenie) he had several refusals, judge never called her out so she kept going. I think in total he might’ve had 4 or 5. Next horse was the trainer I got my horse from. He comes in jumps 3 jumps, then horse stands up on 2 legs, won’t go forward, up on 2 again, trainer exits ring. HE placed over me and didn’t finish the course and what’s worse is we placed above riders with NO refusals! It was embarrassing. I was on the show committee (local association, unrated) and told our board that judge (“R”) should stick to stewarding and shouldn’t be hired again. I was volunteer ingate at a show at my barn where the judge didn’t even pin half the class - too dangerous. Im sure some of those riders felt she was awful and unfair but when the judge felt it was wrong to reward them for such dangerous riding (that’s a whole nuther thread)
Our association sometimes kept a list of “do not hire again” and “we love them, they love us”.

[BeeHoney]

It’s hard to complain about judging without coming across as sour grapes. But I think it is interesting to sit very close to where the judges are sitting and evaluate trips on your own and compare how your placings compare. Sometimes I really just don’t like the judging. The two things that bother me the most: some judges have a preference for the absolute quietest horse, no matter if it looks like it is about to fall over every time it lands from a jump. To me, that looks uncomfortable, I wouldn’t want to jump that horse. That’s just my opinion.

Secondly, some judges seem to overlook faults when they are made by a well known pair. Did they truly not see the fault or were they just expecting that pair to have a great round and that made them miss seeing the fault? Or, alternatively, did they think that the horse was so excellent in every other way that despite having a hard rub or a swap in front of a fence right in front of them the horse still deserved to place over horses with more bland but fault free rounds? The subjective judging of quality for sure has a place in the hunter ring, it’s just a question of how much. And of course, I always wonder if the “correct” horse actually had a fault that I missed seeing that dropped it back in the placings.

Straight out errors in judging are going to occur–judges are only human. I’m sure their accuracy does fade after judging a bazillion trips over the same 2-3 courses over the stretch of a hot summer day. That’s frustrating for a competitor, but I don’t know what you can do about that.

[CHT]

Having a public review of judges could make it harder for judges to remain impartial. Judges may then strive to be popular rather than correct/accurate.

If the judge is not following rules or truly that bad, there are ways to complain to the show or governing body

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8295633]
Does anyone know of a website that posts reviews/comments on the performance of judges? Not looking for nasty but intel; e.g., “this judge will penalize a simple lead change far higher than maintaining the wrong lead around the entire turn.” It would also be nice to know that a certain judge(s) seem to have a habit of pinning riders despite their having gone off course. Positive reviews would be helpful too.

FYI - I do not have any particular judge in mind at the moment. Its worse than that. I keep observing poor judging; judging that does not seem to conform to the standards in the rule book; judges that don’t seem to know an equitation class is judged on different standards than a hunter class. Yes, I know hunters and equitation have a subjective component. But there are some objective standards too. And when the judge’s opinion frequently doesn’t comport to the consensus opinion of the trainers at the in-gate, the judge’s opinions are wrong. It would be nice to get some feedback mechanism so that good judges get rewarded and bad judges get skipped.

Anyway, if you know of a rating website or other place to find such info about judges, I would love to hear about it.[/QUOTE]

I do not know of a site and I think it would just be a snark-fest of mostly poor sports who don’t understand that sometimes you win and deserve it, sometimes you lose and don’t deserve (etc).

I, too, made the assumption that these are local level shows based on what the OP posted. A judge that doesn’t know the difference between Eq and hunters? Not likely at rated or bigger association shows.

[BestLegUp]

Well that was interesting. I thought I made it clear I was not upset or disputing that a simple change can be pinned below a counter canter. But why bother reading what I write: just tell me I have the wrong lead rule. As for different major faults having different weights - I agree. My point was that the Rule book doesn’t mandate that. In practice does a refusal count more than a counter canter - ah yeah. Wouldn’t you like to know if a judge had a different view, yet one that was permitted under the rule?? That was part of the genesis of my question. For the curious, I rode Medal-Maclay and went to the national medal finals and have some idea about what a good trip in the equitation and hunter ring looks like.

While I can’t respond to all of the nonsense, let me close with last week’s AA show. In one ring, a girl went off course and pinned second in the class. In another ring, the equitation on the flat winner trotted on the wrong diagonal half way around the arena. The second place rider was on the wrong lead for half way of the arena. There were 10 in the class. The other eight, while not perfect, did not make these basic mistakes. The trainer of the first place girl had to tell her that the judge was wrong and that learning her diagonals does matter. So Daventry, was that judge’s opinion really worth a dam? This is a AA show. These kinds of situations are far too common at this and other rated shows. Can we stop with “the judges are never wrong” and “its only an opinion” excuse. There are rules and standards and conventions (many of you have accused me of not knowing them). When judges don’t follow them, it is called bad judging. When they do it is called good judging.

Back to my question - I see that the answer is “no”, there is no public review of judges in the hunter-equitation world. Special thanks to the one poster that pointed out a review site for dressage judges. That is all I was asking.

.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8297074]

While I can’t respond to all of the nonsense, let me close with last week’s AA show. In one ring, a girl went off course and pinned second in the class. In another ring, the equitation on the flat winner trotted on the wrong diagonal half way around the arena. The second place rider was on the wrong lead for half way of the arena. There were 10 in the class. The other eight, while not perfect, did not make these basic mistakes. The trainer of the first place girl had to tell her that the judge was wrong and that learning her diagonals does matter. So Daventry, was that judge’s opinion really worth a dam? This is a AA show. These kinds of situations are far too common at this and other rated shows. Can we stop with “the judges are never wrong” and “its only an opinion” excuse. There are rules and standards and conventions (many of you have accused me of not knowing them). When judges don’t follow them, it is called bad judging. When they do it is called good judging.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think a single person on this thread said that judges are never wrong. :rolleyes: It IS just an opinion of what a particular judge sees in a particular class. While there are standards/conventions, a single judge cannot see the entire ring for the entire class. Things get overlooked now and then; it could be bad judging or it could just be luck for that particular rider. If it was endemic to a specific judge, complete the feedback form.

I was in a flat class once where my horse spooked a bit in the far corner at jump foliage that blew right as we passed. Horse broke from the canter for one step and when I looked at the judge he was looking right at us. I saw him at the end of the show and he point blank said it was too bad because he had me on top (and it would’ve meant my first champion on that horseas we’d done really well in the o/f). We laughed and moved on. I sure wish he had been looking elsewhere. The judge did a good job that day, but if he’d missed the bobble and placed me first, would it have been bad judging?

[gottagrey]

I think we’ve all experienced shows where judges didn’t seem to be on their game and left shaking our heads. I also remember riding in a small class that the judge apparently felt was beneath him. He didn’t even bother to give us the courtesy of at least pretending to be judging. He pinned the class before we even entered the ring. When it came time for the O/F class again, the winning horse made several mistakes - chipped in, our horses did great. He pinned the better known horse. It was insulting and I never ever showed in front of that inconsiderate person again.

[kalidascope]

Why don’t hunter judges have writers like dressage judges do? That would help with keeping their eyes on the round. I know they have ‘shorthand’ to get it all down but having to write is still a distraction.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8297074]

While I can’t respond to all of the nonsense, let me close with last week’s AA show. In one ring, a girl went off course and pinned second in the class. In another ring, the equitation on the flat winner trotted on the wrong diagonal half way around the arena. The second place rider was on the wrong lead for half way of the arena. There were 10 in the class. The other eight, while not perfect, did not make these basic mistakes.
.[/QUOTE]

Regarding the off course- if the ring was running open cards, this may have been either a simple mistake by the judge or by on lookers who thought the trip was for a different class.

Regarding pinning wrong diagonal and wrong lead, when judging on the flat, especially in equitation, the judge is focusing on individual riders and their position, not on the whole ring. When doing that, it is possible for things to occur in the ring that are obvious to spectators but missed by the judge.

After all, if the judge didn’t see it, it didn’t happen

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8297074]
Well that was interesting. I thought I made it clear I was not upset or disputing that a simple change can be pinned below a counter canter. But why bother reading what I write: just tell me I have the wrong lead rule. As for different major faults having different weights - I agree. My point was that the Rule book doesn’t mandate that. In practice does a refusal count more than a counter canter - ah yeah. Wouldn’t you like to know if a judge had a different view, yet one that was permitted under the rule??
.[/QUOTE]

Also wanted to comment that I am not sure why this is such a big issue, especially at an AA show. If I had any of the major faults, missed lead, break in gait, dangerous jump, rail down, refusal, etc I would assume I would (and should) be out of the ribbons so I wouldn’t worry about which problem the judged deemed the worst.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8297074]

Back to my question - I see that the answer is “no”, there is no public review of judges in the hunter-equitation world. Special thanks to the one poster that pointed out a review site for dressage judges. That is all I was asking.
.[/QUOTE]

Dressage Detective isn’t really a “review” site though. It lets you search licensed dressage judges and see what their qualifications are (judging level, if they’re also a steward, etc) and what their average scoring has been at each level, what states they judge in, and the number of tests at that level they’ve judged. Which is possible because you’ve got actual numerical scores for each test, which is the same test every show.

It does not tell you what you seem to be interested in, which is things like “prefers a clean simple change over a counter canter” or “pinned a kid that went off course,” and it doesn’t show feedback “reviews” from riders who have ridden for them.

[MintHillFarm]

[QUOTE=MHM;8296282]
I beg to differ.

It’s extremely easy to form an opinion at the gate, as we’ve seen here countless times over the years.

The difficult part is forming an accurate opinion at the gate. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Right - I omitted the word “accurate” - thanks!

[snaffle635]

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;8297233]
Also wanted to comment that I am not sure why this is such a big issue, especially at an AA show. If I had any of the major faults, missed lead, break in gait, dangerous jump, rail down, refusal, etc I would assume I would (and should) be out of the ribbons so I wouldn’t worry about which problem the judged deemed the worst.[/QUOTE]

Some AA horse shows have very small divisions. There might only be 5 or 6 in a class, in which case the OP’s example is relevant.

[IPEsq]

There is more to earning your judge’s card than just knowing the rule book (since we are talking AA level judges). There are many hours of apprentice judging. There are judging clinics. This is where the judge learns the rules and reasoning behind whether to pin a missed lead change over a refusal and when and when not to count a rail down in an equitation class as a major fault.

That said, plenty of judges make mistakes. They are human and can only see what’s going on from their chair. This is why you sometimes will have some wildly different scores among 3 judge panels (all sitting at a different spot in the ring). Maybe judge 2 saw horse really hang its knees over jump 5 but it wasn’t so easy to see by judges 1 and 3 because of standards, plants, whatever. And yes, some judges have some pet peeves like one may treat a little head toss and play in the corner as bad as the “kicking out” or bucking fault. And others won’t mind a little bit of exuberance. Perhaps the last item would be something good to know about the judge where a review site could come in handy, but unless you have seen the judge’s card or know the judge personally, how are you really going to know that Susie didn’t pin because her horse played a little in the corner or whether it was the 2 rubs or whether the judge was just not a big fan of Susie’s style that day?

At the end of the day, sometimes you get robbed and sometimes you get gifted, and if you show enough, it evens out. For every time a judge misses a wrong diagonal you have a judge who notices a twisted stirrup leather. And if you show enough, a judge may get to know you as a rider and maybe treat you nicer than they have to and likewise others will not be your biggest fan and that’s how things go with subjective sports.

I agree with the others who have said that if you notice consistent placing by a judge in a manner that seems clearly contrary to the rules, then it would be better to fill out a form than to post a review on the Internet. What good will it do really to post something like hey so and so doesn’t care if you are on the wrong diagonal. Again, unless you’ve seen the card, how do you really know if they care or not or if it was just a mistake or a case of the judge’s eyes being on another rider?